Curse

KaPe · Sep 14, 2005, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Unless you're perfect monk, having second one is definately helpful. If multiple people are getting hit and you're getting surrounded by enemies as well - who's going to save *your* sorry self? Another monk who you "forgot" to take with you. Let's not forget that biggest healing spells don't work on self - no heal other, no word of healing, no seed.

Captain Marvel · Sep 14, 2005, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Monks? Group?

Didn't you hear?

All the monks are farming UW.

wiz12268 · Sep 14, 2005, 04:22 PM // 16:22

I commented earlier, but saw some things thaty I didn't agree with.

Primary monks are not the best healers. Ele/mos are the best, simply because they have a lot more energy. And with the ER build they are vastly superior. If you have a protect monk and an ele/mo who is primary healer/enchanter there arent many maps you can't clear without any deaths, or even getting below half health.

The problem is that most people do not know how to play a monk. Most monks now are guys who can't get invites with their other characters, and take their 105 build monk into an area just to group up. Most don't even have the right skills, they only have the ones they needed to try and solo the UW. So a combination of not having the right skills, along with not knowing how to use the ones you have is a deadly one.

Another thing about self heals. I play my monk 80% of the time. I know my role. But I now pro smite and don't really heal. A HEALER is suposed to heal. Even as a monk I don't carry a self heal. Simply because it isn't my job to heal myself, it is the healers. I protect and heal through secondary means SUPPORTING the healer monk. Obviously there is an overlap if we both see someone low I hit with Reversal and he hits with a heal, but that is what you get. Generally speaking with a good pro monk, and a good healer groups should have no trouble PvE, even against drainers and spell casters.

Having a self heal is basiclly a waste of a slot IMO, and I PLAY A MONK. If they put a spell in there that shortens the battle, then they won't need a self heal anyways, as the shorter the battle the less energy becomes a concern. But with an Ele/mo energy should never be a concern. I have played straight healer with mine, and I had 80+ energy and 3 pips of regen I could spam heal party for the most part and in support of a pro monk we ran the whole FOW.

I grouped up yesterday trying to help some people in Addamon's Mouth, and I said I was pro/smite, and the kicked me LOL, AFTER I was asked to help them out. They had l a group of 4 warriors, a nec and a ranger, so obviously not a group I wanted to be in anyways. But if you don't heal people don't want you. I popped back in about an hour later and they were still there or back after several failures still looking to complete the mission.

What I do agree with is that people that are new or have no skills are relying on healers way too much. But experienced players that know what to expect and how to play the game make a healers job a lot easier. I know when I am in a good group because I am casting a lot more smiting spells than I am protect spells. I also know that in that group I can utilize the Balth aura I brought and join in the melee rather than have it just take up space in my bar. But if I can get in late and not get aggroed it surely makes the battle much shorter. I just make it know to the healer I will need heals if/when I do it.

Sluggs · Sep 14, 2005, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicha

Hi everyone,
Whenever i form a group, it is my new objective: going out there without any monk. And you know what? It is a lot of fun.

In this game the result of any battle is determined by a simple equation

Success = your damage - opponent healing > opponent damage - your healing

There are lots of ways of affecting all four terms in this equation and increasing your healing is one of them. Monk healing skills are way more powerful than other classes damage (and healing) skills. but you have to have taken damage to make use of them. That is why crap groups who can't control the opponent damage term rely on multiple healing monks to keep the equation balanced in their favour. They still succeed just slowly with less certainty. The dumb players are smart enough to remember they keep dying when they don't have 3 monks in the party but not smart enough to understand why.

KaPe · Sep 14, 2005, 05:01 PM // 17:01

"Primary monks are not the best healers. Ele/mos are the best, simply because they have a lot more energy"

Divine Favor + Runes bonus >>> Energy. It's simple. Ele/mos are better at protection/smiting, but they're not better at healing. If energy is *such* a big problem, there are skills that take care of that - or just bring Necro with +3 regen.
Edit: Not to mention that Divine Favor triggers even when you're just removing hexes/condition, basically giving you a free orison every cast.

