Curse

Gerbill · Sep 09, 2005, 10:13 AM // 10:13

The simple warrior + monk + ele teams are all because they think it's enough to have

- a tank.
- a healer for the tank.
- a high damage dealing character.

however in some places... Mesmers, Rangers and Necros for that matter can help in killing a lot quicker.. deal a lot better with enchantment removal etc..

The first mission with the high priest in SF.. when it's best to leave one or a few party members at the priest while you get the crystals... a trapper ranger would have been lovely at that time..

People just need to realise there are other classes than then main 3 mostly used (and occassionaly wanted) ones.. if I get invited in a party with my mesmer (quite rare) or any of my characters for that matter, and they don't invite someone else for their class.. I just leave.. even if it's taken me 30 mins to get into a party.. frankly because I dislike the discrimination to other classes and people have to realise they are usefull.

Zimba · Sep 09, 2005, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Well yesterday in thunderkeep mission i have seen a me/wa luring and you probably guessed it tanking. He died several times. Since i was the monk he blamed me for not keeping him alive. After that remark i didnt resurect him since my mana is better spend elsewhere.

Gerbill · Sep 09, 2005, 10:18 AM // 10:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zimba

Well yesterday in thunderkeep mission i have seen a me/wa luring and you probably guessed it tanking. He died several times. Since i was the monk he blamed me for not keeping him alive. After that remark i didnt resurect him since my mana is better spend elsewhere.

That's another reason why Mesmers are disliked, it's not an easy class to play.. and certainly not meant for tanking.. with people like that the reputation of Mesmers will only get worse

lg5000 · Sep 09, 2005, 10:21 AM // 10:21

About tanking... what's the stats for warriors armor again? AL80?

Mesmer have standard AL60 armor.. and a strange skill which gives them an additional... 40% (give or take a bit, depending on what you got inspiration set at) amor against a certain element or physical damage... which of course, makes me wanna change my warriors second prof. over to mesmer so I can tank better

Tijger · Sep 09, 2005, 10:23 AM // 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zimba

Well yesterday in thunderkeep mission i have seen a me/wa luring and you probably guessed it tanking. He died several times. Since i was the monk he blamed me for not keeping him alive. After that remark i didnt resurect him since my mana is better spend elsewhere.

I would have ressed him but in general I fully agree with you, had a monk with us in SF yesterday who tried to tank as well, great if you are a smiter, not so smart if you are a healer who also manages to use rebirth in the middle of combat thereby wiping out his energy and skills for a serious amount of time.

Ofc, when you call them on such actions they get all stroppy and call you a n00b etc. I left the party at that point, I can find better parties and better uses for my time.

Tijger · Sep 09, 2005, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by lg5000

About tanking... what's the stats for warriors armor again? AL80?

Mesmer have standard AL60 armor.. and a strange skill which gives them an additional... 40% (give or take a bit, depending on what you got inspiration set at) amor against a certain element or physical damage... which of course, makes me wanna change my warriors second prof. over to mesmer so I can tank better

Ah but that strange skill is a dual edged sword, it increases your vulnerability for other types of damage. I for one very rarely used it when I played Mesmer, if you come up against mixed groups with ele's in them you can die real fast. Armor of Earth would be a better choice if I may say so if you want extra armor.

Numa Pompilius · Sep 09, 2005, 11:03 AM // 11:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobsura

How can you judge if a Mesmer is any good i am not doing spike damage, i am not focus firing, i am hanging back cause of armor level, most of the time i am being chased around and not being healed because i am just a mesmer, and if i die i don't get rezzed until the fight is over.

Truth. Mesmers have zero tanking ability, get zero help from teammates, and do not get rezzed when they die.

I tried taking my anti-caster mesmer to random arena, and it was an excercise in futility - yes, I could disable or kill any caster on the opposing team in a seconds, but I was pretty helpless against the armies of W/Mos. As I had no tanking ability, poor self heal, and got no healing/backup, I was always first to die, and never got rezzed. Not once. Even though I broadcasted I had unspent rez so rezzing me was a 2-for-1 deal.

So now I take my farmer W/Mo when I go to random. But even though he's a less common build than your run of the mill axe or hammer-wamo, he's still not as fun to play as the mesmer. I may make another attempt when I've respecced my mesmer to cripple and do direct damage, but I can't really see any way of improving her tankability - and respeccing will make her vulnerable to casters.

Against mobs the fragility of mesmers isn't as big a problem - I can't solo with my mesmer, as melee mobs are a problem, but she's got effectively free range of the south shiverpeaks as long as she brings Lina and Stefan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tijger

Ah but that strange skill is a dual edged sword, it increases your vulnerability for other types of damage.

