Curse

Guizzy · Sep 27, 2005, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Sorry for the broken english; but it's not my primary language.

You got it right, kawai; most people have this idea that only warriors, monks and (to an extent) elementalists are needed. Watch that group try to topple a boss monk in SF. Now replace a warrior by a mesmer or a water ele (which do not count as an ele much; considering the "OMG, u water? W4+er suxX! tahke f1r3|||" I get from the average whammo) with maelström. A good trapper can solo many things. A good death necro (they're not very popular right now, because their aggro is a little wild), but in the right situation, they can tank an army by themselves.

No, it does not "go without saying" that 2-3 monks is the easiest or most fool-proof way of doing it. In many PvE, these groups fail because they can't kill the enemy before another group wanders into aggro range. They gear up for long fights. Think about Thunderhead Keep... When that Perfected Armor comes up to you, do you really want to waste all that time trying to kill him while monks are healing you? No, you need it down quick, because other groups are still coming in and might kill the king.

As for having "only" one monk in PvP, no one is giving good arguments why two monks is a necessity. Read my previous post: the slot that is not used by a second monk is not wasted! The character in its stead could be a well necro, could be a spiker ele. Could be a wicked mesmer that'll take away one enemy monk in 5 seconds. Could be a knockdown warrior that'll keep enemies from even being in sight of your monk. Could be a cripple ranger that'll slow enemies warriors so well they won't be a problem for anyone.

The person in that spot is extra strength. When you compare 1 monk groups to 2 monk groups, everyone seem to assume they both have the same firepower (or subtle power if that's your thing). They do not; that extra firepower could be worth much more than an extra monk.

Bear in mind that I never said this was all definitive. It's full of "coulds", "mights" and "seems". I am not trying to prove 2 monks is worse. I'm trying to prove it's highly debatable. Considering the intelligent debate taking place here, I'd say I succeeded. I don't expect people never to use two monks. But to have them realise that when they systematically quit a group because they don't have two monks, they might be quitting the next FotM.

Rico Carridan · Sep 27, 2005, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Just to comment quickly. I play mostly monk and elementalist, and am fairly proficient at both. I've dabbled in other classes as well, with varying success. As a monk, what I will say is that in PvE, a single good monk should be able to heal and keep the party condition free without too much trouble, as long as everyone has some clue what they're doing. That is, IF the monk has a proper energy management skill. A lot of monks don't, and that's why they get into trouble. Some areas (dragon's lair pops to mind) are much better to do with two monks, but it still isn't absolutely necessary. Similarly with tanks, I like having at least one on my team, but I can keep a tank ranger alive just as well as a warrior, or heck, even a death necro can cover the tanking equivalent in PvE. PvE can be played pretty much any way you want, and virtually any group can be successful if they know what they're doing.

On the other hand, PvP is a lot different. The big difference is that monsters will typically attack the first target to aggro them. Real people will target your monks and mesmers first, and the rules change. Monks don't have very efficient self-heals, and you can't bring enough skills to effectively protect/heal yourself, heal your party, mend conditions or remove hexes, and manage your energy. So you bring another monk along, preferably one with a skillset that will compliment your primary monk's. A protector and healer, is, in my experience, *much* more effective than two pure healers.

Rico

Aetherfox · Sep 28, 2005, 01:51 AM // 01:51

haha don't beat up on guizzy's english, it's not my primary either =p

haha guizzy you're absolutely right about the problem with thunderhead... the major roadbump is the mursaat boss, and you want to be able to output as much damage into him as possible, which means bringing along as few monks as you can. but the boss drops pretty fast anyway - the monk boss just needs to be diversioned, while the others can be killed by disrupting choping their heal ability.

