Curse

Hippie Bane · May 10, 2006, 08:43 AM // 08:43

Wow, you certainly are brave for coming in here and saying what you said. I salute you for that and for holding Cavalon for as long as you have. Last I saw, it was circa 4 million faction to take it away.

Therein lies my problem with all of this. My guild has maybe 30 people, 15-20 of which are active(play more than once a week) and spread across the US, Canada and Australia(aka multiple time zones). Our alliance may triple that number, at the most. I like being in a smaller guild. I like knowing all the people I come in contact with and being able to trust them. I like knowing that we can take 4-5 people to UW or FOW with no 55 or other "gimmick" builds and have no problems at all. Our small guild of relatively casual players takes Halls on a regular basis. But, short of disbanding and joining a huge congolmerate, there is no way we will ever be able to unseat you. Since Factions went live, we have accumulated less than a tenth of what your alliance has accumulated in faction. I suspect we have far less people. Despite what you assert above, there is nothing "elite" about having hundreds of people farming faction all day, which is essentially what the current system is. I at least have a chance to go take Halls, and then go to UW in Tyria. I have zero chance to see the extra content unless I say goodbye to my friends and become just another faction grinding cog in the machine of which you are lucky enough to be a part. So, if you came here looking for friends, I am sorry, but most of us are a tad angry about the current situation, and rightly so I beleive.

Not signed.

Vaga · May 10, 2006, 09:00 AM // 09:00

I think there is a misconception that the alliances that hold the capital cities have a thousand people farming all the time. It's not the case at all, normally there are one or two groups farming at peak hours, and these groups do it because they have fun trying to beat the high-scores and what not.

To the poster above, you have 20 people in your guild. It is easy to get 10k faction a day, your alliance could hold a town with ease.

The only other problem I have with the way the system works apart from what I posted previously, is that there is no viable way to get good faction without doing PvE activities. You get none for GvG, and a little amount for alliance battles considering the time they take.

VorianVader · May 10, 2006, 09:18 AM // 09:18

Either way, the flawed system of favour was better in the case of the UW and FoW in prophecies. It didnt take skill on your part to get into these high level areas if you had favour, it did require skill to survive and actually do something in there.

What is happening here is, you simply cannot get in irrespective of the skill that you have. Why? because you are not part of a large alliance which can accumulate the required faction based on its numbers which you simply cannot match. Whether it accumulates faction as zerg farming or some other method is immaterial......the constant is the sheer number of people in the alliance.

Therefore the new Guild Wars formulas are: Farming better than Skill anyday and casual players with a real world life (read - adults with jobs, not kids who go to school) have no place in this game.

Judging by the reactions I have seen on Guru and Gwonline, a lot of people are angry over this issue which, doing a rough calculation translates to approximately 80%. The really happy ones are the 1% who control the towns. So I dont know if Areanet wants chapter 3 to sell very well. I dont know about the 80% but seeing the trends that I am seeing coming into the game I used to love; I am definitely out after this!!!

Vaga · May 10, 2006, 09:49 AM // 09:49

They already have two dungeons that rely on favour theres no need for anymore.

Aërendil · May 10, 2006, 09:55 AM // 09:55

just wait and see what will come. This is made to make alliances more populair, but it's at a cost. BUT i just want to get in that mission whenever i like. The funny thing with uw and fow was that you often had favour during normal hours. BUT now you have to get the 'favour' with your alliance, while others are doing the same thing. I will probally never enter these areas because i'm in a guild with a small crew that doesn't want to expand and has not made any alliance with any guild yet.

SO i 100% agree with Hippie Bane. This sytem is so flawed.

yuna of spira · May 10, 2006, 10:21 AM // 10:21

What I think many are overlooking is that this was supposed to be the rewards program for PvE Alliance stuff. PvP has rewards with the ladder and observer mode, and most of all: playoffs. As a person who plays in top 100 guilds sometimes nearing the playoffs, but never getting there, i see the same frustration in me with the playoffs as in people who want to do these elite missions. Most of the teams that get into the playoffs each season are the same ones that got in last season.....I'm not saying anything needs to be changed, but you cant have everything. I will probably never be able to compete in a playoff battle, but you cant satisfy everyone. Anet was bugged a lot by players wanting it to have very high level elite items that were extremely rare. I think they have done this. The only thing I might change that I dont see yet is control on max faction, as people in this post have mentioned already....it makes it so catching up is near impossible if the faction never resets. Reset it like PvP does and fuel the desire for alliances to continue to go for faction, otherwise people will stop getting faction real soon when its apparent they will never have a chance to own cavalon or heltzer.
BTW: personally I have tried an elite mission and I think they are terrible. Its fine for one time through, but there are no quests, theres no room to just wander, and you cant chest run. To do anything worthwhile it takes like 4 hours to do and its all for items that in a couple weeks will be bought pretty easily because these gigantic alliances have so many people farming them...so theres not much to miss.