This is true. You can get AL 100 against fire, at the cost of getting AL30 against physical, electricity, cold etc OR you can get AL 100 against physical, at the cost of AL 30 against fire, electricity etcetcetc - you get the point.
Basically these are only useful in PvE when you're up against mobs of a single kind (e.g. physical resistence is good against minotaurs as they only do physical damage, mantra of flame against hydras, as they do fire damage).
Armor of Earth is vastly superior to this. Mesmers can't tank using mesmer skills.

Incidentally warrior armor is 80-85 plus a bonus of 10-15% against specific damage (e.g. my W/Mo's gladiator is 80 (+15 against physical)... plus 16 from the shield, plus 5 from the sword, plus a rune of superior absorption).

coolsti · Sep 09, 2005, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zimba

Well yesterday in thunderkeep mission i have seen a me/wa luring and you probably guessed it tanking. He died several times. Since i was the monk he blamed me for not keeping him alive. After that remark i didnt resurect him since my mana is better spend elsewhere.

There are stupid players of all professions. I do the same: if a person in my party plays really stupidly and I am the healer, then I just refuse to heal or resurrect them anymore. A lot of players just don't care to play tactically or play the way that their char's profession should be played.

I have 4 characters that I am playing simultaneously, and enjoying all of them immensely. By far my Mesmer is the most interesting to play. I have no problems getting into groups because if I can't form my own group with humans, then I play with henchies.

You'll have the most fun playing in groups that appreciate the benefits of a Mesmer, not in the groups that have taken you on because you begged them to. So just advertise for your own party, hey I do this a lot now.

(With the huge demand for, but lack of, monks for the thunderkeep mission, I decided to try to lighten the atmosphere up a bit a few days back, by shouting out "Forming a group for mission, 7 Monks needed!" For some reason, no one thought that was funny .... )

To Numa Pompilius: just a thought, but have you tried taking things like ineptitude (an elite which blinds an attacker) and clumsiness against warriors? Ineptitude plus the skill that spreads conditions to neighboring foes might be a powerful combination.

Man With No Name · Sep 09, 2005, 11:12 AM // 11:12

There's a few problems with Mesmers in PvE from my point of view... ( and it's by level design, not a fault with the class )

Lets take the SF High Priest quest for an example,

You enter the Furnace -- take a right and head down to that grassy area to kill the Mesmer boss. Now including the boss there must be at least 10 mesmers in that small area -- all using Cry Of Frustration among other things

Just as there are common expectations placed on every class ( since people don't truely understand what each class does ) -- as a mesmer you'd be EXPECTED to be able to shutdown all of that group -- it's a tall order and likely impossible.

Since that can't be done -- the 2nd best option is simply to blast them to bits

If you do want to see more Mesmers in PvE ( and I do ) -- they'll have to change the monster spawns to make it so that a group would be forced to bring a mesmer, for example each ENEMY group could consist of a variation of this one:

- 2 Monks ( Healing + Protection )
- 2 Mesmers ( Powerblock..?? Diversion, Energy Drain )
- 1 Ranger ( Snares + Throw Dirt + Apply Poison + Concussion Shot..?? )
- 1 Elementalist ( Glimmering Mark + Enervating Charge )
- 1 Warrior ( Axe -- Deep Wound with interupts )

They'd have to be smart enough to think like PvP opponents ( by buffing themselves up and debuffing you ) and the enemy group would have to focus fire your monks.

The average group would be destroyed by the above enemy group and that's the kind of challenge they should be adding -- resurrecting priests and enemies that use rez signets, are a start -- but it's not enough

The fact that I can do 3/4 Sorrows Furnace missions with henchies, by running in and chopping away -- shows up how easy it is...

Thunderhead Keep's Monk boss was an example of a mission where a mesmer can be crucial ( sadly that's the only example I can think of :S ) -- if you couldn't kill him quick, the mission would likely fail -- they should add more monsters like that

A mesmer might be able to make a mission easier but until then we'll always have to the problem where strategy is allowed to go outta' the window and killing them faster than they can kill you is the best option.

For further reading try this, specifically point #1:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=42144

Ashley Twig · Sep 09, 2005, 11:32 AM // 11:32

In the end it's, like somebody posted already, a matter of balance.
That's why a lot of people get along with henchmen so well.
You can almost not fail to get a char of each profession.
That's balance.

