Curse

Theos · Oct 07, 2005, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

I see few people using Mantra of Recovery, which is unfortunate - it is one of the best elites out there for what it does. The 15 energy cost is large, but if you are using energy recovery spells they recharge twice as fast during its duration, so you tend to make the energy up for the most part (harder now that they don't work as well however). I tend to favour the more energy-neutral spells* Shame and Guilt, as you will be using one or the other, or both in most battles, and the effect on those is nice - after all, they're a little infrequent without it, and in fact they help pay for the Mantra while you are at it. I think you are spot on in saying it's a great skill - the big difference between it and Echo is that Echo will work on a skill, while this only affects spells. I sometimes use signets in my builds, or stances, or skills, and Echo can function as any of those, which is a degree of flexibility that none of the others mentioned has.

Yup, good talking with you.

* I refer to them as energy-neutral, but they can be modest energy recovery as well, it depends of course on the Domination investment. These are some of the only spells I'd consider using at low levels of domination to good effect. You can pick up a 7+1 domination and these spells are basically free, covering their own costs if activated. A much overlooked pair of skills.

I will admit I did overlook the spell/skill difference in echo and mantra. Perhaps due to my use of mostly spells, unless I run one of my many *insert class* in mesmer clothing. It IS unfortunate that such a good stance is overlooked, perhaps because it is the only skill in the class or because mesmer never seem to donate to much to fast cast (everyone likes hugging the domination tree). As for the energy skills, they are still viable with mantra of recovery, if you are like me and run about 10-12 fast (based on the build) your mantra will be up long enough to allow you to cast the energy engines twice, even guilt/shame can be done twice.
So lets see: 50 normal energy (I run defense mods not insightful up the wazoo).
- I spend 5 energy to cast Energy Tap* (while it is casting, since there is still a small casting time) I quickly throw on the Mantra.
- I lose 15 energy and poof gain 12. Pretty much cost me 8 energy to make everything run at top speed.
- Mantra will be up with time to spare for when Etap* comes back, so I cast it again gain another 12 energy, and since mantra was on while Etap* was cast it comes back faster.
* Etap can be replaced by Guilt/Shame or both.

Perhaps the downfall of Mantra can be its "spell" only clause, and I will agree with you if you run sigs and stances then echo is good for you. I just can't call Echo a great skill, so I will lose out and no longer call Mantra a great skill, just a very very very good skill, like echo

.

As for guilt/shame by themselves, I agree they are overlooked. Whenever I run them, since I am not a domination tree hugger, I run them at maximum 10-11 domination, wastrels is still useful and so is shatter del at this level, I am not trying to be an elementalist running mesmer skills. This 10-11 dom allowance, so to say, gives me a small energy boost and a nifty interupt bonus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pmpilius

It's interesting to see the difference in opinion between the inspiration mesmers (Theo, notably) and the domination mesmers (e.g. me).
I'd never bring most of the skills Theo recommends, like Wastrels Worry, because although it does decent damage and is spammable, if the target uses ANY skill in three seconds it simply ends without doing any damage. IME that happens more often than not.

On the other hand shatter hex & backfire & empathy are my main damage dealers. I can safely assume that a healer i've put backfire on is out of the game, and I often echo shatter hex for 2 x 124 points AoE, and any melee enemy who gets empathy on them will lose at least half health before it wears off.
With the new interface interrupts are quite useful too. I think I get most of my in-battle energy from interrupts now. Again, those dwarven necros with their life transfer spamming & looong and easily interrupted animate bone minion casts are my best weapons.

Chaos storm isn't useless, it does quite a lot of damage to bunched-up enemies but it's not a major damage dealer unless you echo it. It's a nice "softening up" spell though, and I sometimes bring it.

Mesmers can't compete with echo nukers for damage (2 x meteor shower @ 15 fire does INSANE amounts of damage & adds knockdown), but my experience is that my mesmer takes down enemies quicker in PvE than my axe warrior. She just can't tank worth a damn.