Quote:

As for having "only" one monk in PvP, no one is giving good arguments why two monks is a necessity.

i did already say something about this earlier : a 3 monk defense is the most solid defense, and it works great. but there's no reason why any number of monks builds will fail to work. i'm willing to bet that any rank<100 guild could win halls with anything from an 8 monk to 0 monk setup if they wanted to. people have already done it with 8 warriors - with 8 necromancers - anything is possible in pvp.

one reason perhaps, is that tombs is a very much defense oriented game. as the altar holder you will have 2 teams attacking you at once and so you need to be a very defensively focused team : against an enemy outnumbering you 2 to 1... if you wanna live longer... you gotta beef up the defense, coz beefing up your offense just ensures you inflict perhaps 1 or 2 more casualties on the enemy team before going down hard.

Arturo02 · Sep 28, 2005, 07:35 AM // 07:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aetherfox

haha don't beat up on guizzy's english, it's not my primary either =p

I'm just goofing, you guys made good points. More betterer I might add. Hehe I couldn't resist.

Rusty Deth · Sep 29, 2005, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Being a monk, I can see going with one monk...

I use both Protection and Healing when heading out. The protection helps tremendously on reducing healing casts. Also I make sure I got enough healing equiped in case of a sticky situation.

Not to forget Ward against Elements for the enemie nukers just in case a mesmer ain't around.

Funny story though. I did Ice Caves of Sorrow with a group. 2xWa 2xMo 2xEl N R. I thought I was going to be healing my butt off. But really I just used protection spells, no one died. And we went thru i with ease, and then it hit me.

We did so good cause everyone was doing their part on keeping themselves alive. the Wars used stances, the Ele's and R we always behind the party. And the N was blooding everything.

We really only needed one monk. Cause hell I felt I was there just for the ride and maybe shoudl have paid a runner fee to someone. lol

So yeah one monk is possible.

As for Tombs. Well I'm in poverty right now. So not much to do in there for me. lol

Amn_En_Tarsath · Nov 28, 2005, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Multiple Monks are simply a safety net, nothing less, nothing more. Before you try to bash the Monks (and to a degree the warriors) you should really bash the rest of the team if they are in need of a second monk.
That mostly states one thing, they know nothing about the game and just accidently clicked their build together. Just try to convince someone to bring a selfheal. You are acting a play.. Don Quichote against the infamous Windmills.

But to give the devil his due, i've seen a LOT bad Rangers/Mesmers/Necromancers. Especially in the highlevel areas i'd say that 98% of them are total utter useless crap. Go go Chaos Storm! And no, that was just not only one of them... there is a whole army of Chaos Storm/Conjure Phantasm Mesmers. As well as CRAPPY Minionmasters who think that keeping the minions alive is 100 % the monks job.

Unless the morons learn to play the game, YOU should learn to treat the monks with respect. Neither of which will come and thus, the really good monks won't play with you. So as a final statement, just out of your own unfriendly and harsh tone and that huge hatred you feel towards these classes you are making sure that teams with you in them will need atleast that second monk.
Allways takes me wonder why people think that monk will join their team if they are advertising with "we need one RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing moron monk to complete this damned mission."
Funny isn't it? :P

Kwisatz_Haderach · Nov 28, 2005, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Personally, i agree with not needing as many warriors (if any), but i believe you need the extra monk just for the extra safety net.

From my experience in pve, one warrior can tie up most aggroe if that guy is smart and does have a trapper or a water elementalist helping him with slowing down the enemies. However in pvp and gvg some of the best builds i believe dont even need it warrior. Dont get me wrong I run a warrior myself and can either tank forever or throw out so much damage it makes elementalists cry, BUT i doubt most warriors know how to and can do so with reasonable guarentee. But the most important reason is very simple: NOONE GOES FOR THEM!!!! The only idiots who will attack someone running at you with around 100 armor are either noobs or those evil anti-warrior mesmers running around. This takes out the primary purpose of the warrior TANKING! So you waste a spot on a profession that thanks to human inteligence is TOTALY WORTHLESS! Dont get me wrong I love having all that armor and stuff but up against a good team your ignored till the end were you got a whole bunch of angry elementalists air spiking you, so give me a decent anything other than a typical warrior in pvp.