Lemmy · Sep 09, 2005, 11:44 AM // 11:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Truth. Mesmers have zero tanking ability

Do you know stance called distortion?

Btw. for some people that claim that mesmer is needed in every group, that's completely untruth. Often one water ele is enough (maelstrom) and it is better to pick up necro than Me. It all depends on the team build.
Also most mesmers want to be "all in one", if you want to lock caster, what is this "empathy" doing on his skill belt? Just focus on what you are meant to do and do it well. Also most mesmer don't have feeling of balance with skills and energy gain. I've seen a lot that put backfire, surge, burn, etc (put here any spells that people think are best because they do damage) and then not having energy just hanging around. People, backfire is 15 energy, lasts 10 secs, casting time (v. important) 3, unless you have ie energy drain (or other regaining energy spell) it is just 1-2 use time and it doesn't much against caster (he will just run away for 10 secs, or monk will remove/smite his hex), yes this spell is good against mobs and people that never heard about it :P

Look at less obvious skills to use: ie: Wastrells Worry, it does what it does, it is excellent hex breaker removal (good ping for monks so they start to afraid), makes a trigger on enemy monks to remove hexes which takes a time and WW will wear off before they do they wasting their time and energy, also frequent WW will (unless he just don't care about that) disrupt harmony in the enemy team) and if we get lucky it deals quite decent damage for just 5 energy
Mind Wrack: if you know this spell it makes a big psychologicall effect that you should not cast spell that takes your all energy, become distracted (mesmer probably will burn or steal their energy anyway) it is completely spamable, you can steal energy using energy drain from one caster and start putting on them all, if you want to trigger damage just use "free" signet of weariness, also for damage dealing it's good: MW, energy drain, MW, energy burn, MW, energy tap... etc. Use your brain and imagination.

Today mesmers lack of these kind of thinking, it is hardly to determine which mesmer is experienced, another point is that people (ie: W/Mo) that say that mesmer is not needed in team usually don't know any of Me skills... maybe besides backfire

funbun · Sep 09, 2005, 12:01 PM // 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobsura

This is not a bash on the update, in fact i think the update is great but you can only do so much with Henchmen. I spent 2 hours in the war camp and saw many qoutes of "need people to go to sorrows furnace invite self" or "looking for people to farm invite self" so seeing that it is invite self i do and guess what, Declined or no answer. I have played over 400 hours with my mesmer, and over 50 of those hours were spent trying to get in an Underworld or FOW group, and have only been once in FOW once. I know the box says that you can't make a mistake early in the game that affects you later, that's true unless you make a Mesmer.

This is why you need to start your own groups. Look at the number of ppl posting LFG, LFG Last Day, LFG Denfend, LFG Furnace. There are way more ppl wantring to join a group than who want to start groups of their own. Take the lead man and you won't have a problem.

Also, ask for Rangers, Necromamcers, Mesmers and other unwanted builds to join your group. These ppl never get asked to join If you ask them they will respond en masse because you make them feel needed when you ask them. Feeling neded is a basic human need. Adress that need and you will never haveproblems building a group.

Numa Pompilius · Sep 09, 2005, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lemmy

Do you know stance called distortion?

Yes, for five seconds I have a 75% chance to evade. Every evasion costs me 3 energy or distortion ends, and attacks which ignore evasion gets through. Not really tankability.

Quote:

Btw. for some people that claim that mesmer is needed in every group, that's completely untruth.

Agreed. In PvE no class is really _needed_, although it's usually a good idea to always have at least a W/Mo and an ele in the team. Like someone else said, it's good to have a good spread of classes in the team, because it improves the probability you're bringing a counter to whatever problems you're facing.

Quote:

Also most mesmers want to be "all in one", if you want to lock caster, what is this "empathy" doing on his skill belt?

If one can count on the team to help, the skill belt looks different.
E.g. if I know there'll be a healer monk on the team who'll actually heal me, I can leave sucky Ether Feast at home, or if I know there'll be a prot monk to shield me, I don't need the sucky stances. I can then concentrate on offensive spells.

But in random arena and in PUG's I can't count on any meaningful help from my team. Actually I can count on not getting any.

Quote:

hanging around. People, backfire is 15 energy, lasts 10 secs, casting time (v. important) 3, unless you have ie energy drain (or other regaining energy spell) it is just 1-2 use time and it doesn't much against caster (he will just run away for 10 secs, or monk will remove/smite his hex), yes this spell is good against mobs and people that never heard about it :P

Most mesmers will bring energy replenishment spells. Energy isn't really a big problem for mesmers - in fact stealing energy from the enemy is one of the ways mesmers shut them down. As for backfire it's a killer in PvE (140 points damage per cast means that fast-casting mobs like stormriders tear themselves apart in seconds) but in PvP it's a shutdown spell. The whole point of using it there is that the target doesn't cast while it wears off (and you need to cover it with a chaff hex). Because it's got a 20 second cooldown it's often used with arcane echo.