I, personally, am not just an inspiration mesmer. I simply like to leave my options open, however I am not just another cookie mesmer*. As we all know there is an illusion line

... though from most of the mesmer I have ever seen in pve that branch doesn't exist, so then all the more fun for me

. As for wastrels, when ever I use that skill it is either used when I notice that the PvE chain of skills has been used** by the monster in question, or it simply is not on for 3 seconds, I usually have it deal about 100 damage in 1 second, yes this is possible. Throw in echo or mantra of recovery I can do that every 1-2 seconds. So in essence I can do more damage than any elementalist. The skill has its down falls, it requires inactivity on one side or two - three skills to make truly effective. Never stopped me though.

I am personally just not a fan, sometimes hater***, of Shatter Hex. I find empathy to be a very nice skill, but backfire is just a waste in my eyes. Guilt/Shame are better than backfire and its 10 s duration - 30 s recharge, not to mention that backfire is very often removed (atleast by the much smarter lower level dolys). Note: I am not bashing on you, its just this opinionated view that I have against two skill

.

Interupting is fun, but inspiration interupting is energetically good fun... ya bad pun. If I run interupt, seeing as how many people believe mesmers can only interupt, I run a dom/insp build and just interupt whatever might try to see the light of day. Interupting is fun, but damn when every group for tombs/UW/FoW wants only interupt it gets old... real quick.

*When ever I make a mesmer build I try to think outside of the box, sometimes combining old builds or dare I say it making cookies better.
**Chain skills: Monsters in PvE have a habit to simply go spell after spell and then go dormant for a while, simply wanding you.
***I hate the skills in question whenever I see a mesmer say "I am zee leet I deal so much damage! Everyone love my awesomeness for I am better than you!" I see this alot... for some reason alot of the mesmers thought they'd be some sort of super gods... if you want to see numbers scroll across your screen be an ele.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thisissayantan

Try Echo shatter hex at 16 Dom magic (125*2 = 250 dmg) followed by energy burn. Also, this is armor penetrating. Has a smaller cooldown time compared to meteor shower.

Thats not really alot of damage... especially over time. Its a spike, not an actual solid nuke. Also unless you plan on having everyone in one big ball so that shatter hex will hit everything, I doubt you can effectively echo spike this... well SF may allow spiking, since there are so many hexes, but other wise not really.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saerden

1. I am not looking for builds. Especially ones that are less efficient then the standard e/me. What i am looking for is to find out wether a mesmer has a place in a theorycrafted SF team, especially a PUG. You are free to post builds, but they should be better at killing stuff or helping to kill stuff.

2. I am not looking for creativity. Why i may want to try out a triple surge spike with 3 mesmers (for a total of 9 surges hitting for 96 dmg each ), or a dual/quickshot/savage on someone who is MOP/barbed with 5 rangers (alternative: barrage with OOP/OOV spamming necros who echod MOP on everyone in the mob) - i still am interested in the most straightforward way to play the game.

3. This was intended as an SF-only thread. It either should be moved, or we should focus on high level PvE content (UW,FoW,SF,Thunderhead keep).
I think its fair to not use the best warrior skill in the game: "I Will ruxXxor j00 with this Master Gear of D00m" as a fair comparision, else mesmers are useless most of the time anyway.

4. Note that there are 3 categories
- easy (can be done with mind switched of. like griffon farming of old)
- effective (mechanically the best option)
- fun (looks cool)

A complicated combo that does 0.5 more dps then what an ele could do while doing his taxes is nothing i would take into FoW

5. when discussing a skill, remember that there is that e/me just waiting to take your spot on the team. do you really want to take something he can do better...?

6. Since there are lots of mobs, and (almost) no raid-type content, you need to focus on mass-producing death. Shutting down one mob only helps if it increases kills/h (due to lower deaths/h for example).