On the monk, I believe you need at least 2 if not 3 to run an effective build. Lets think about this elementalist A has junk armor but can spike for say 300 damage every 15 seconds (all estimates). Say a warrior runs up and starts hacking away at an average of 50 damage per second. The elementalist unloads and takes the warrior down to 200 health. Who is going to get ele through the 15 seconds? Why a monk! This shows the power of a monk allowing all the other professions to go past the potential of their typical health and thus being able to do more overall damage. This roughly means if you have a monk its like doubly or tripling the number of people on your team just because everyone lives longer so theydo more damage. However when your running around in a team of 8 people in tombs that is a whole lot of people to keep tract of, especially if you have a noob warrior running up behind you hacking you into 2. So what do you do? Get another monk to keep tract of the other half of the team.

Overall, due to the way the game is being played right now monks are invaluble and typical warriors are useless. Dont get me wrong there will always be that amazing warrior who can take the entire other team or a noob monk that does nothing but calling everyone on your team noobs and forgeting to heal them,BUT the typical warrior is useless and the typical monk is invaluble.

Csquirrelrun · Nov 28, 2005, 11:25 PM // 23:25

I have to agree that a good monk is a rare thing. My friend told me to make my first character a monk because everyone wants one in there group. So I read up on energy management and analysed the skills I had on offer. I can honestly say that so for almost every mission I have been in has gone without a major hitch. Often I was the only monk which I like just fine because in PvE, atleast in the beginning and middle, you seldom have more than 2 party members taking serious damage. When teamed with two monks I find that although it becomes hard for a party member to die a lot of energy is lost when both monks target and heal the same person. Of course this is mainly due to bad communication and tactics but when you've got fast casting spells that heal a large amount, Heal Other for e.g, no matter how well you communicate there will still be overcompensation.

Now that I am playing other characters, such as mesmer and warrior etc I find myself repeating missions, bonuses and quests over and over. I end up waiting around for a monk that isn't afk to join our group only to realise that at level 13 they still have failed to realise that usually people would like them to heal rather than smite.

I'm not trying to make myself look better than all the other monks out there because there are plenty much better than me, but you have to wonder when your primary healer with 2 energy regen uses Heal Party 2 seconds after you have aggroed a small group and the only person below even 75% health is your tank. And then complains when you start attacking the next group because their energy has run out.

labsenpai · Nov 28, 2005, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guizzy

And while we're on the subject, I'd like to talk about monks. It's kind of a taboo, but... Most of you suck. Really, really badly. You don't hear it very often because most people are afraid to lose their precious monk.

Consider this: How many groups prefer to sacrifice that additional party slot for another monk, rather than a slot off their skill bars for a self-heal? Is that the fault of the monk? Monk #2 is a placebo for folks with lopsided builds, and an excuse not to utilize defensive skills/friendly buffing.

As for this "taboo"...show me a monk who doesn't swallow complaints like a sand worm eating noobs. For that matter, show me a player that wants an explanation as to how they died. We monks process a lot of crap, but nobody wants fertilizer for better tactics in return.

Yellow_lid · Nov 29, 2005, 12:16 AM // 00:16

IMHO You usually need 1 monk, 2 is overdone (not to mention double healing), and like has been said drops the damage output tremendously. If the group each does their part (which includes a measure of self preservation) then it doesn't really matter what the group is made up of (as long as they focus).

For Example: I run the Blood Necro through PvP, I am a Warriors WORST nightmare, I can litterally take them down in 10seconds if their healer isn't paying attention. However I'm INCREDIBLY suceptible to Mesmers, so when the group starts I ask the group not to focus on the W cause I can take him down, but I CAN'T take down the mesmer. Usually there isn't a monk in my TA PvP group because there is won't be any dmg dealers left on the opposing team, the W is dead, the Me is dead, Blood N (if present is the next to go).