Pandora's box · Sep 14, 2005, 05:11 PM // 17:11

I'm a monk and I gave up my healing build long ago. Monks can do so much more! And parties dependent on healing monks are often no good. IF I join a party its to support the tank. One tank. The combo I'm using than is:
-Divine boon
-Zealots fire
-Guardian.
This makes the tank a killing machine

. I keep spawning Guardian rapidly, giving the tank 40% chance to block and healing him at the same time. Zealots kills the surrounding enemies. The other players should perfectly be able to take care of themselves (like the original poster mentioned in some examples). And I add some smiting now and than to speed fights up.

Unfortunately the respond I get most when I explain what I intend to do is: 'huh? no healing?? sry, pls leave' [kick]. So, its back to the party of henchmen. Don't blame monks for wanting to use their skills more efficiently.

ChoKILLate[FDG] · Sep 14, 2005, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Primary monks are not the best healers. Ele/mos are the best, simply because they have a lot more energy. And with the ER build they are vastly superior.

NOT TRUE....As a monk you get the bonus from Divine favor which is only available to a primary monk. It heals anytime you cast a spell on an ally. Mine is set to heal an additional 30 per spell I cast. So monks make the best healers plain and simple. However, Ele/Mo make the best smiters!...and this is the build I use when entering FoW with my Ele since all the undead there take double damage.

Xue Yi Liang · Sep 14, 2005, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by D.E.V.i.A.N.C.E

What do all out prot monks use? 3 or 4 spells max? the 16/15 really doesnt beat a good hybrid.
16 Divine Favor / 15 Prot.

Uh oh. We gonna have some class-friction between monks now? Don't be so quick to dismiss "pure protectors." As with many monks I have pure heal builds, pure prot builds and mixed ones.
Here's one prot PvE recipie (with some variations):

Blessed Aura - +30%-33% enchant duration. Add that to the +20% from the Yakslapper I carry
Aegis - 11 sec (probably closer to 17 sec with BA and weapon mod)
Shield of Regeneration (also enhanced in duration)
Reversal of Fortune
Draw Conditions
Remove Hex
Rebirth
Energy Tap

It's not all about the build but also how you use it. But, timed well, this is a very effective package.
If conditions are flying everywhere then Draw Conditions is very fast which paradoxically keeps my health up. But if I'm approaching 50% of my health (and/or taking hits) I can hit myself with SoR and I'm sitting pretty. While you lack the means of dumping conditions from yourself it's not a big deal as long as you keep your health up, and SoR is strong enough to counteract a bunch of conditions and hexes.
If a tank is getting clobbered I hit him with SoR - and if SoR is recharging then Reversal buys me time. If 2 tanks are starting to take damage then one gets SoR and the other gets Reversal.
At a high Prot level - Reversal can be a nice spike healing "band-aid" when you're low on energy.
On top of this Aegis covers everyone for the majority of the time. When energy is low you might find yourself deciding between throwing out a SoR vs. Aegis (and/or pulling off Blessed Aura for the extra pip.)
Timing Energy Tap is part of the challenge. But if you're smart about budgeting your energy it's not really much of an issue.

That's one example of an effective protector IMO. It doesn't replace the role of a healer or healer/protector but it's pretty good at covering the bases and has some special benefits.

wiz12268 · Sep 14, 2005, 07:16 PM // 19:16

If I have 3 times the energy then the divine favor bonus isn't going to matter. That slight bonus I gain will be more than made up for with the extra casting time. You might get more health in a single spell, but a good healer shouldn't let someone get low enough for those few extra points to make a difference. So instead of one heal other and a divine bonus, I have 3-4 heal others, at less per heal, but more overall hit points given. And after 4 heal others I am not tapped out, I still have 40+ energy left.

I can't quote numbers or amounts, but I am sure if you do them out they will show that more casts will outwiegh a single and a bonus. The only question is recharge time, and with Orison it is definately quick enough to spam. But most guys don't run a high enough divine favor attribute to make it even close IMO.

To me divine favor is a good self heal for a monk, that little bit of a bonus you get when you cast can help if you are bleeding and not taking direct damage. So in that case it helps. But for the most part ele primaires are not targets, so they really don't need the self heals, either in PvE or PvP.

I have played both builds I know how it works. For the most part battles shouldn't go on long enough to drain energy, but sometimes mistakes are made or someone dies, then that little bit if extra energy makes a huge diference.