yuna of spira · May 10, 2006, 10:21 AM // 10:21

goddamn double post.....my forum noobness ftw

Sidra · May 10, 2006, 10:37 AM // 10:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanis the Omnipotent

I definetly like the way the OP started this thread. Unlike some of the other people in the thread that exists in Sardelac, who /notsign and make some egotistical and downright arrogant response to the arguments. I have my own reasons for why I think the Elite Missions are set up wrong. But I also have my own suggestions as to how to still make them hard to access, but eventually accessible to everyone.

My list of possible suggestions other than Alliance Control over towns for access.

Requirements for Elite Mission suggestions:

1. Titles
a. Tyrian Map Completed - Title Earned
b. Canthan Map Completed - Title Earned (Anet would have to allow Tyrian characters access to the island missions.
c. All Tyrian Missions Completed Fully.
d. Rank 3's in all Canthan Missions
e. 4 other Titles earned.

The idea of needing Titles earned shows that you have put alot of time into your characters, doing everything you can to be as good as you can be.

2. Elites and skills
a. You must have all Elites for your primary class captured. And one full set for a secondary class. Elite Skills must be earned through Signets of Capture.
b. You must have all skills for your primary and secondary class learned.

This places importance on being prepared for whatever situation your team finds yourself in, and being able to change your build for your team. Also the restriction of Capture Signets makes sure that the person didnt just faction farm in the Random Arena and unlock everything.

3. Character has completed all Underworld and Fissure of Woe Quests once.

Anet would need to make some sort of tracking system for this. To show how many of these quests you have completed. As these two places are the two harder areas of the game besides Elite missions to actually go through and complete fully (not just farming), completing the quests in them would show an understanding of teamwork. I would also expand this one to include any other Realms that are introduced later.

4. Character needs X ammount of Experience.

A very high number, one well beyond the minimum you would get by simply doing all the quests and missions in Tyria and Cantha.

Now as for my personal reasoning as to why control of a town is not a proper way of doing this.

Right now, gaining faction for control is..well easy. Like so many other people have stated, its not hard to recruit people and guilds, make an alliance, get together and faction farm your ass off. Infact, Faction is so easy to get that the faction to control a town is getting higher and higher by the day. So high that no smaller guild will ever be able to do it. 12vs12 is pretty much to blame. The faction you gain in it, just like in the FPE is the basis of all K/L Faction in the game. Everyone can do it, and so often that its easy to get.

It requires no skill to go into a 12 vs 12 match and fight in Gang Raping size mobs to defeat each other. No teamwork is needed, not even now in the 4-4-4vs4-4-4 style of doing things. And there in lies the problem.

Getting Faction requires no skill. So how is Faction Farming to a high ammount proving that you are Elite and deserve acccess to these missions. Its no basis of judgement. I am not saying that everyone should be openly allowed access to the missions.

You need to prove you are worthy of entering them. I also believe that you should only be allowed to enter the missions with people from your own alliance, so PUGs will never show up there.

But Faction Farming is no way of showing you are Elite, since everyone can do it. And its not difficult at all to faction farm. So how is that elite?

ok in idea but brought about wrong. WHY THIS IS WRONG:

1. Tyrian missions? Why? This is a stand-alone-game, and the devs will keep it that way.

2. Who cares about the titles. Maybe rank 3 is needed in all missions, but those other things are useless.

3. Elite skills. Very time consuming, and not at all rewarding. Why would anybody need that? You are basing it like a time > skill thing. Which is completely wrong.

4. Experience requirnment: definetely not. Elite missions shouold be accessable throughout all characters on the GW player's account if they belong to the alliance. Not going to work well at all.

ALSO: many people, myself included, do not like the underworld or fissure at all. I myself have never spent any time there. I just don't enjoy it. Does that make me too "nooby" for the elite missions? hmm...

Aërendil · May 10, 2006, 10:41 AM // 10:41

you do make a point, but i don;t want to be restricted for this game. You say aNet wants to make ultra rare items? Well that's the reason why i hate greenies they aren't rare or exclusive everyone has them and they are good (most of the times).