I think people need to be a little less picky in their builds, it's a game! Try something new! If it doesn't work, OH WELL! Try comething else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guizzy

All in all, the extra damage/utility of an added damage dealer, or an interrupter, or a snarer, a trapper or a curser is as good an addition to a team as a second monk.

I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH YOU!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guizzy

PS: I'm not saying monks and warriors are useless, only that it's a lie that they are more needed than ANY other class.

No one class is da-bomb. They all have their purpose in bringing the team to victory, they are all equally good, but "EVERYTHING IN MODERATION" isn't a bad idea.

VGJustice · Nov 29, 2005, 12:56 AM // 00:56

to Guizzy, I actually know what you're talking about. You get these "so called" good players joining a PUG in PvE, and the first thing they scream out is "Get more X". Generally, these sub-par players will state "Get 2 monks and 2 Warrs or I leave". The reason? Well, they honestly believe that the rest of the team has absolutely no idea what they're doing, so they try to cover all their basses by overkilling with the healing. Either that, or they honestly believe that the game is impossible without said combination of players. I see this a lot in Sorrow's Furnace. Which isn't as hard as the Defend North Kryta quest, which I beat with only one healer, and with myself PB Trapping Healing Spring and being a Melee Ranger. The game is really and honestly not that hard, not ever. If you need more than one healer to keep you alive, you had better seriously re-think your stategy and your skills. You are doing something wrong.

The worst one I've ever seen was this twerp that joined my group as the fifth player. He immediatly demanded 3 monks (2 healers, 1 prot), 2 tanks, and 2 nukers or he'd quit. So I booted him. I just got this immediate feeling that he was going to doom us all.

Sephir Demange · Nov 29, 2005, 04:33 AM // 04:33

Wooo, ok lets get a few things straightened out in this thread. First things first, this is a pvp area of the forums. Therefore I'll approach it as such. Lets look at tombs for the moment. There are death matches with or without a priest, there are alter caps, and then there are relic runs. Would 1 monk fair well when trying to keep both his team AND his ghost alive, while still facilitating the capturing of an alter with both guardian and spell breaker? I don't think so. And on a relic run, would 1 monk be able to be close enough to the teams main offensive point and still be able to reach and heal his relic runner? Also doubtful. And would one monk be able to keep a team alive against a 16 person gank that would undoubtedly happen if such a build ever took halls? Answer for yourselves. Also, as for the inclusion of another damage dealer in place of a monk, I've seen teams keep people alive against the onslaught of a perfect rainbow spike, do you really believe one or even two extra damage dealer will cripple a good 3 monk backline? If you are trying to invent a near monkless team it's already been done, and it's called IWAY. The point is valid for PvE, but then you really are just fighting a silly AI that is adapted only when necessary to screw up solo farming. In competetive PvP a strong balance of offense and defence will ALWAYS be necessary for reliable wins.

glenn_rolfe · Nov 30, 2005, 04:23 AM // 04:23

There are monkless builds like IWAY, trapper team that use non monk heals like IWAY and healing spring ball, but in the end they are useless in tombs and GvG with the strategies required.

I have no point really, so I'll get back to doing what I do best..........burning

ivanbrooking · Nov 30, 2005, 04:36 AM // 04:36

cool debate...I only do PvE, and use mostly henchies. I find that the more varied the party the better it performs, although I usually take 2 Monks and 2 Warriors, and I'm a W/Mo (surprised?). Mind you, saying that, 4 of us completed the infusion run and mission the other day. Our party was me (w/mo) a r/e, mo and e/me. I had to tank like crazy and it took us ages to kill the beasties but we did it. It felt really good afterwards.

Thailii Monkey · Nov 30, 2005, 04:55 AM // 04:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by VGJustice

I just got this immediate feeling that he was going to doom us all.

