Curse

Ira Blinks · Jul 02, 2006, 11:48 PM // 23:48

FalconDance
good... we finally making some progres... now how about you apply your advise to yourself and stop arguing against something i never said? I'm telling you one thnig, you generalize it ridicilous levels twist it inside out and try to make me look like a fool. Sorry I don't buy this crap. Better look after yourself sweetie.

Fates · Jul 02, 2006, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

...
IMHO the most ineffective "nuker" is one where a couple of MS/Rodgorts get fired off and the rest of the time is spent wanding.......

If your nuker only has the energy to get off two MS and a rodgorts, you need to spend a little more time looking at skills.

For all you people ranting about not wanting to play the classic nuker build, go to the deep or urgoz warren and spam "Nuker LFG, do not have MS" and see what kind of response you get. You will have a very difficult time finding a team, and when you do, they will be very inexperienced. Want to know why?

The reason is, MS works, combined with tanks that know what they are doing, it works very well, and is the fastest way through either mission. I've done the deep in 1:20, we had four MS nukers that knew what they were doing. None of them used the agro scattering AoE spells from Factions, so the tanks were able to keep everything nicely bottled up and stuff died fast.

If you respond to "group lfg nuker" and dont have MS (echoed or glyphed) prepare to take some heat in these missions. A good group does not want you scattering the mobs, thus slowing it down. Keeping mobs nicely grouped is the differene between finishing in 1:30 or in 3-4 hours. You are doing the group a huge disservice and it's going to piss some people off.

One last thought. There is no one super person you need to kill, you are killing mobs. So your air or water spike is rather useless. You want AoE that doesn't scatter. The best for that is MS, you can't argue that.

FalconDance · Jul 03, 2006, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

<snip>I am friggin sick and tired of all those open-minded idiots out there ...

<snip>I don't even care what you think is good. I know what is good because it was tested many times and it works...<snip>

<snip>It doesn't matter how well you perform on your own because if you are not doing what group expects you to do, bacause you are screwing everyone over your stupidity... because you are selfish arrogant noob.<snip>

Now, I really don't know what else you are going on about so I will post this since this was what I referred to when I said you were saying people were stupid, not me.

At any rate, no progress can be made on the matter between the two of us (or three if Avarre is included) since apparently you believe and have stated ad nausuem only you are right and all others are obviously deluded 'noobs' thinking we are effective.

Fates Monk, the 'discussion' isn't whether or not a nuker is the best build, it's more is a nuker the only effective build. As said before, there are places or situations where fire is the element of choice but to say that a nuker is the only real and effective elementalist build and all others are arrogant egomaniacs out to screw their parties is....well, false and perhaps ignorant. I have NEVER even attempted to join a party if they are advertising for a nuker since that's not what I run. However, if they are simply asking for an ele, I pm the party leader and ask if they need (whatever I'm running). If the answer is yes, good. If not, they decline and we go our separate ways, no bad feelings.

If nukers are the be-all and end-all of the game, why in the world would there even be any other skills/builds to choose from?

FalconDance · Jul 03, 2006, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Come to think of it, I've never been at Urgoz when there were enough people to make any difference! Maybe I just don't play at the right times.

Fates · Jul 03, 2006, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Fates Monk, the 'discussion' isn't whether or not a nuker is the best build, it's more is a nuker the only effective build.

and I'm saying... in The Deep and Urgoz, the nuker really is the most effective build. If you dont care about effectiveness or about whether or not your group bitches at you, run something else.

There are other places that other build are effective, no doubt. Not really sure where in PvE I'd rather have a spiker than a AoE that doesn't scatter, but for PvP....sure.

Fates · Jul 03, 2006, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Try International districts Falcon.

FalconDance · Jul 03, 2006, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Will do, thanks for the tip! Usually Int'l is deserted (everywhere else) so I never thought to try there.

nightsquire · Jul 03, 2006, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

Oh excuse me, but so far you, Avarre and OP are the ones who ranting here... "whaaaa... i'm not being accepted by stupid people... whaaa..... i wanna play this build but people don't like me... whaaa...."
Make yourself worthy being accepted and the problem will go away by itself.