Chase the Sky · Sep 14, 2005, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiz12268

I can't quote numbers or amounts, but I am sure if you do them out they will show that more casts will outwiegh a single and a bonus. The only question is recharge time, and with Orison it is definately quick enough to spam. But most guys don't run a high enough divine favor attribute to make it even close IMO.

To me divine favor is a good self heal for a monk, that little bit of a bonus you get when you cast can help if you are bleeding and not taking direct damage. So in that case it helps. But for the most part ele primaires are not targets, so they really don't need the self heals, either in PvE or PvP.

I have played both builds I know how it works. For the most part battles shouldn't go on long enough to drain energy, but sometimes mistakes are made or someone dies, then that little bit if extra energy makes a huge diference.

What happens if you need to get a lot of healing out in a limited amount of time? Like in PvP fights when one person is targeted and it isn't about keeping them up for a long (PvE) period of time but keeping them up for the next few seconds? Your El/Mo build seems pretty short sighted if you are trying to be a healer in PvP. But hey, maybe you like guildwars because of it's AWESOME PvE content?

About this thread:
The fact of the matter is that Monks are needed to form specialized groups where damage dealers can do the quickest amount of damage, tanks can do the most tanking, and healers can just concentrate on healing. Most of you are all butt hurt because you can't find good monks (or the good ones you do find want some compensation for their effort).

Since the demand for healers is more then the supply of healers most monks (like me) take advantage of the situation and ask for compensation in return for the healing role. People pay for good healing because they would rather play the game then sit around for 30 minutes waiting for a free monk. This is to be expected and encouraged so that the supply increases to meet the demand. To put it in layman's terms: Healing monks are rare so they can charge for doing their role. Eventually the compensation for that class role will reach a point where more people want to play the Monk to get the compensation, then there will be ample supply of monkage and the demand will be met without paying for the monk services.

Untill that day comes I am for hire. Add me to your friends list.

wiz12268 · Sep 14, 2005, 10:57 PM // 22:57

We are, and I am, only talking about PvE. I don't play a lot of PvP simply because it doesn't excite me all that much. I can die pretty fast against the AI of a computer in a PUG team, so I don't see how going into PvP with the same type of team is going to be any different. At least if I go play PvE I might actually get something out of it. Like a nice drop. I have unlocked almost every skill in the game, so faction doesn't entice me too much. Nor does hanging around in the arenas looking to get invited in a group, or worse actually thinking about trying PvP and spamming for 20-30 minutes and not getting an invite.

back to topic...

MaglorD · Sep 15, 2005, 04:01 AM // 04:01

True monks provide higher healing per second than any E/Mo because of divine favor. The most crucial fights require high healing per second which only true monks can provide not monk wannabes like E/Mo.

Ooma · Sep 15, 2005, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chase the Sky

Untill that day comes I am for hire. Add me to your friends list.

"You're kidding, right?" is quickly becoming my favourite phrase on this board.

Do you give refunds if you let someone die?

ChoKILLate[FDG] · Sep 15, 2005, 03:06 PM // 15:06

The only benefit you have as an Ele/monk is that the enemy does not target you right away. A monk primary is usually the first to get targeted if he is in agro range.

Toral Xi · Sep 15, 2005, 06:05 PM // 18:05

"Your average, good healing monk doesn't get a chance to enjoy the visual spectacle of GW combat because they are always looking at either their skill bars or the party health bars." (by ChoKILLate)

This is such a true statement. I have two other characters I have almost finished the game with (Me/Ele and W/Ele) and I feel I had much more involvement in the game than I do with my Mo/Necro. I run a healing/prot combo and I find myself looking at the health bars the entire mission and not being able to enjoy the other visual aspects of the game. I am trying to play each class to get a greater feel/appreciation for each class and I got to tell you my hat is off to other monks that have to do the same.

Apathetic · Sep 15, 2005, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Of course there is a Monk craze, monks are needed. If you think that you can kill a group without one of your dying, go ahead. Do Well of Power (you need a corpse first) and sometimes, a 6 bars of regeneration wont hold up vs. a mob. (Go FoW without a monk and you will see what I mean. A Healing Breeze with 6 Bars wont save you.