But still i feel exluded, i want to take the challenge even if it were for one time...

Jagflame · May 10, 2006, 11:53 AM // 11:53

Quote:

hypothetically, a player may be skilled enough to solo Shiro and the Lich at the same time(), but if he's not in a large guild, in a large alliance, and willing to farm faction, then by ANet's definition, he's not "elite"...

So I suppose that player is going to do the Elite Missions all by himself? Winning the Elite Missions is won by a group accomplishment, and if they change the way to get it I would be very displeased if it were not aimed torward alliances. Mainly just because of what the OP said: it gives the alliance something to work for and an altogether sense of community.

Gli · May 10, 2006, 12:29 PM // 12:29

It's great that some people found a sense of community in a silly little computer game over the internet. Some people, myself included, couldn't care less about a sense of community in our games. I already have a real life family and a circle of friends who make up my guild, many of whom I've gamed with for years and years and years. We just want to play the game without having to enroll in some kind of virtual kibbutz. We've talked about Factions for a bit since its release, and probably won't even be around here anymore by the time chapter 3 hits. We'll move on to a game that doesn't alienate a certain class of people by design.

fb2000 · May 10, 2006, 12:32 PM // 12:32

I still have trouble getting you guys...

you dont want to farm for the reward, but you want the reward.. if anet made it all-access, it wouldnt be a reward would it?

since when was a lousy mission that important? sorry, but youre making too big a deal out of this. its the same thing as say FOW armor - > you can DO without it, yet some ppl dont mind working hard to get it (some buy it off ebay, but its another thing). its just people always tend to feel their rights have been "nerfed". ive heard people whine about how hard it is to get 15k kurzick, ive heard bitching at Anet, becoz they changed some stat on a shield, and their ultra-expensive shield is now with 10hps less..

i dont really see how missing on the elite is that bad. plus, you can always get dragged there, if you would stop flaming the guys in the alliance (im only a second day in XoO and im getting severely tired of received flames/whining all the time) and be friendly for a change. a major problem with this, constantly filling the alliance chat, is that once invited, people tend to stay in the Urgoz Warren lobby, which is ok as an idea, but they just wouldnt miss out on bitching and cursing at us..

and all that for a mission that goes like : KILL URGOZ..

IS IT WORTH IT?

Medion · May 10, 2006, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Quote:

you dont want to farm for the reward, but you want the reward.. if anet made it all-access, it wouldnt be a reward would it?

You see, you said farm there, and people don't want to farm. I personally don't really have a problem in not getting access there 24/7, but I would like to try it once or twice. Just to see what it's like as I have done with all the other stuff. For this to happen, I am not willing to farm, not farm faction nor titles or experience (as someone else suggested).
What I would do is let the non-holding people enter, but first need to proof themselves by beating some mobs the holding alliance doesn't need to beat.

I do have to agree with you that holding alliance shouldn't be flamed or anything, lets face it; they are the best at how Anet created the game. That doesn't mean I agree with Anet's design though

.

But I have enough joy in doing both PvE and PvP, so I am happy without the Elite Missions. I can only hope that this content will be made more accesable later on.

striderkaaru · May 10, 2006, 01:51 PM // 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeanHeartstone

As far as farming bots are concerned, you may need them to beat us. We're just that good. :P Seriously though the game has only just come out. I wouldn't say no one will catch us just yet.

that good at farming faction. it's still time > skill.

a very good suggestion was made before, and i believe that it was actually made by someone from your alliance (i applaud him for the idea and for not being elitist). a challenge mission should be implemented right before the elite mission. the alliance of the guild holding the record for the challenge mission should control the town. then, it would truly be skill > time. a small alliance of very skilled players can control a town, and even a maxed out alliance with 1000 mediocre players grinding all day will never be able to cap the town if they don't beat the record.

in order to keep control dynamic, it should be based on the weekly or monthly record. that way, an alliance will need to prove that they can hold it consistently and that it wasn't just luck. this will also give others a chance should the holding alliance become inactive.

that's how the elite missions should be held.

SirShadowrunner · May 10, 2006, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by fb2000

i dont really see how missing on the elite is that bad. plus, you can always get dragged there, if you would stop flaming the guys in the alliance (im only a second day in XoO and im getting severely tired of received flames/whining all the time) and be friendly for a change. a major problem with this, constantly filling the alliance chat, is that once invited, people tend to stay in the Urgoz Warren lobby, which is ok as an idea, but they just wouldnt miss out on bitching and cursing at us..

