Beating Hack0rs With a Stick Part Deux! - Page 2 - Guild Wars Forums

Darkmane · Apr 05, 2005, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkWasp

Exactly the code is a burden. And the loot bots would zip by it like a 6 legged hyena.

Your going to have to rely on strong anti-cheats to keep the game clear of lammers.

No way there going to let a little code stop them.

I'd like to know how you think the loot bots would zip right through it.

Sin · Apr 05, 2005, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Okay, so I run back (per my previous example) and the party obviously is revived but we can't do anything in the town until we all enter our codes? Ug!!!! Why did Arena.net put in this stupid code?

So here I am with a good team, with all the elements and skills we need to finish the quest. Yet something happened, what I do not know, and won't know, at least not now. See my keyboard won't let me type to my team until I type in a code, and it's on a timer. If I do nothing it will kick me and I lose the team. We got here from the wall quest so I really don't want that to happen. Why did Arena.net put in this stupid code?

Or maybe my keyboard lets me talk to my team but one of the members isn't responding, now everyone is waiting in limbo because we don't wanna type in our code and lose our monk who isn't responding. He gets back, tells us "Sorry i had a phone call." We all tell him no problem...but wait...someone didn't say "np"....Hey dude, Warrior, you there? Hey we are about to type in our codes now so we can keep our team...Dude?....I guess we'll need another warrior. We proceed to type in our codes and half the team leaves. OMG I have to find another team? Why did Arena.net put in this stupid code?

The code is a bad idea for how the game flows. I know you like it, we all like our own ideas. The code interrupts game flow and there are other absolutely undetectable and zero burden methods that do not interfere with game flow and would be far better for the legitimate player than typing a code would ever be.

IceD'Bear · Apr 05, 2005, 08:55 PM // 20:55

I don't like this idea. The title of your topic should be "Beating Hack0rs AND All Other Innocent players With a Stick".

Darkmane · Apr 05, 2005, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sin

Okay, so I run back (per my previous example) and the party obviously is revived but we can't do anything in the town until we all enter our codes? Ug!!!! Why did Arena.net put in this stupid code?

See now.. why does it have to be every player has to wait.. It doesnt. If you typed your code in .. your in .. if you didnt .. your not.. why didnt you? Only you can answer that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sin

So here I am with a good team, with all the elements and skills we need to finish the quest. Yet something happened, what I do not know, and won't know, at least not now. See my keyboard won't let me type to my team until I type in a code, and it's on a timer. If I do nothing it will kick me and I lose the team. We got here from the wall quest so I really don't want that to happen. Why did Arena.net put in this stupid code?

Did I mis-type something in my example of how I imagine it working? Or/do I not understand this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sin

Or maybe my keyboard lets me talk to my team but one of the members isn't responding, now everyone is waiting in limbo because we don't wanna type in our code and lose our monk who isn't responding. He gets back, tells us "Sorry i had a phone call." We all tell him no problem...but wait...someone didn't say "np"....Hey dude, Warrior, you there? Hey we are about to type in our codes now so we can keep our team...Dude?....I guess we'll need another warrior. We proceed to type in our codes and half the team leaves. OMG I have to find another team? Why did Arena.net put in this stupid code?

[If your warrior/monk/whatever is afk for an extended time and you move on without him or don't move on without him/how long do you wait? My team once waited 10 minutes for a guy that just stood there doing nothing, then suddenly popped in and said hey guys i gotta log. See ya. Man i'd like to have kicked him in the head. Waited all that time to go back to town and find a replacement. To me this would be a good 'reality check' for those ready ..... or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sin

The code is a bad idea for how the game flows. I know you like it, we all like our own ideas. The code interrupts game flow and there are other absolutely undetectable and zero burden methods that do not interfere with game flow and would be far better for the legitimate player than typing a code would ever be.

Well, here I will just have to disagree, as for a few seconds of typing in a code to keeping the loot botters out of the game, I think it is an excellent idea.

And as has been stated, maybe they already are prepared for it.

Maybe I'll search the net for an updated macro program and see just how prepared they are myself. Since this is beta.