Monks are essential to any group, seeds / heal parties, they are built for healing so you, the necro or ranger does not need to pack troll ungent or any self heals.

Another thing I would like to point out, is you really seem to have something against this profession. Monks arent the only people who say "I'm a monk , I dont pay!" Ive seen tanks say, can I not pay pls, im short on money. Im the tank, dont make me pay. (From that point on you should know the person is sassy, just dont deal with him. Your attacking simply monks, and I dont htink its fair that you say there worthless when the few majority does stuff like that.

So, thanks for listening, and hopefully you look at monks differently and not so blindly. Keep in mind Monks are a hard profession to play. When a team is standing in a fie storm and taking mass dmg all at once its hard to heal everyone single handedly, and then if someone dies and says "no heals" then its really fustrating to play the class.

ChoKILLate[FDG] · Sep 15, 2005, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Toral Xi,

I never said that....but you definately see less scenery during fights with a monk than with a warrior or ele!

kawaii_bat · Sep 15, 2005, 08:28 PM // 20:28

I generally play the classes I want to play. But I feel a bit out of it since everyone is a W/Mo, E/Mo and Mo/W. I hardly see necromancers and mesmers anymore.

I personnaly think it's depressing seeing how unoriginal people have gotten for in-game money. You should experiment and sees what goes and what does not. People tested stuff to get a Mo/W that could do UW solo, but since he/she divulged the secret then everyone's been using it that's why it's been nerfed.

I think Anet did a good thing nerfing the abilities a bit, it keeps players from *just* taking it as a class instead of trying out other character.

I have an Incredible E/N that can farm griffins and UW solo without taking much damage, but no one really cares. They all have W/Mo and Mo/W!

You'd never think that a non-warrior or non-monk class could succeed hmm?

-----------------------

For reasons that are obvious: I'm not posting the build here. People who'd like to know more about it have to pm her when she's online (Oracle of Delphie) I'll help you out, give you hints, but I won't give the whole of it. You have to try it by yourself

Charcoal Ann · Sep 15, 2005, 10:16 PM // 22:16

i am hurt by the suggestion that all monks are soloing UW. Big Jim has never been to UW in his life. as a lifelong and dedecated healer Jim does not deserve this.
i am always sceptical of a Mo/W when group in SF. quite often they are UW soloers who have little to no idea how to keep their charges alive. the worst still have 55 hp.

i have a W/Mo because i fancied a change from being squishy (after having a N/(changeable) and an E/(changeable). a W/Mo gave me the least squishyness.

Mo/W are NOT good healers. they are good smiters. i can tap off 10 energy from a foe if i am low. they can't.

i have had a second necro and a Mesmer but simply couldn't get into them. the difficulty finding groups dragged them down.

i have to admit that as Jim i have had to pay only rarely but will always offer to pay. it is only good manners.
those annoying people who stand in a meteor shower and then say WTF!!! n0 healz?!?11! tend to be few and far between (about one in 16 i'd say)

i imagine your build involves AotL in some role.

Precur · Sep 16, 2005, 01:28 AM // 01:28

E/MO make good enchanters but to say that they make better healers is far fetched ...
As a primary healer (Mo/E) I have three times the healing power vs a E/Mo. Lets take Orison of Healing as an example an E/Mo with 12 in Healing will heal for 60 Hps. Now compare this against a devine-boon healer with 16 in Devine Favor and 13 in Healing .. (Boon) 73 Hps + (Devine Favor) 48 Hps + (OoH) 63 Hps = 184 Hps

So for the same 5 points of energy I heal for 184 Hps vs the E/Mo 60 Hps thus the Elementalist will take three times the amount of time and energy to achieve the same result. I will use 2/3 less energy than an Elementalist/Monk even though he has twice the energy storage he will be much slower to heal and use up alot more energy than a true healer .... so sorry but he will never out heal a prue healing monk.

Lets look at Healing Touch:
E/Mo = 51 Hps
Mo/E = 54 Hps (Healing touch) + 73 Hps (Boon) + 96 Hps (devine Faor) = 203 Hps

heh .. E/Mo are not healers ... enuff said .....