Curse

SeanHeartstone · May 09, 2006, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Greetings,

Now as a member of the alliance currently controlling Cavalon I felt that it would good for the community to know how we(or maybe just I

) feel about Elite Missions and the related Alliance/Faction components. Well, first of all I want you all to know that prior to factions I was never in a guild of any comparable size or importance. So, for me, much of the sense of community gained by being in a guild as cool as Luna has been quite refreshing for my outlook on Guild Wars. There is a constant feeling of people being there to help you whether it's with completing missions, finding items, selling items, doing GvG or PvP, figuring out what to eat when it's 2 AM, etc. And now, with alliances, I feel like that community has just increased exponentially. Although I probably don't feel close to EVERYONE in the alliance as maybe a smaller guild would feel, I still love the atmosphere of hundreds of people joining together for a common cause. I feel that in the last few weeks I've formed a great sense of community in my guild and I honestly feel that much of what has fostered this feeling has been the existence of factions along with the reward of getting the elite mission. Because, let's face it, there is little chance of a community forming in a guild/alliance without there being a reward for it. Why would there ever be competition to farm more factions without there being a sweet reward at the end? And honestly it was one of the coolest moments in gaming for me, as I'm sure it was for many others of us in the guild, when we captured Cavalon. It was such a joyous feeling to know that you're group of people was number one. Also, the atmosphere of politicing with other guilds adds a new dimension to the game which I think is quite fulfilling.

Now I will try to respond more or less directly to a few of the concerns about the game. One common one I see is 'I spent $50 dollars on this game I expect to get my full price.' Now firstly, honestly I spent $50 dollars on the game and feel that my money has been well rewarded for my effort. The alliance/elite atmosphere has added much to my game. And I'm quite sure this is true for everyone who has benefited from either being in the alliance that controls the elite mission but also for those guilds/alliances which have built a greater sense of community as a result of the competition. Well this certainly isn't true for everyone I don't think it's the responsibility of a game maker to make sure that everyone who buys a game fully enjoys every aspect of the game. For example, even though I'm mostly a PvE player I don't feel bad about buying the game even though there is a big emphasis on PvP. Secondly, I sincerely doubt that if one were to do everything in factions except the elite mission that you couldn't easily find 100s of hours of fully enjoyable things to do. I mean the simple fact that you only have to pay $50 once for the game should make it worthwhile just by itself.

Another concern, which I think has more weight, is that winning the elite missions has more to do with time spent farming vs. skill. Thus, the argument goes, it has gone against Anet's basic philosophy of valuing skill over time spent farming. Now really I think this is basically true. Really, the only way an alliance is going to win the cities is by farming consistently. But, why should there be anything wrong with that? I mean, when wasn't there a huge aspect of farming to this game already? (As a side note I love how Anet inserts "runs" hidden into so many different parts of the game. I remember first farming drake runs in Kryta and thinking that it was a great idea by the developers to put it there, hidden away.) And now the farming is not about "I want to get the 15^50, 10/10, +30 axe, or FoW Armor" but "I want to get faction so our guild can win access to the Elite Mission." In my view the second sort of farming is far more rewarding at a personal level because it fits in with a sense of community. And another response is, quite simply, that if you want to play solely on the basis of skill go do PvP. Honestly, I think ANet has done a great job in Guild Wars of working to satisfy everyone.

Now I'm sure there are a few responses to everything I've said here and I welcome those comments. Also, if there are any good arguments I haven't covered point them out to me and I will do my best to answer them later.

Sean Heartstone

pegasux · May 09, 2006, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Sean,
I am not part of your alliance like most and would like access BUT it is unfair IMO for eveyone to just have free access. I congratulate your alliance on your accomplishment and only wish my guild would join an alliance so I would have a shot at getting in. I do think that it is unwise of ANET to just lock in the Faction points on a permanent basis though to get control. For an alliance to catch you guys they would have to resort to farm bots...lol.
I think that a fair thing would be for that points to reset once a week, this essentially would allow alliances to farm like mad every friday or saturday or whatever day that ANET chooses. Guilds will quickly find out just how strong of an alliance they have on this day by their faction points gained. Once again congrats to you guys and for everyone else...don't blame them blame ANET. They are simply following the rules.