GuildWars~
Forget what you thought you knew about online gaming.

Darkmane · Apr 05, 2005, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by IceD'Bear

I don't like this idea. The title of your topic should be "Beating Hack0rs AND All Other Innocent players With a Stick".

LOL, I'll be sure to keep that under advisement. Still if your in front of your computer anyway, whats the big deal of taking .5 seconds to type in your code? If the preventative measures are in an effort to keep out the loot bots?

Guildwars~
Forget what you thought you knew about online gaming.

Sin · Apr 05, 2005, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkmane

See now.. why does it have to be every player has to wait.. It doesnt. If you typed your code in .. your in .. if you didnt .. your not.. why didnt you? Only you can answer that.

We waited because we want to stay together as a team and don't want to start the "kick timer" on one of our team members.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkmane

Did I mis-type something in my example of how I imagine it working? Or/do I not understand this.

You are advocating a code without it applying any restraints. To you we can move about or whatever like normal. But have to enter the code at some point. Well how long is the right amount of time and how does no command restraint when it gets into town stop the bot from depositing whatever it got in its storage long before it had to enter the code?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkmane

[If your warrior/monk/whatever is afk for an extended time and you move on without him or don't move on without him/how long do you wait? My team once waited 10 minutes for a guy that just stood there doing nothing, then suddenly popped in and said hey guys i gotta log. See ya. Man i'd like to have kicked him in the head. Waited all that time to go back to town and find a replacement. To me this would be a good 'reality check' for those ready ..... or not.

Every team I go out and die with is the ones that we go into the mission and they start running through to suddenly notice at least 30 seconds later one of our teammates isn't with us. They then call them a lagger, talk about how they can catch up etc. and then we die. See my goal isn't to rush into the mission, nor to give someone in my team a wake up call for readiness or not. I am in the mission to finish it with the team I am with. I won't go a portal or click the enter mission button without knowing they are ready. So I don't need a 'reality check' for them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkmane

Well, here I will just have to disagree, as for a few seconds of typing in a code to keeping the loot botters out of the game, I think it is an excellent idea.

As I said "we all love our own ideas." This appears to be the heart of what's in play right now. You posted a thread for input. Many have told you the code is a burden and you are dismissing their statements for your belief that you repeat over and over. I would like to see your idea fly too in a way that doesn't sacrifice the game flow and playability by a real burden on the player.

In my example, that last sentence at each part was put there for a reason: Arena.net is selling this game and wants to continue to sell them for a long time. That takes market momentum. Do you believe or disbelieve that this momentum, that has lead to forums like we are on now, will slow down over time if people start chanting "Why did Arena.net put in this stupid code?"

The whole foundation of this game is that it takes the hassle out and puts the fun back in the game. Entering codes isn't fun. Having to enter a code as you move through the game disrupts the mental, the emotional tie to what you are looking forward to doing. This causes a breakup in the consistency of your experience "playing" the game--the games foundation and growth rests on that consistency. Solid and good memories of playing time without any break in flow is the only message we should ever get from the mission/exploration/battle interface.

Also your singlehandedly using a bot successfully or not next BWE proves nothing. That is why I posted that we should post to the "ways to make GuildWars better" thread requesting they do more bot testing and suggesting to use the alpha and beta testers this next BWE by issuing them a new key, so as not to mess up their real accounts and characters doing every bot possible thing they can all weekend.

jdwoody · Apr 05, 2005, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

[If your warrior/monk/whatever is afk for an extended time and you move on without him or don't move on without him/how long do you wait? My team once waited 10 minutes for a guy that just stood there doing nothing, then suddenly popped in and said hey guys i gotta log. See ya. Man i'd like to have kicked him in the head.

That is an awsome example. We've all seen people go AFK, I've even gone AFK myself (after a warning and only with people I know) Your team after a minute or two could decide to move on. If the guy dies, there is no real penalty, if he lives and comes back he can catch up. If you transition he will transition with you and be safe and sound in town.