7. The list is ment for discussion, if this reaches a stage where it will be usefull to others, it will include every mesmer skill in the game with recommendations on SF gameplay as well as conflicting opinions.

I will comment on the points brought up later when i have some more time.

1.) Well... Ele/Mes is probably better than a large portion of the mesmerin the game, atleast the majority of what I have seen is an elementalist dancing in mesmer clothing... or a domination memser who tries to do "uber" damage, for reference look at the shatter hex comments that have been made... boy I hate that skill ><
2.) Pass... I play only creativily...
3.) Only focusing on high level PvE, or atleast I am trying to.
4.) Most of the domination tree is "- easy (can be done with mind switched of. like griffon farming of old)" The other branches take some actual thinking to make useful.
5.) >_> "Omzor kick the mesmer and get another tank"
6.) Shuting down one enemy is not a bad thing, it increases focus on other enemies, it decreases over all damage, it makes that unit "dead", and usually makes death faster. Mass producing death is not always the best of the best, some mobs won't go down super death style, and I personally wish alot of mobs became smarter and wouldn't fall for the 90% cookie builds out there.
7.) I suggest putting up every skill to be bashed/destroyed/praised/etc... but then again none of us have that much time >_>

Boy that was fun, I await your great responses. To some degree however I believe that Epinephrine and myself have beaten the topic we started to discuss to near death... maybe we should start another discussion.

Arcanis the Omnipotent · Oct 08, 2005, 04:46 AM // 04:46

Well Saerden, since you and I never see Eye to Eye on any of this, I'll post my build and maybe you can figure it out.

FC: 7
Dom: 11
Illusion: 11
Air: 10

Energy Surge
Energy Burn
Chaos Storm
Conjure Phantasm
Phantom Pain (Unless I bring my Rez)
Lightning Strike
Eneveneration Charge
Chain Lightning.

As for Mob Damage, and you were saying that it has to be able to take out large ammounts of targets. Lets start it out.

Mob A
Cast Conjure Phantasm on one target, select the target next to it and cast Chaos Storm, go to another target and cast Energy Surge for a 64 Damage spread to the mob. Cast Chain Lightning on another guy (preferably on the other side of the mob). By this point Conjure will have run out, find the guy with the most health left, cast Conjure and Energy Burn on him.

There you go, one dead mob.

Use Strike and Charge on individual targets, usually the warrior who is attacking the monk, to cause both damage and weakness.

Amused Observer · Oct 08, 2005, 04:54 AM // 04:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charcoal Ann

not so sure about the apparent crappiness of Chaos Storm. if you come up against a Dolyak Master then it will definately take you more than 10 seconds to kill him (mark of protection). he will still be casting Orison. Choas storm would be good. if i ever saw any indication that mobs *ever* lose energy...

classic backfire, empathy skills are good. they are always good.

I use chaos storm for my aoe based Me/E. At 16 dom, that's 15 damage and -7 energy per second for 10 seconds. It's a fairly effective spell on casters b/c they will soon not have the energy to cast spells. And even if the mob spams RoF (i.e. smites), they can't stop all the damage from this spell. W/ the nerf, the energy gains and losses will now show up in purple.

Amused Observer · Oct 08, 2005, 05:18 AM // 05:18

To complete my input on this thread, my Me/E runs w/ chaos storm, arcane echo, firestorm, glyph of lesser energy, glyph of renewal [elite], backfire, ward melee, and rez sig. Pts go 12+4 dom, 9 fire, rest in earth and fast casting.

I target gnashers first, heretics, herders, ice golems, then rangers and carvers. I carry the ward melee b/c I find that I'm usually the target for mobs (rangers, herders, and carvers). The glyph renewal is a very nifty spell (post nerf) b/c along w/ arcane echo, I am able to cast 3 chaos storm, firestorm, or backfire, depending on the mob my party faces.

octaviancmb · Oct 08, 2005, 06:17 AM // 06:17

Speaking just about GF and SF, I'm very much a supporter of Shatter Hex. I don't think there's anything else that will give you this massive a damage spike with an AoE. In *other* areas of Guildwars, it's much less spectacular, so I can understand if people don't like the skill -- it's virtually never on my bar in other areas, either.