Quote:

Look at less obvious skills to use: ie: Wastrells Worry

Yes, it's a nice spell: completely spammable and does 60 damage after three seconds. However, if they cast a spell or use a skill during those three seconds, it simply ends without doing damage, meaning that more often than not it does nothing at all. It doesn't work as a chaff hex either - it ends at the _beginning_ of the remove hex cast.

Quote:

Mind Wrack

IMO a pretty useless spell. For 20 seconds, if targets energy = 0, then it does 90 damage and ends. It's not always that easy to get the enemy down to zero, and when you do, 90 damage isn't a lot. You can do more damage quicker or for less energy through direct damage spells like Energy Burn or even Conjure Phantasm.

Mind wrack and spirit shackles are mainly good as chaff hexes, protecting more damaging hexes from being removed, IMO.

That said, I used Mind Wrack + Spirit Shackles to beat my mirror during ascension. But a human would never have fallen for a cheap trick like that.

coolsti · Sep 09, 2005, 12:59 PM // 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by funbun

This is why you need to start your own groups. Look at the number of ppl posting LFG, LFG Last Day, LFG Denfend, LFG Furnace. There are way more ppl wantring to join a group than who want to start groups of their own. Take the lead man and you won't have a problem.

Reminds me of my first (and until now only) experience in UW/FOW. As a newby for these areas, I found the stress and intensity of the players forming groups a bit too much to deal with. All I heard around me was "Experienced only" and "Monks only" etc. etc. But I still wanted to go to FOW to see what this was all about. Since I couldn't go with henchies (hey, I tried) I was forced to go with a human group.

So in desperation I advertised for my own group with something like

"Forming newby group for FOW, inexperienced players welcome, only fun players please".

I shouted this out only once, and immediately afterwards had enough clicks to fill out the group

I think with a suitable advertisement, any Mesmer or Ranger can quickly form their own group, and probably be the better off for it.

asd123 · Sep 09, 2005, 02:59 PM // 14:59

i love counterstrike

Kuku Monk · Sep 09, 2005, 03:12 PM // 15:12

I've got it the worst with this character I think. I've had the name Kuku Monk for over 10 yrs. Not thinking much about it I made the character into a Me/E not knowing how it would make everyone think I am a Monk character. So not only is it difficult to find a group when I say M/E20 etc etc... but when I try to invite myself, or people try adding me b/c of my name, I get the typical "WHAT! You're not a monk!>?!?!?!>!>!?" and then I'm dropped.

Needless to say I typically only play this character with henchmen. I don't have the time or patience to try and get into a group. I actually made a monk character and I've yet to have a problem getting into a group...go figure.

jdwoody · Sep 09, 2005, 03:34 PM // 15:34

I've had trouble getting into groups with my ranger, I've had the best luck putting out a message like this:

"Starting new group, any profession welcome"

Get a bunch of rangers/mesmers/necros together, grab 2 henchmen monks (since no human monks would be crazy enough to join this group) and possibly a single tank in there somewhere and just have fun.

I think fun is the key word, avoid anyone that says "no n00bs" or "any class but ranger". A group that laughs together always completes the mission.

funbun · Sep 09, 2005, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdwoody

"Starting new group, any profession welcome"

Get a bunch of rangers/mesmers/necros together, grab 2 henchmen monks (since no human monks would be crazy enough to join this group) and possibly a single tank in there somewhere and just have fun.

That's exactly what I said. The approach you describe is exactly what I do. It works. And I've had more success in completing misisons with these "odd ball" group rather than your standard tank, ele, monk group.

sidepocket13 · Sep 09, 2005, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Borislav Vladislav

if your a good mesmers it wont be a problem for u to find a group but if ur nto a good one well then good luck

if you are in a pug, how can the pug leader tell if you are a good mesmer when all he says is "LFG invite self"?

perfect · Sep 09, 2005, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Ok well my party and I were extremely sad we didnt have a mesmer by the time we got to the end of Sorrow Furnace.

*SPOILER*
Here is a picture spoiling the end boss, so look at your own risk:
http://www.photodump.com/direct/PerfectBurn/gw058.jpg

Mesmer could have saved us all. I wont go back without one from now on.