Unless everyone in the party has to type in a number before anyone can get into town. In that case unlike your case everyone *IS* stuck. You could allow the team a vote to kick someone out of the party, but then that opens up another can of worms. The warrior that keeps running ahead, let's vote him off the team. The monk didn't heal me fast enough, have my friends vote him off the team. Set a time limit? How much, 1 minute, 2 minutes, 10 minutes?

How's this for a way around the numbers. I find an area that a bot can run around for about an hour, and right before it transitions the macro runs a program to call you on the phone. If you're at home you go over to the computer and type in the numbers, if you're at work you vnc into your machine, type in the numbers and let the bot go. Sure you might lose 4 hours at night while you're sleeping but that's a small price to pay!

Tur713 · Apr 05, 2005, 10:03 PM // 22:03

I'm back to repost what I said last time:
I would find the numbers thing a large annoyance to type in all the time. I think Anet could probably find the abusers easily enough if they were making any worth while money. They could try to send a few messages (possibly obscure ones like, "What does a cow say?") to check if they respond, and if they don't, within an alotted amount of time, log them out. They wouldn't really even need their accounts frozen, just a quick log out to stop the bot.

Sin · Apr 05, 2005, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Darkmane, you don't want to know what we think then. You just want us to agree with you because you like your idea. Pharalon's post indicated the same things but also that his bots had been killed in days since they focused on them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pharalon

One of the golden rules when formulation anti hack/bot methods is that it must inconvience the botter/hacker substantially more than it does legitimate users. Ideally, it shouldn't influence the users at all, but if it does, then it should have a major imact on the effectiveness of bots/hacks.

Punching in a random code is increbily annoying form the users perspective, and is only a minor slowdown for a botter once someone comes up with a function to quickly extract the required code (not insanely difficult if you've got a bit of time and knowledge). The cost/benefit doesn't cut the mustard.

Several Alphas are actively making bots where they see an opportunity or need to do so, and the devs are making changes to break those bots. I've had several bots and macros broken within days of passing the code onto the devs. It's something they take very seriously, and expect that to remain the same after release. I also trust that they'll keep botting down in ways that won't impact too much on legit players.

I'll be really annoyed if I've got to write a macro to enter a code whenever I warp to a new instance

The bold portion would only apply if it didn't impact the legitmate user, and, with what you have received from many about how it would impact them. It appears the second part of the bold first paragraph would not apply as it is a far greater burden than you are willing to accept that it is and you have been told so.

The underlined portion is supported by what you put up, and supports what i have been suggesting as a matter of fact. Bots are being, or are, dealt with and we aren't privy to that. Maybe not all bots, maybe only 90 percent, but I am sure it is greater than 50 percent from what saus and pharalon both have posted, pharalon for what his personal results of his bots have been recently.

The italicized last line is in support of what you are suggesting.

In any event hope it gets resolved and I will no longer post on the matter.

Kityn · Apr 05, 2005, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Ok how about this.Have high lvl mobs randomly spawn in zones.They give no xp.Drop no items.Immune to magic and bow attacks.Maybe make them unkillable.They do not agro unless attacked first.They would get rid of lots of bots while players can just ignore them.Since bots tend to attack nearest mob.O and guards will not assist you either.That sounds like easiest to do.

Possible could make those high lvl mobs agro but stop attacking if you do not fight back.Once they stop attacking maybe have a lil time limit to run.

IceD'Bear · Apr 05, 2005, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by czymann

They would get rid of lots of bots while players can just ignore them.Since bots tend to attack nearest mob.

And when someone makes a bot that first checks the mobs name before it attacks? Lot's of work for nothing...and frustrated legitimate players that can't kill all of the mobs.

