Curse

Wyrmdog · Nov 09, 2005, 07:34 PM // 19:34

I've lurked these forums off and on for a few months now and I'm still not finding what I'm looking for. Additionally, my Search-Fu is weak and that isn't helping me much either. Perhaps the answer has been in front of me all this time and I just missed it, I'm not quite sure. If it is, please point me there and I'll go away.

I realize there is a strong prejudice here against Warrior/Monks, but that's the build of my Warrior (L10, currently). This admission is for frame of reference only.

So on to my actual inquiry:

How does aggro work in this game? I play PvE almost exclusively and made my Warrior to be a tank, but tanking doesn't work like it has in the other games I've played. There are times when I pound away at a monster for days on end (warning: Hyperbole Alert) and I can't pull it off its target, and other times I can ignore something being nuked and it stays on me anyway.

My favorite characters in World of Warcraft were my Warrior and Paladin. I didn't understand aggro very well when I started the Paladin, but read up so I could be an effective tank with my Warrior. The thing that stuck out in my head is that aggro is never discussed in-game to teach potential tanks, casters, and healers how to manage their hate when it matters. So hitting the boards, I found some excellent guids on hate, aggro management, and General Tanking 101.

Now that I understand the basic mechanics behind aggro, I like to think I'm a fantastic tank for that game (only others are qualified to approve or disapprove this hope). I'd like to learn how to effectively tank Guild Wars.

Now for what I know and what I think I know:

I know the aggro circle is the general space in which monsters will aggro on you. From what I've read, I believe that connected aggro circles alert monsters to the presence of everyone in the chain of aggro circles.

I've read that carrying something other than a weapon, like a box, increases the chance monsters will dislike you and attack you.

So, now for the questions I have:

What is aggro based on? What causes a monster to want my death more than the squishies in my party?

Is it based on damage? If so, I'm afraid I'm in trouble. Is it based on set amounts for different attacks and spells? If so, where do I find this information?

Does healing generate aggro? If so, is it AoE like in WoW? Additionally, what's the ratio compared to damage? Is it 1-for-1?

I've not seen any taunt-style skills yet. What are the implications for this game given they do not seem to exist? How do I peel aggro off a squishie? I suppose this goes back to my earlier question about what causes aggro.

In short I'm curious how, as a tank, I can manage aggro for a team. What are the strategies, skills, and mechanics I need to know?

Thanks, and if you read all that, you should get a cookie.

Racthoh · Nov 09, 2005, 07:42 PM // 19:42

The forum right above you as I post this may be of some help to you. But in case it isn't, here is the link:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=75416

As far as the overall aggro is concerned, there is one major thing that you need to realize. When a red dot enters your aggro circle on the radar (the little white circle), that enemy will engage you. Any allies within your aggro circle, will be recognized by those enemies. Most of the time, the enemies will go after whichever target will drop faster.

I can't say this with 100% certainty, but in my experience after someone has a mob surrounded it the enemies can break off. Generally, and this is just in my experience, if someone is dealing a lot of damage to the mob that is what will cause them to break off.

Wyrmdog · Nov 09, 2005, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Yeah, I've been following that thread, and while helpful, doesn't really discuss some of the more fundamental things I'm curious about. It covers certain builds and playstyles, but isn't showing me WHY those things work. If I understand why, then I can meaningfully utilize my skills to tank.

Maybe I'm just not reading it deeply enough.

I'll keep reading it, though, because it's probably the best on the subject I've seen so far, I just didn't want to derail it with questions on minutiae.

striderkaaru · Nov 09, 2005, 08:17 PM // 20:17

racthoh basically has it right.

one thing to keep in mind is that enemies usually travel in "mobs." this is easy to notice on your mini map because they will often patrol the same path together or loiter in the same area. it's easy to pick out mobs if you just stand and watch for a bit. sometimes, they tend to wander around for a while and then suddenly run and clump up. this is how you can pick off which enemies are parts of which mobs. basically, if you aggro an enemy from one mob, you aggro the whole mob. it doesn't matter how far apart they are spread out. the others will come running to you.

so for example, there are two mobs near your party. one (mob a) has members that are wandering about, while one (mob b) is all clumped up. one member of mob a has wandered past mob b. you decide to aggro mob a. all of mob a will then run to you, even the far off one, while mob b will stay put. since you didn't aggro anyone from mob b, you are still essentially non-existent to them.

once you have aggro, the enemies are basically just engaged. they won't lock onto you until they actually hit you. this is why, if a melee is running towards you and one of your casters is too close behind you, it will quickly stop and switch targets. so your casters have to be far enough away so that they don't attract the melee enemies. once the melee start hitting you, that's when they are locked. i only mention melee because i feel like the ranged and caster enemies switch targets around too much and there's no way to ensure aggro from them.

in terms of breaking the "lock," in my experience, it has been movement that breaks it. if you stay in one spot while being attacked by melee enemies, they will rarely break aggro. if you move, that often breaks the aggro and they will repick targets. bodyblocking also forces them to repick targets. one sure way of taking aggro from a melee running for your caster is to step directly in its path. when it stops, it will often just start attacking you.