As a side note I would not be surprised if ANET opened up a new realm much like Fow or UW this summer to quite everyone down...but this time I hope they make the entrance fee and requirement to get in much higher. Say beat the game with 3 swords and pay 5k for entrance.

Kaguya · May 09, 2006, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeanHeartstone

And now the farming is not about "I want to get the 15^50, 10/10, +30 axe, or FoW Armor" but "I want to get faction so our guild can win access to the Elite Mission." In my view the second sort of farming is far more rewarding at a personal level because it fits in with a sense of community.

I didn't like farming for my own good before, and I'm not liking it much more doing it for 'common' good. From my point of view, farming = work, you repeat the same boring routine on same boring area, usually alone. I play games to get rid of whatever stress I got from work, not to get more of it from 'working' in a game.

Guess that makes me kinda 'wierd', especially seeing the 'pro-farming' mentality most of community seems to have. One of the 'cool' things to me about GW originally was that I don't need to spend hours of farming getting the 'ubar top gear', I could just play the game "normally" and usually earned enough gold from the normal play to afford pretty much everything needed.

Thus, I'm in favor of 'skill' required to handle the Elite missions rather than 'zerg alliance farming'. But I think the Elite missions have been talked through in various threads already, so enough of that

pbspectre · May 09, 2006, 08:38 PM // 20:38

personally, i don't blame the alliances who hold the towns, i blame the dev's who created the system in the first place...i guess the thing that irks me the most about it is the fact that this system makes it seem like, if you're not part of a huge alliance that farms faction constantly, then you're not "elite" enough to enter the "elite" missions...hypothetically, a player may be skilled enough to solo Shiro and the Lich at the same time(

), but if he's not in a large guild, in a large alliance, and willing to farm faction, then by ANet's definition, he's not "elite"...

from the start, ANet has maintained that the game is about skill, not time spent playing...as a whole, it doesn't take real skill to farm, as the entire nature of farming is to get the maximum reward for the smallest amount of time and effort...

Banebow · May 09, 2006, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Now, not to be rude, but of course you don't see a problem with the system. Most (not all) Americans saw no problems with the favor system while America had favor all the time, but once Europe started getting it all the time we started complaining. The system never seems wrong to those in a position to receive the rewards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeanHeartstone

And another response is, quite simply, that if you want to play solely on the basis of skill go do PvP.

When did it become PvE = farming and PvP = skill. That is what this setup is right now, until you have access to the elite mission, at which point you need to be half-way decent to get through (I assume, I have not been in one yet). Farming for fissure armor was not much of a problem, after all, serious PvE players never had to get it to enjoy the full game. No farming was needed at all in fact, they could happily play any mission they chose, do any quest they wanted. Now, a serious PvE player is expected to meet some faction quota from the alliance he is in so that he can enjoy part of the game. And not just any part, the two supposedly hardest missions in factions. A favor of the gods system by any other name is still a favor of the gods system, and that is what this is. Unlike HoH however, the option of grabbing 8 people and going to win favor for your country is not even close to a remote possibility, and the number of people with access at any given time is approximately 1/100th (or less) of the people with access from favor.

You're right though. We should lock out 99.9% of the player base from these missions at all times, and force farming on the players with access. It is an ideal setup.

SeanHeartstone · May 09, 2006, 10:29 PM // 22:29

pegasux, thank you for the comment. I recently looked at it this way: what if ANet removed the elite missions and just added a new one to the end of the story (maybe "end-game" mission). It would still be a cool mission and awesome to get zodiacs, but you would lose so much of the communities that have been built up because of the competition to get to the top.

As far as farming bots are concerned, you may need them to beat us. We're just that good. :P Seriously though the game has only just come out. I wouldn't say no one will catch us just yet.