I get that feeling everytime i see somone use healing brezze :l

Sephir Demange · Nov 30, 2005, 05:46 AM // 05:46

It's funny, I never use healing breeze, but one of the most reliable monks I've ever met used it as a rule. And he was too good for people to complain about him using breeze. Again, he's the only one I've EVER seen get away with it in PvP.

Shen Xi · Nov 30, 2005, 04:41 PM // 16:41

You're right on the pve side of thigns, you can do the whole thing with just hench if you really felt like ti.

However you are so very wrong when it comes to the pvp side of things as pointed out by Sephir Demange.

you admit you know nothing about tombs, so why argue with people who are a lot mroe expreince and got past more than the first 2 rounds?

you say what does it tell you when the furthest you got was with that oddball team you mentioned? what it means is that you came across other crappy PUGs and they sucked more than your team did, and/or you might have had a modicum of team work compared to their none.

*everytime a pve player posts claiming knowlege over pvp players about pvp it makes the baby jesus cry - don't do it people!*

Gwenhywar · Nov 30, 2005, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guizzy

Now, for tombs group, I do not argue a monk is needed. But EVERY class is needed there. And you have enough slots to get them all. 2 monks, however, is usually seen as necessary, which it is not. I've rarely been far in the Tombs

Was that an intentional flamebait, or just an attempt to make my hillarious signatures collection larger? ^^

What you said about PvE and monks is mostly right (most things not requiring monks, etc). But since you admitted yourself to have no clue about how things work in tombs, maybe you should refrain from issuing statements regarding monking there.

Although you'd certainly make Ian Boyd proud, no doubt about that!

JR · Dec 01, 2005, 08:53 AM // 08:53

Talking PvE:

A single GOOD solo monk could do any mission if the players were half competant, because PvE is easy. It's just nice to run two just incase. As much as I enjoy getting to the last Mursaat boss on Thunderhead and having the only monk Err=7, I would rather avoid it if possible.

Talking PvP:

Over the last few months there *has* been a shift in the metagame. Originally from 4 monk teams, where attrition was key, then to the standard 3 monk backline, and now to a two monk backline with more focus on spike (in GvG at least). However, that last change to two monks is not because they are any worse, but because in a spike metagame there is very little pressure damage for monks to deal with. In tombs however, for a "balanced" group I would still not take less than three monks. Why? Because the amount of AoE around in tombs is pretty insane on altar maps, and keeping both your team and your Hero alive can be a tad difficult. A lot of top guilds have experimented with making single monk builds viable, but just found it did not work at all.

ANYWAY. To the original poster:

Your point is complete rubbish because you don't understand how the game works.

Lightning Orb:

Description:Lightning Orb flies towards target foe and strikes for 10-82 lightning damage if it hits. This Spell has 25% armor penetration.
Energy Cost: 15
Casting Time: 2 seconds
Recharge Time: 5 seconds

Heal Other:

Description: Heal target other ally for 35-151 Health.
Energy Cost: 10
Casting Time: 3/4 seconds
Recharge Time: 3 seconds

THAT is why you take monks, because quite simply, healing is more powerfull than damage. That is the way it is, the way it always has been, and the way it probobly always will be.

Joe L. · Dec 03, 2005, 04:34 AM // 04:34

On the pve side, it is definitely correct. One monk is all that is needed. I play a monk as one of my characters, and I have had no problems with any of the missions, even ones my ranger suffered through. I spearhead the assembly of the groups I'm in, just so I can be clear on what needs to happen. Later on in the game, a mesmer is invaluable, because let's face it:most warriors stumble into [email protected] city when they run off into a group of mursaat. *note: I said most*. I thought it was rather humorous seeing the reaction in Thunderhead, when I, being the monk, and leader exressed desire for any dom mesmer. People were shocked, and had no prob telling me so. But when I got one, he clearly knew his purpose, and we got the job done on the first try. Also, I've even cleared Ring of Fire with hench.

Pvp however is an entirely different monster, and that argument will have to wait from me.