Racthoh · Nov 09, 2005, 08:32 PM // 20:32

As far as taking aggro off of a soft target, there is one method that Strider didn't mention that *sometimes* works. Suppose a warrior enemy is chasing one of your monks, I find that if you knockdown that enemy, block the path it was running in, then attack it you will regain its focus.

Again, I won't say with 100% certainty that this will always work because I have not done the adequate testing to back up my experiences.

striderkaaru · Nov 09, 2005, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

As far as taking aggro off of a soft target, there is one method that Strider didn't mention that *sometimes* works. Suppose a warrior enemy is chasing one of your monks, I find that if you knockdown that enemy, block the path it was running in, then attack it you will regain its focus.

Again, I won't say with 100% certainty that this will always work because I have not done the adequate testing to back up my experiences.

good point. i knew i was missing something.

i will verify this myself as i usually run a hammer build. if you knock an enemy down, position yourself directly between it and its original target, it will lock onto you once it gets up.

DeanBB · Nov 09, 2005, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Yes, good advise about getting the enemies locked on a warrior with the squishies behind, outside of their aggro bubble. I don't think your "chain of aggro bubbles" is a correct theory though (OP).

My son and I have ventured forth quite a bit, he as warrior, me as monk, and I stay behind and keep him ahead of my aggro bubble. Once the enemies engage him then I will step forward to cast spells or attack with the staff and melee-types will not break off from him to attack me, even though I'm doing most of the damage by smiting thru the warrior.

Casters and ranged attackers seem to me to change targets more, especially those with interrupts.

Elsydian · Nov 09, 2005, 08:52 PM // 20:52

I have nothing to offer in terms of answers or help, but I do understand the OPs point here and wanted to comment. Aggro in WoW has a completely different feel than GW. In Wow aggro is another layer to the combat system, something that you can count on to act a certain way, and something that your actions have a direct effect on (ie taunt skills, pally's Blessing of Salvation, talents to reduce threat generation from arcane, etc.).

But GW is lacking in this layer of combat, offering no skills directly related to the idea of one character specifically pulling more aggro from a creature than another character. When the Elem starts nuking and pulls aggro from a mob what can the warrior do (reliably) to bring that mobs attention back to him and off the Elem? Is damage the only deciding factor in building aggro? Can applying DoTs or conditions generate aggro in amounts that could get a mobs attention? The lack of skills dedicated to aggro/threat suggests to me that GW doesn't really have this layer of combat (compared to WoW), which very dissappointing.

DeanBB · Nov 09, 2005, 09:12 PM // 21:12

The problem with "aggro me" skills is the whole PvP aspect of the game where you pick your own targets. Sure you can get knocked down, interrupted, crippled, etc but you still get to choose who you attack. You wouldn't want to be attacking a monk and then uncontrollably be drawn to attacking a warrior because he's loosed some shout.

There are no separate PvP and PvE skills, they are all usable in either aspect of the game.

striderkaaru · Nov 09, 2005, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elsydian

I have nothing to offer in terms of answers or help, but I do understand the OPs point here and wanted to comment. Aggro in WoW has a completely different feel than GW. In Wow aggro is another layer to the combat system, something that you can count on to act a certain way, and something that your actions have a direct effect on (ie taunt skills, pally's Blessing of Salvation, talents to reduce threat generation from arcane, etc.).