Kaguya, you say that normal play will get uber gear, but I don't think that's ever been entirely true for Guild Wars. It takes quite a lot of money to get a sup abs. and/or sup vigor which I don't think is anywhere comparable to the amount of money you get for just completing the quests/missions. Also, having been one of the group that recently beat the deep (omg so hard), I can tell you flat out that we didn't get any weapons which are better damage dealers/etc. They just look much, much cooler.

pbspectre, you say that you feel like ANet says that those who do the elite missions are "elite." And, from my perspective, I think that, at the very least, the leaders of our alliance are elite just as much, if not more so, then someone who can beat HoH, win GvG, solo Shiro (whatever that is supposed to mean). Quite a lot of what it took, from my perspective, for us to get as much faction as we have was in terms of building/leading and not just farming 8hrs a day. I'm also certain that there are people/guilds in our group who didn't contribute to the faction and just lucked out to be in a guild with others who did (as is now abudantly clear with the new update showing how much each guild is contributing). The feeling among our group is that you may be able to beat HoH, and that is pretty elite but to be a part of our elite missions you need to contribute. So what I guess I'm saying is that we can all be elite in our own way.

Phrozenflame · May 09, 2006, 11:01 PM // 23:01

The current system is fit and fine.

/Signed.

SeanHeartstone · May 09, 2006, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Banebow, I don't appreciate ad hominem attacks and politely ask that you refrain from them. Critique the argument and not me.

You raise a good point about only ~0.1% of the game getting access to the elite missions. I admit that this is a harm. A certain amount of people would be better off if they were accessible. But I think to focus on this is too short sighted a response. Consider what I was talking about before concerning community. Let's face it, the fact that the alliance system is doing so well is very much dependent on the existence of the elite missions. "Ooo we won Cavalon, let's set off 5K fireworks." If that's all there was, no one would be compelled to do many of the things which are going on now. I know in our alliance there is a huge push to help people do things in all aspects of the game: alliance battles, mission completion, selling/trading items, etc. And I honestly think that the system being the way it is comes from having this competition to be the best. So the view that only 0.1% of the community is benefited by this seems woefully shortsighted to me.

Antheus · May 09, 2006, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by pegasux

As a side note I would not be surprised if ANET opened up a new realm much like Fow or UW this summer to quite everyone down...but this time I hope they make the entrance fee and requirement to get in much higher. Say beat the game with 3 swords and pay 5k for entrance.

This is the same. In this way you again penalize non-farmers who cannot afford 5k gold and do not have the time/opportunity to complete entire game with 3 swords. It's just that you happen to like these restrictions better.

Just because this may seem easier, it's inaccesible for even more players. With elite missions you just get an invite. If you're required to beat the game in a certain manner, you exclude even more people. And beating the game is character based, which means it would take a very long time to get appropriate classes into such missions. It's considerably more restrictive.

Katari · May 09, 2006, 11:35 PM // 23:35

How many people have to belong to the guild that holds the town for a team to enter an alliance mission?

Banebow · May 10, 2006, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeanHeartstone

Banebow, I don't appreciate ad hominem attacks and politely ask that you refrain from them. Critique the argument and not me.

My apologies. Am I correct when I say that the argument is that many players benefit from having a goal to work towards (ie, access to an elite mission)?

Lets look at a few numbers, assuming a total player base of 1,000,000 (one million) players.

2,000 players have access to an elite mission at any given time, or ([2,000/1,000,000]*100) 0.2% of the player base.

There are about 10 controllable towns (counting the capital) on each side, so we have 20,000 players who think they have a chance at getting access to an elite mission and so pursue this goal. Lets quadruple that number to account for "unseen" alliances which are close to getting their first town but don't have it yet, so 80,000. That is ([80,000/1,000,000]*100) 8% of the player base.

So, we have:
0.2% of the player base gets a physical benefit from the current elite mission system.
8% gain an intrinsic benefit from the current elite mission system.

Now, these numbers are not totally accurate. ANet announced the one million purchased copies of guild wars many months ago, so we can say with fair certainty that at least 1 million people play, possibly more. Not all of the alliances in control of a town, or getting close to the control of a town, will have a full 1,000 members either.