My 16 Domination Mesmer does far more damage than my 16 fire echo-nuker. I'm very much unimpressed by Fire damage over time in these high level areas -- things tend to have armor levels that negate huge portions of your damage (and as I've said in other threads, the only reason Fire elementalists are doing so much damage is that people tend to take two or three of them with them). I prefer Shatter Hex, Backfire, and Empathy. Empathy especially is excellent under Mantra or Echoed. Sure, some of you may call it "cookie cutter," but it's certainly less cookie cutter than an echo nuker.

Wastrel's Worry, too, can be a fine damage dealer. I used to think it was just horrible until I played through the game as a Necro and almost always got hit with WW damage. Wastrel's will regularly trigger on a necro or elementalist (player or monster) due to their extended casting times. It's also quite good to cast on melee mobs if they're chasing you. Wastrels and run around your tanks until the mobs are dead or the tanks have taken the agro back. There are other uses for PvP, but we're not talking about those here. However, this skill gets so much hate from players who don't really know any better that I'd never try to find a group by telling them I had it in my bar.

I've found Illusion Mesmers to be much harder to find groups for. People have a lot of hate toward the spammable Illusion spells (Fragility, Conjure Phantasm, etc), and there's also the perception problem (people expect you to be an interrupter, and Illusion is not the line for that). Illusion, however, contains some of my favorite spells: Clumsiness (great damage dealer, and fantastic under Mantra of Recovery) and Soothing Images (remarkable in SF). Illusion also combos quite well with other Mesmer lines, but people usually can't think that far.

The Inspiration line is just spectacular in all ways. Many of you have already commented on the greatness of this line, but I'll add that I've had a lot of success with Mantra of Earth (once I'm down in the Furnace proper). Those Summit Wardens have an annoying spike, and Mantra of Earth helps mitigate that, making a huge spike into a relatively minor annoyance.

For the OP, here are some reasons to include a Mesmer in your group

Ranger mobs tend to be a problem for elementalists. It's much, much more difficult for them to interrupt the damage spells of a Mesmer.
Mesmer damage is virtually always armor-ignoring.
You'll never have to wait on a Mesmer using Mesmer skills to recover from exhaustion.
Mesmers, since they don't rely on enchantments for their energy mitigation, function perfectly well standing in a Well of the Profane.
Mesmers take down bosses faster than anything else.

cmb

Theos · Oct 08, 2005, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by octaviancmb

I've found Illusion Mesmers to be much harder to find groups for. People have a lot of hate toward the spammable Illusion spells (Fragility, Conjure Phantasm, etc), and there's also the perception problem (people expect you to be an interrupter, and Illusion is not the line for that). Illusion, however, contains some of my favorite spells: Clumsiness (great damage dealer, and fantastic under Mantra of Recovery) and Soothing Images (remarkable in SF). Illusion also combos quite well with other Mesmer lines, but people usually can't think that far.
cmb

There you go, I am not the only one who knows that mesmers have a line beyond Domination... oh the joy

. By the way if you are going to be spamming climsiness, just go with echo... unless you plan on spamming other spells as well. How to get into a group with an illusion mesmer: Illude the group maker into thinking you are a cookie

Saerden · Oct 10, 2005, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Well after i found out that 55hp monkss best friend is a n/me, im curious wether there are other winning combos involving primary mesmers, espescially in SF.

The main problem is SF itself. It may seem high-end, but the master gear of doom makes tactics irrelevant most of the time. I base my assumptions on mobs clustered farming style attacking a protected tank. That may be unfair.