Kityn · Apr 05, 2005, 10:45 PM // 22:45

I'm not ready to give up on this idea yet lol.Ok maybe make the high lvl mobs guardians of the land or something like that.They have the exact same name as the mobs in the area.They can't be killed but think of it this way.They are looking out for the best interest in the players.I still think they would get rid of most bots.I cant see a bot getting around that.Maybe add them to the lore of GW.Like how they protect the land from poachers or such.I still say that bots in missions and such will not be feasible.You can tell if someone is botting or not.Just kick the bot out.
I keep comming up some ideas for such.Maybe make the guardians ethreal and really wicked looking enough that you would want to take a screenie.Maybe after an amount of kills are reached ,maybe have the guardian spawn at that local.If some was running a bot most likely that bot will attack the guardian and get slaughtered.Any ways I have never heard of anything like I mentioned so I'm not sure if it would work like I said.But if it could I think the idea is flexible enough to be added on.

Darkmane · Apr 05, 2005, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sin

Darkmane, you don't want to know what we think then. You just want us to agree with you because you like your idea. Pharalon's post indicated the same things but also that his bots had been killed in days since they focused on them.

The bold portion would only apply if it didn't impact the legitmate user, and, with what you have received from many about how it would impact them. It appears the second part of the bold first paragraph would not apply as it is a far greater burden than you are willing to accept that it is and you have been told so.

The underlined portion is supported by what you put up, and supports what i have been suggesting as a matter of fact. Bots are being, or are, dealt with and we aren't privy to that. Maybe not all bots, maybe only 90 percent, but I am sure it is greater than 50 percent from what saus and pharalon both have posted, pharalon for what his personal results of his bots have been recently.

The italicized last line is in support of what you are suggesting.

In any event hope it gets resolved and I will no longer post on the matter.

Actually I do value your opinions a lot. And with every reasoning behind what's been stated, I try to clarify further what I am trying to get at. I actually value your posts over many others since they often have some explaination behind the view. Regardless. I am just going to drop the subject anyway. I may create a macro bot during the next bwe just to see how it will be handled, and if I can do it with my limited knowledge, I know it certainly can be done by others, with much more knowledge. Thanks again for your input Sin.

Guildwars~
Forget what you thought you knew about online gaming.

Darkmane · Apr 05, 2005, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by czymann

I'm not ready to give up on this idea yet lol.Ok maybe make the high lvl mobs guardians of the land or something like that.They have the exact same name as the mobs in the area.They can't be killed but think of it this way.They are looking out for the best interest in the players.I still think they would get rid of most bots.I cant see a bot getting around that.Maybe add them to the lore of GW.Like how they protect the land from poachers or such.I still say that bots in missions and such will not be feasible.You can tell if someone is botting or not.Just kick the bot out.
I keep comming up some ideas for such.Maybe make the guardians ethreal and really wicked looking enough that you would want to take a screenie.Maybe after an amount of kills are reached ,maybe have the guardian spawn at that local.If some was running a bot most likely that bot will attack the guardian and get slaughtered.Any ways I have never heard of anything like I mentioned so I'm not sure if it would work like I said.But if it could I think the idea is flexible enough to be added on.

Your idea is interesting although totally different than what I am trying to get at. IMO your 'fix' for the possible problem would cause even more headaches than my proposal of having to enter a code when going back to town. But feel free to keep up the good thought.

Guildwars~
Forget what you thought you knew about online gaming.

Sin · Apr 05, 2005, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Alright well Darkmane thanks for making the thread again

Alot of new ground this time even with the bot revelation

hahahah Cya man

Kityn · Apr 05, 2005, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkmane

Your idea is interesting although totally different than what I am trying to get at. IMO your 'fix' for the possible problem would cause even more headaches than my proposal of having to enter a code when going back to town. But feel free to keep up the good thought.

Guildwars~
Forget what you thought you knew about online gaming.

Here some more ideas i guess.

This would be flexible enough to add to other security procedures.Guardian mobs will kill bots.Death penalties will be accumlative.Soon farmed mobs will beable to take out the bots themselves.That would be alot of running to town to get rid of the penalty and thats when the other security can be implimented.I really cannot see why adding a mob that kills when attacked would be a headache?My point is really is that bots are stupid while people are not.You have to fool the bot into doing something that will kill it and make it stop botting.Trust me on this.I have killed numerous bots in my time.Most times using the environment/mobs to do it.
Another point is not to stop the use of bots,but to make them useless.