So, the setup of having elite mission access based on capital control benefits 8% of the player base. The cost is the 65% of the player base who want to do the missions and can't. (assuming some people don't want to do the missions).

Making elite missions accessible by anyone does not have to take away the drive to control the capital. An example would be, what if it costs 1k to enter the elite mission, but the proceeds go to the controlling alliance rather than vanish? That is going to drive plenty of people to control the capital, while not punishing the players who don't control the capital.

khronic · May 10, 2006, 12:40 AM // 00:40

hmm.. i'm liking the idea of a faction reset once a week or so.. tell me.. how is an alliance with 1 guild setting at 70k faction, and the other at 9k, supposed to catch up to alliances and guilds with millions of faction if they never reset? not very likely eh? there needs to be an entrance like FoW or UW, but you pay in faction to get in. but the entrance needs to be available all the time. as for the weapons, whooptie-doo! i'm happy with my req 10 broadsword and crimson carapace shield. so when you want to be nice and let everyone participate in the so called "elite" missions, let us know.. the only reason that you have control over a town, is because you farm.. you faction farm. i don't see how it's possible to only do missions and have enough faction to control somewhere, without farming.. you're elite because you farm? i think not. i'm not saying YOU aren't elite, i'm saying that access to elite missions is kind of stupid, when anyone can farm faction

Sidra · May 10, 2006, 02:21 AM // 02:21

I met a few people from your alliance while doing Nahpui Quarter and some other quests. They seemed very nice and one asked me to join his guild, actually, but I declined. I'd happily do it, but I like my small guild too much. The only thing I have to say here is that I think elite missions should be available to ANYONE who owns ANY town, not just House zu Heltzer or Cavalon.

llsektorll · May 10, 2006, 03:01 AM // 03:01

well..... coming as a pvp player... i should just /shrug.. it is annoying how pve players have had HUGE favors for the game in their side.. when this was a pvp game to begin with.

I herd something about if you go into a party with someone from a guild who has access to it... you can enter the area and enter it by yourself later on... any truth to this? I just wish if we could GvG to take control of towns .... =/

Arcanis the Omnipotent · May 10, 2006, 04:22 AM // 04:22

I definetly like the way the OP started this thread. Unlike some of the other people in the thread that exists in Sardelac, who /notsign and make some egotistical and downright arrogant response to the arguments. I have my own reasons for why I think the Elite Missions are set up wrong. But I also have my own suggestions as to how to still make them hard to access, but eventually accessible to everyone.

My list of possible suggestions other than Alliance Control over towns for access.

Requirements for Elite Mission suggestions:

1. Titles
a. Tyrian Map Completed - Title Earned
b. Canthan Map Completed - Title Earned (Anet would have to allow Tyrian characters access to the island missions.
c. All Tyrian Missions Completed Fully.
d. Rank 3's in all Canthan Missions
e. 4 other Titles earned.

The idea of needing Titles earned shows that you have put alot of time into your characters, doing everything you can to be as good as you can be.

2. Elites and skills
a. You must have all Elites for your primary class captured. And one full set for a secondary class. Elite Skills must be earned through Signets of Capture.
b. You must have all skills for your primary and secondary class learned.

This places importance on being prepared for whatever situation your team finds yourself in, and being able to change your build for your team. Also the restriction of Capture Signets makes sure that the person didnt just faction farm in the Random Arena and unlock everything.

3. Character has completed all Underworld and Fissure of Woe Quests once.

Anet would need to make some sort of tracking system for this. To show how many of these quests you have completed. As these two places are the two harder areas of the game besides Elite missions to actually go through and complete fully (not just farming), completing the quests in them would show an understanding of teamwork. I would also expand this one to include any other Realms that are introduced later.

4. Character needs X ammount of Experience.

A very high number, one well beyond the minimum you would get by simply doing all the quests and missions in Tyria and Cantha.