I also edited the main post. When i find some time, i will try to comment on some of the points mentioned in this thread. I think some dps calculations may or may not prove me (and many other players) wrong.

Arcanis the Omnipotent · Oct 11, 2005, 04:25 AM // 04:25

I think what you want is a Mesmer/Monk whose only job is to protect everyone else, given that the skills you ask for are shutdown and anti-hex.

Brother Redmund · Oct 11, 2005, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Well then, from what I have read of the mesmer purists out there, you're gonna hate what I have to say. I farm sorrows using my mesmer every few days with a w/mo guild mate of mine. We take mhenlo and lina and off we go.
The skill set I find gives me the most fluid casting approach for my char is:
energy tap
chaos storm
conjure phantasm
shatter delusions
empathy
backfire
energy drain - elite
res sig

when it comes to farming SF mobs, I tend to hit gnasher/warden/taskmaster with backfire straight up, my tank mate engages the melee monsters so i throw chaos storm on the mob around him, followed by phantasm and empathy on one, e-tap or e-drain for leech, shatter delusions ends phantasm with near 80dmg bonus.

I know ppl will look at this and scoff; probably rightly so too, based on the plethora of builds ppl are using to farm. having said this, i find it is most successful, having two leech spells means i very rarely wait to for regen to cast. i have tried shame and/or guilt on a number of runs but for the 10 secs duration i would prefer one spike of a backfire for 147dmg rather than pinching 14 energy.

I have farmed fairly successfully, and having found a good method, we can do it 2 of us and 2 monk henches. my favourite combo is for support of tanks: phantasm, empathy, leech spell, shatter delusions; and despite the shortcomings of each spell in direct comparison with another that could occupy your skillbar, if you string them together and time it well, your tank companion can find himself wondering why he only got to hit that stone summit dwarf once or twice before it died.

great discussion, hopefully no-one cans my build too much, or as being too "easy", cos i feel it still requires a fair degree of skill and timing to execute well. thnx all!

BannyD · Oct 12, 2005, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Ive been reading this over and had some thoughts of my own on how to utilize mesmers in sf incredibly...im not sure if this would work but if anyone can try and tell me id be greatful

Mesmer/Monk (tank):
Ineptitude [E], Clumsiness, Phantom Pain, Conjure Phantasm, energy tap, spirit of failure, distortion, rebirth

Illusion - 16 (12+4)
Inspiration - 12 (11+1)
Fast Cast - 7 (6+1)

this mesmer can take on several warriors at once. drop spirit of failure then ineptitude on one followed by phantom pain, clumsiness, and conjure phantasm or whatever you can cast before spirit of failure is up again..cast it on another fighter type. if you keep distortion up you should be gaining energy everytime you are attacked while maintaining DoT's and spiking Ineptitude + Clumsiness

you are bound to have hex's cast on you frequently and as well are highly suceptible (sp?) to spells. it might be wise to have another mesmer (possible necro secondary) in your group who uses the dom tree shattering the hexes cast on you as well as hurting groups and casters with chaos storm + backfire respectively. if necro secondary, he can utilize price of failure on the mobs your tanking. (can also throw in empathy and hell even spiteful spirit for AoE dmg)

evillorderic · Oct 16, 2005, 10:15 PM // 22:15

I have been running this build for SF farming for about a week, and I must say it has gone very well. Usually I can get off two firestorms, and a chaos storm before the other ele can got off their first spell (maybe 2)

Arcane Echo
Chaos Storm
Fire Storm
Energy Surge
Shatter Hex
Backfire
Power Spike

I have just enough energy so that never tends to be a problem, and if the warrior aggros correctly, say bye bye to the giant group of monsters in a few seconds.

It is still very hard to get a group, people are pretty much stuck with the whole Tank, 2 nuker, and 2 monk teams. I have a hard time 'advertising' myself too. Usually I just stick with Fast Casting Nuker LFG farming blah blah blah' That gets some attention, but not a lot :\