Darkmane · Apr 05, 2005, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by czymann

Here some more ideas i guess.

This would be flexible enough to add to other security procedures.Guardian mobs will kill bots.Death penalties will be accumlative.Soon farmed mobs will beable to take out the bots themselves.That would be alot of running to town to get rid of the penalty and thats when the other security can be implimented.I really cannot see why adding a mob that kills when attacked would be a headache?My point is really is that bots are stupid while people are not.You have to fool the bot into doing something that will kill it and make it stop botting.Trust me on this.I have killed numerous bots in my time.Most times using the environment/mobs to do it.

Because- Here you are creating an impossible to win situation. Which will just pissoff the legitimate players that were just trying to play the game, saw this cool looking mob, tried to kill it/ went back to get some friends cuz he couldnt everyone keeps dieing to this mystery mob. And like someone pointed out, preventing botting by mob intervention will simply cause said botter to set their bot 'only attack such mobs with this name'. Leave all others alone. Then all you need is a list of mobs in that zone.

Kityn · Apr 05, 2005, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkmane

Because- Here you are creating an impossible to win situation. Which will just pissoff the legitimate players that were just trying to play the game, saw this cool looking mob, tried to kill it/ went back to get some friends cuz he couldnt everyone keeps dieing to this mystery mob. And like someone pointed out, preventing botting by mob intervention will simply cause said botter to set their bot 'only attack such mobs with this name'. Leave all others alone. Then all you need is a list of mobs in that zone.

Guardian mobs will have the same name as the mobs in the area.Let players know about these guardian mobs.I wouldn't want them to be a secret.lol.People will use botting programs.That is unavoidable.The more security thats in place the more upset players will get.Guardian mobs I say again can become bot proof and will make bots useless.A player that just goes up to a mob and starts wacking on it kinda deserves to get croaked.But at least info on the guardians would be available so players will know what to watchout for.It does not matter how advanced a bot program is.It is still not as smart as a person.I just think the idea is worth exploring.
These guardians can look like anything thats big and wicked looking so a player can't miss what it is.Maybe claw it's way out of the ground or zaps in on a bolt of lightning or anything.

Dreamsmith · Apr 06, 2005, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Um, huh?

If the guardian mob spawns hostile, it'll kill any player that wanders by. If it doesn't spawn hostile, it'll be ignored by bots (who will recognize this fact much more quickly and easily than any real player can -- it takes a real player at least a few milliseconds to register that a mob is not hostile, it takes a bot a few nanoseconds to do the same).

If the mob simply doesn't attack unless you approach within a certain range, well, bots are actually much better at calculating range than people.

If the mob has a different appearance than a normal monster, this again is more quickly recognized by a bot than a human.

Bots are not more intelligent than people, but you haven't suggested anything that requires intelligence to recognize. Short of having the guardian mob ask people riddles and eating people who don't answer correctly, I don't see how you're going to make one that won't be a bigger threat to humans than bots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by czymann

A player that just goes up to a mob and starts wacking on it kinda deserves to get croaked.

But in order for the human not to do this, he must be able to tell the mob from a normal monster. How are you going to make this possible in a way that isn't easy for bots to detect, given that a bot is better than a human at detecting differences in name, color, graphics used to draw, size, aggro, etc.?

Manderlock · Apr 06, 2005, 04:33 AM // 04:33

bah i do agree that bots need to be taken care off but can you imagine tha flood of angry newbs that that finds the unbeatalbe group?
i dont want all that drama comen and flooden this forum, do you

Apr 05, 2005, 10:14 PM // 22:14	#30
Kityn Krytan Explorer Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Michigan Guild: Heroes of the Horn [HoH] Profession: N/	Ok how about this.Have high lvl mobs randomly spawn in zones.They give no xp.Drop no items.Immune to magic and bow attacks.Maybe make them unkillable.They do not agro unless attacked first.They would get rid of lots of bots while players can just ignore them.Since bots tend to attack nearest mob.O and guards will not assist you either.That sounds like easiest to do. Possible could make those high lvl mobs agro but stop attacking if you do not fight back.Once they stop attacking maybe have a lil time limit to run. Last edited by Kityn; Apr 05, 2005 at 10:17 PM // 22:17.. Reason: additional thoughts