So your the ones, grrrrr.... , j/k ppl should not be flaming anyone for this,
we did not design the game, let it roll off the shoulder.
One problem is guilds and ppl are going to just quit to join the strong,
we have had one guild do that already, and I am sure it is going to keep
happening. This is not a good way to build a strong healthy alliance, from
what I hear in-game, is unless you are in a 1000 member Alliance you
might as well forget controlling anything, and as far as trying to get an
"invite" there, just how is one suppose to go about that, stand around
trying to find someone in the Alliance ????? you are kidding right???

Well I am not to worried about it, I have alot of things I want to do
and checkout to keep myself busy, it is only when something likes this
stands in my from completing something that I would get really mad
and that doesn't appear to be the case yet.....

bushe · May 10, 2006, 04:29 PM // 16:29

I am a working dad with a 4 month old baby and am not currently in a guild, so I will probably never see the inside of these "elite" missions and honestly it doesn't bother me at all. The people in the goliath guilds that own the capitals have worked hard for the privledge of enjoying the content that the missions provide and I think they deserve it. I can understand people being angry because they feel the system is exclusionary, but it isn't a necessary part of the game it is just a bonus. The one problem I do have with the missions is the name elite, they should be called bonus missions or special missions because calling them elite is more exclusionary than limiting the entrance in my view. But that is an aside, my real point is just that people shouldn't be so upset about it as all it is is a reward for those who can attain a certain level of some comodity. I'll probably never win an olympic medal or nobel prize either but I sure as heck don't want them to go away and if everyone had one then they really aren't worth winning. I say keep the missions the way they are but change the name.

remmeh · May 10, 2006, 04:37 PM // 16:37

sure you don't see a problem with it, because you're the one reaping the rewards in the first place. here's a stepstool to get off that pedestal you're on.

Medion · May 10, 2006, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Or are we making problems because we aren't reaping the rewards?

You can look at it from both sides, but not one person will be truly objective I think.

Stockholm · May 10, 2006, 04:50 PM // 16:50

First of all you are not Elit because you farm quicker than anyone else, then the Chines Bot's would be the one's holding all towns, they are the Elit Farmers. A-net are trying to stop farming as much as possible in GWP and promoting it in GWF, is no one else seeing the absurdety in this?

Open the "elite Missions" to all players that have beaten all missions with a Masters, when you do that then you should have a shoot at trying Elit

fb2000 · May 10, 2006, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by bushe

I am a working dad with a 4 month old baby and am not currently in a guild, so I will probably never see the inside of these "elite" missions and honestly it doesn't bother me at all. The people in the goliath guilds that own the capitals have worked hard for the privledge of enjoying the content that the missions provide and I think they deserve it. I can understand people being angry because they feel the system is exclusionary, but it isn't a necessary part of the game it is just a bonus. The one problem I do have with the missions is the name elite, they should be called bonus missions or special missions because calling them elite is more exclusionary than limiting the entrance in my view. But that is an aside, my real point is just that people shouldn't be so upset about it as all it is is a reward for those who can attain a certain level of some comodity. I'll probably never win an olympic medal or nobel prize either but I sure as heck don't want them to go away and if everyone had one then they really aren't worth winning. I say keep the missions the way they are but change the name.

very nicely put, respect for u

Quote:

Originally Posted by striderkaaru

a very good suggestion was made before, and i believe that it was actually made by someone from your alliance (i applaud him for the idea and for not being elitist). a challenge mission should be implemented right before the elite mission. the alliance of the guild holding the record for the challenge mission should control the town. then, it would truly be skill > time. a small alliance of very skilled players can control a town, and even a maxed out alliance with 1000 mediocre players grinding all day will never be able to cap the town if they don't beat the record.

you do see that that will even FURTHER reduce the number of players that can enter the mission, dont you?

Quote:

and as far as trying to get an
"invite" there, just how is one suppose to go about that, stand around
trying to find someone in the Alliance ????? you are kidding right???

worked out fine for me tbh... then I decided I might as well try to join XoO, as to me they were the nicest people ive met online in gw yet.

Quote:

First of all you are not Elit because you farm quicker than anyone else

so people in the holding alliance get flamed coz anet picked a name Elite mission? well, we can force them change it to Shit Mission, would that fix your concerns?

anyway, this is really an endless dispute.. i was thinking of documenting something of the mission (such as the story behind it, some info on groups and so on), will make a seperate thread soon, if you think thats a good idea.