Now as for my personal reasoning as to why control of a town is not a proper way of doing this.

Right now, gaining faction for control is..well easy. Like so many other people have stated, its not hard to recruit people and guilds, make an alliance, get together and faction farm your ass off. Infact, Faction is so easy to get that the faction to control a town is getting higher and higher by the day. So high that no smaller guild will ever be able to do it. 12vs12 is pretty much to blame. The faction you gain in it, just like in the FPE is the basis of all K/L Faction in the game. Everyone can do it, and so often that its easy to get.

It requires no skill to go into a 12 vs 12 match and fight in Gang Raping size mobs to defeat each other. No teamwork is needed, not even now in the 4-4-4vs4-4-4 style of doing things. And there in lies the problem.

Getting Faction requires no skill. So how is Faction Farming to a high ammount proving that you are Elite and deserve acccess to these missions. Its no basis of judgement. I am not saying that everyone should be openly allowed access to the missions.

You need to prove you are worthy of entering them. I also believe that you should only be allowed to enter the missions with people from your own alliance, so PUGs will never show up there.

But Faction Farming is no way of showing you are Elite, since everyone can do it. And its not difficult at all to faction farm. So how is that elite?

jackie · May 10, 2006, 05:22 AM // 05:22

Devs made it quite clear what they think: Large is good when it's about Alliances controlling cities.

Well, all I can say that this discriminates little guilds that Don't want to merge into some big alliance. Would be soooo much nicer if getting control of cities requires skill, not the amount of grinding. This way GW wouldn't force ppl to make alliances if they don't want to.

Zehnchu · May 10, 2006, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Are you defending the system or just bragging with a new elitist’s attitude? Seems like you are doing a lot more bragging then are defending.

In any case, I see everyone else’s point of view of why controlling a town/city needs to be re-tooled. This whole “geared towards level 20 characters” I don’t seem to be seeing much of that probably because it’s behind locked gates.

Kaguya · May 10, 2006, 06:37 AM // 06:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeanHeartstone

Kaguya, you say that normal play will get uber gear, but I don't think that's ever been entirely true for Guild Wars. It takes quite a lot of money to get a sup abs. and/or sup vigor which I don't think is anywhere comparable to the amount of money you get for just completing the quests/missions.

You will get max damage 15^50 weapons easy from collectors, and by the time you reach those collectors, you've salvaged atleast a couple of useful weapon mods, thus 'uber' gear without farming.

Superior absorb/vigor can be found with luck, and the price isn't much nothing these days on them either. Vigor is still pretty high, but is 30k gold worth 10 hitpoints? Don't think so, the new armor sets with +HP mods give more than that easy.

=HT=Ingram · May 10, 2006, 06:50 AM // 06:50

In all reality I really want to see an alliance get through the elite missions. lol best I have heard of so far is about the 4th or 5th room on the Kur side. and Dont know on the Lux side. looking forward to seeing that final boss kill!!! lol

Vaga · May 10, 2006, 07:08 AM // 07:08

I don't think they should have any of that crap posted above about how if you complete the entire map you can go in. I think there needs to be more bonuses for owners of other towns, because any guild can gain control of a town if they try hard enough. A small discount on keys for your alliance having

I also think that they should remove the whole once you get there you can stay there forever thing, and instead just allow people to be guested into the elite mission. There would be a better chance of the alliances allowing pugs if they knew that they weren't just going to stay there forever.

Whilst gaining control of a city is all about grinding, the more skilled you are the easier it is to get faction. Like setting the records in the challenge missions gives you 8k faction over 8 people. So if you just set the record once thats 64,000 faction for about 15 minutes of farming.

There also needs to be a dungeon controlled by alliance battles, so when kurzicks are winning only kurzick allied guilds can access it, and the opposite for luxon. This dungeon could harbor new greens, and maybe even its own type of items like chaos axes in FoW.

It just seems unbalanced that only two alliances can own the city and thus only two can go to an elite mission. I dont think other alliances should be able to access the mission, but maybe have access to missions that have plenty of chests or somthing.