Apr 05, 2005, 10:45 PM // 22:45	#32
Kityn Krytan Explorer Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Michigan Guild: Heroes of the Horn [HoH] Profession: N/	I'm not ready to give up on this idea yet lol.Ok maybe make the high lvl mobs guardians of the land or something like that.They have the exact same name as the mobs in the area.They can't be killed but think of it this way.They are looking out for the best interest in the players.I still think they would get rid of most bots.I cant see a bot getting around that.Maybe add them to the lore of GW.Like how they protect the land from poachers or such.I still say that bots in missions and such will not be feasible.You can tell if someone is botting or not.Just kick the bot out. I keep comming up some ideas for such.Maybe make the guardians ethreal and really wicked looking enough that you would want to take a screenie.Maybe after an amount of kills are reached ,maybe have the guardian spawn at that local.If some was running a bot most likely that bot will attack the guardian and get slaughtered.Any ways I have never heard of anything like I mentioned so I'm not sure if it would work like I said.But if it could I think the idea is flexible enough to be added on. Last edited by Kityn; Apr 05, 2005 at 11:09 PM // 23:09.. Reason: additional thoughts

Apr 05, 2005, 08:48 PM // 20:48	#22
Sin Banned Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The Joint :p	Okay, so I run back (per my previous example) and the party obviously is revived but we can't do anything in the town until we all enter our codes? Ug!!!! Why did Arena.net put in this stupid code? So here I am with a good team, with all the elements and skills we need to finish the quest. Yet something happened, what I do not know, and won't know, at least not now. See my keyboard won't let me type to my team until I type in a code, and it's on a timer. If I do nothing it will kick me and I lose the team. We got here from the wall quest so I really don't want that to happen. Why did Arena.net put in this stupid code? Or maybe my keyboard lets me talk to my team but one of the members isn't responding, now everyone is waiting in limbo because we don't wanna type in our code and lose our monk who isn't responding. He gets back, tells us "Sorry i had a phone call." We all tell him no problem...but wait...someone didn't say "np"....Hey dude, Warrior, you there? Hey we are about to type in our codes now so we can keep our team...Dude?....I guess we'll need another warrior. We proceed to type in our codes and half the team leaves. OMG I have to find another team? Why did Arena.net put in this stupid code? The code is a bad idea for how the game flows. I know you like it, we all like our own ideas. The code interrupts game flow and there are other absolutely undetectable and zero burden methods that do not interfere with game flow and would be far better for the legitimate player than typing a code would ever be.

Apr 05, 2005, 08:55 PM // 20:55	#23
IceD'Bear Krytan Explorer Join Date: Feb 2005 Guild: Awoken Myth [MYTH] Profession: Mo/	I don't like this idea. The title of your topic should be "Beating Hack0rs AND All Other Innocent players With a Stick".

Apr 05, 2005, 10:03 PM // 22:03	#28
Tur713 Krytan Explorer Join Date: Feb 2005 Guild: Pink Animal Clan Profession: E/Me	I'm back to repost what I said last time: I would find the numbers thing a large annoyance to type in all the time. I think Anet could probably find the abusers easily enough if they were making any worth while money. They could try to send a few messages (possibly obscure ones like, "What does a cow say?") to check if they respond, and if they don't, within an alotted amount of time, log them out. They wouldn't really even need their accounts frozen, just a quick log out to stop the bot.

Apr 05, 2005, 11:16 PM // 23:16	#35
Sin Banned Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The Joint :p	Alright well Darkmane thanks for making the thread again Alot of new ground this time even with the bot revelation hahahah Cya man

Apr 06, 2005, 04:33 AM // 04:33	#40
Manderlock Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: TX Guild: Crimson ScS Profession: W/N	bah i do agree that bots need to be taken care off but can you imagine tha flood of angry newbs that that finds the unbeatalbe group? i dont want all that drama comen and flooden this forum, do you