But GW is lacking in this layer of combat, offering no skills directly related to the idea of one character specifically pulling more aggro from a creature than another character. When the Elem starts nuking and pulls aggro from a mob what can the warrior do (reliably) to bring that mobs attention back to him and off the Elem? Is damage the only deciding factor in building aggro? Can applying DoTs or conditions generate aggro in amounts that could get a mobs attention? The lack of skills dedicated to aggro/threat suggests to me that GW doesn't really have this layer of combat (compared to WoW), which very dissappointing.

in this respect, i actually feel like gw has an extra layer of combat rather than missing it. do you have any idea how incredibly boring a warrior's job would be if he could simply reclaim lost aggro at the touch of a button (taunt skill)? with that system, the casters don't have anything to worry about at all because they know aggro can be reclaimed easily.

with the current system, the whole party has to know what to do. an elem under attack has to know that he can't continue casting his 4 sec cast time spell when he has enemies pounding on him. at that point, it's not about what a warrior can do reliably but the rest of the party knowing when and how to run. it's the whole party's responsibility.

it also adds a sense of realism when pve enemies switch targets based on who they think is easier to take down. being able to count on them acting a certain way or affecting their actions with some skill just dulls the game down.

Racthoh · Nov 09, 2005, 09:29 PM // 21:29

If you looking for the attack me button, it's called a Torch, Gear, Unholy Text, or any other item that you can pick up.

But if you want to actually get a sense of strategy I would advise against using one of these 'tricks'. Fortunately you'll find these items in all of the challenging points in the game (FoW, SF, Thunderhead Keep) so actually developing teamwork skills is almost entirely unessential in PvE anymore.

Wyrmdog · Nov 09, 2005, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeanBB

Yes, good advise about getting the enemies locked on a warrior with the squishies behind, outside of their aggro bubble. I don't think your "chain of aggro bubbles" is a correct theory though (OP).

My son and I have ventured forth quite a bit, he as warrior, me as monk, and I stay behind and keep him ahead of my aggro bubble. Once the enemies engage him then I will step forward to cast spells or attack with the staff and melee-types will not break off from him to attack me, even though I'm doing most of the damage by smiting thru the warrior.

I just meant in the initial aggro grab, if the bubbles overlap, some things I've read indicate that the monsters will then attack whomever they feel that exists in the 'chain.' Like I said, though, I'm well aware that could be totally wrong.

So, movement, blocking, maybe interrupts.

From the replies so far, it seems that once you lock aggro, only a changing condition like movement will break it and there are no artificial aggro levels to manage.

This is at once, a good and bad thing.

I enjoy the fact that I can block a path and the indications that this is helpful in gaining or regaining aggro are especially useful. It adds another layer of tactical thought and planning to the game and I like that.

On the other hand, I find it interesting that nukes and heals don't draw attention if the monster is already engaged. I mean, the other day I solo'd 4 Charr, one of whom was a caster. I knew I was going to die so I focused on the caster and killed him before the others nailed me. Then I went back and mopped up the caster-less 3.

It doesn't make sense that enemy monsters would completely ignore the casters if they could leave one guy on me and run for them. If I had ignored the caster, I would have simply thrown myself against those Charr over and over, never gaining any ground and only increasing my DP as he fried my tiny armored butt repeatedly.

That said, I was never totally in love with the aggro system of Warcraft, even though I could understand and, as a previous poster said, predict it. Warcraft had it's own issues with the aggro mathematics creating bizarre situations, too, like the single guy I'm slashing at breaking off to turn his back on me and attack a Mage.

This is helping me, though. I don't want this to fall off just yet as I think there is more information on this out there that could help all of us who want to be the best meatshields we can be.

Oh, that reminds me, shields don't seem to add much armor so I wear mine for the health bonus more than anything. Are they critical to damage mitigation? I've got to be missing something about them.

Wyrmdog · Nov 09, 2005, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by striderkaaru

in this respect, i actually feel like gw has an extra layer of combat rather than missing it. do you have any idea how incredibly boring a warrior's job would be if he could simply reclaim lost aggro at the touch of a button (taunt skill)? with that system, the casters don't have anything to worry about at all because they know aggro can be reclaimed easily.

I can see what you're saying, but it isn't actually that simple as taunts are not actual aggro generators, rather a temporary lock. If you don't re-establish aggro in the small window provided by Taunt, the monster goes right back to the caster. Add in cooldowns, Rage (similar to Adrenaline) requirements and so on, and it becomes a really fun asset dance, surprisingly. I suppose you'd have to try it. If you have and didn't like it, that's a different issue, eh?

I quite enjoy the job of a Warrior there and just want to find similar enjoyment here, by figuring out what makes aggro tick in this game. I'm seeing it's completely different and that makes it even more important for me to figure it out.

In a way, it's almost more that GW has exchanged the aggro mechanic of Warcraft for one of its own devising. I'm glad for that. I wouldn't want it to be the same. Still, there are mechanics governing it that are worth understanding.

Epinephrine · Nov 09, 2005, 09:45 PM // 21:45

One interesting thing is the HUGE preference creatures have for the target with DP. A neat solution to this is to die as a tank at the beginning of a mission - just let yourself die - arrange it with the monks. This makes you SO much tastier to enemies. Now they'll slaver at your -15% smell, and run straight for you! It might seem odd, but it does work.

Wyrmdog · Nov 09, 2005, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

One interesting thing is the HUGE preference creatures have for the target with DP. A neat solution to this is to die as a tank at the beginning of a mission - just let yourself die - arrange it with the monks. This makes you SO much tastier to enemies. Now they'll slaver at your -15% smell, and run straight for you! It might seem odd, but it does work.

Are you serious? That's just sick. The programmers are just cruel!

I like it.

Is it a safe assumption that, all other things being equal, monsters will attack the softest target they can find? Granted, -15% on a Warrior isn't exactly soft, but you get the idea.

Wyrmdog · Nov 09, 2005, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

If you looking for the attack me button, it's called a Torch, Gear, Unholy Text, or any other item that you can pick up.

But if you want to actually get a sense of strategy I would advise against using one of these 'tricks'. Fortunately you'll find these items in all of the challenging points in the game (FoW, SF, Thunderhead Keep) so actually developing teamwork skills is almost entirely unessential in PvE anymore.

Haha, I'm getting visions of people carting around a crate of apples (yeah, my frame of reference is still mostly Pre...sorry) that they drop whenever they get in a fight, and pick back up when the Charr heads for the Monk. Seems...silly.

Do those items serve any other purpose in the game besides aggro generation?

Racthoh · Nov 09, 2005, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Ah, well yes they do serve a purpose (torch used for bonus in a mission, book as a quest reward, and gears for opening doors), but this other use for them is annoying when you're actually looking for a challenge.

Whether it's something programming into the game that mobs attack targets that are unarmed and move slowly (which is what happens when you hold on of these objects), I do wish Anet would change this.

Elsydian · Nov 09, 2005, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by striderkaaru

in this respect, i actually feel like gw has an extra layer of combat rather than missing it. do you have any idea how incredibly boring a warrior's job would be if he could simply reclaim lost aggro at the touch of a button (taunt skill)? with that system, the casters don't have anything to worry about at all because they know aggro can be reclaimed easily.

with the current system, the whole party has to know what to do. an elem under attack has to know that he can't continue casting his 4 sec cast time spell when he has enemies pounding on him. at that point, it's not about what a warrior can do reliably but the rest of the party knowing when and how to run. it's the whole party's responsibility.

it also adds a sense of realism when pve enemies switch targets based on who they think is easier to take down. being able to count on them acting a certain way or affecting their actions with some skill just dulls the game down.

Good points, and I agree that it wouldn't be fun if aggro management was that easy. It seems to me though that there isn't much aggro control in GW (for better or worse). As Wyrmdog points out in response to your comments aggro management in WoW isn't just a push of a button, it's a new layer of strategy that has to be incorporated into the way you play, regardless of your class. It seems that people coming from WoW are best to notice this about GW because whereas there was aggro management tools before, there doesn't appear to be any system for it in GW.

NatalieD · Nov 10, 2005, 12:12 AM // 00:12

You can still manage aggro in GW, but it's a matter of positioning and movement, rather than explicit skill usage like in WoW.

IMO, both approaches have their advantages. Holding aggro in WoW is like a little minigame unto itself, and it can be pretty fun. But it's also kind of lame that it doesn't make any difference where people are standing, and enemies can just run straight through a warrior to get at the caster behind him. When I play as a monk in GW, I can often shed unwanted aggro by circling around to get a warrior in between me and the enemies, and I kinda like that.

Wyrmdog · Nov 10, 2005, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatalieD

You can still manage aggro in GW, but it's a matter of positioning and movement, rather than explicit skill usage like in WoW.

IMO, both approaches have their advantages. Holding aggro in WoW is like a little minigame unto itself, and it can be pretty fun. But it's also kind of lame that it doesn't make any difference where people are standing, and enemies can just run straight through a warrior to get at the caster behind him. When I play as a monk in GW, I can often shed unwanted aggro by circling around to get a warrior in between me and the enemies, and I kinda like that.

Absolutely. I like that positioning makes a difference, I just need to understand the hows and whys of it. I mean, is it as simple as portraying yourself as the juiciest obstacle you can? Surely there's more to it.

But since I have your temporary attention, is that method reliable? What can I, as a tank, do to help keep aggro off of you?

Oh, and BTW, you're not the NatalieD from RPGNet are you?