Are you kidding me?
If i see "Avarre Minnestres" or whatever EVER on GW i will accept her in an instant without even thinking of what her build is. She is a legend here.

Basically what your sayign is, Conform to cookiecutter builds to get stuff of gtfo and have fun on your own. Remind me again who here is being selfish?

It all comes down to this: GW is a game, and there are just way too many people like you who take it WAY too seriously.

Ira Blinks · Jul 03, 2006, 05:55 AM // 05:55

FalconDance
ok... dude let me tell you something. You are a noob. This isn't attempt to offend you, this is a fact. And before you get all upset let me explain how I know that you are a noob. It is quiet obviously follows from the things you say.

For example you claim to be an effective minion master with primary ele. Few things are wrong with this. To sum it up you can only be effective MM with secondary necro on low levels where difference between minions' level and mobs' level isn't significant. In fact when I started my Rit I played MM as well and it worked perfect until I got to the Cantha mainland.

When you get to lvl20 you will face mobs lvl20 and above, while your Death magic will still be capped at 12, which gives you lvl14 minions. They will be wiped so fast it isn't even worth fraction of energy you spent on raising them.
Don't even start me on energy management issue... Of course you don't know that because your minion cap is probably 6-7 anyway, so you don't have energy issues raising them.

That is an excellent example of the builds I was talking about... Does it works? Yes, on low levels... Does it work later in game and high-end areas? No way in hell...
If you (as a party leader) want a MM you take necro primary, because his minions are level 18 (26 for golem) and he has good energy management tied up to raising minions. And that is exactly that your ele doesn't have.

Another problem with your earth/death build is spreaded attribute points. If you want to be good at something, you have to specialize in that thing. That means that if you want to be a good earth ele you need 16 points in earth and 13 points in e-storage. Now if you went with minions that means you have reduced either of those two by a few points to pump it into Death, which results in below average earth ele and a crappy minion master in one.
Why would you take a perfectly good build and turn it into two shtty builds? My guess is you have no clue.

Now back to noob vs open-minded discussion. I am not uber pro gamer you know, nor I ever claimed to be one, but let’s compare me with you.

I have all elementalists’ skills from both prophecies and factions (in fact i have most skills available in game for all professions and moving fast to a complete set) and you have only factions skills.

I have played my ele long before dreaded AoE nerf and I used things like firestorm back when they were somewhat useful. I played many variations of geotank. I played air spiker and flashbot. I played warder/support/hp spam ele. I played water snares and invinci builds. I played exotic pyrobombs. And of course I played various versions of nuker build. Heck, I don't think there is a distinct ele build out there that I didn't play.
You? Well, you quiet obviously didn't do much of that. Yet you claim to be open-minded, but the truth is you simply don't know all the aspects of the ele profession. The only thing you base your claims off really is cookie-cutterness of nuker build (which you obviously cannot play with factions-only skillset). You did not try it. You just assumed it is lame because everyone does it and you in your childish arrogance is soooo very different.
I tried so called FC nuker build. I tried it all (except for obviously flawed things like your ele/mm). I can see the big picture, and you can't. Yet you claim to know it better than I do and call me short minded and my builds cookie-cutter when you can't even reproduce them.

Another thing you obviously don't know is the nature of high level PvE.
In your exploration with henchies maximum you face is 5-6 lvl24 mobs at a time. Thus in basic PvE you can afford to play defensively. You can make sure your party members/henchies are safe and slowly tackle down opposing AI. In fact I often do that on pair with Cynn to...

In high-end PvE it is not uncommon to face 15-20 lvl28 mobs at a time in fairly balanced groups with melee/spikers/casters/healers. You can not afford to play slow here. You either kill them fast or you don't kill them at all (simply because they will kill you faster). That is why nuker is valued there.
Even if we would remove scattering effect from AoE, it is still useless... because DPS is useless (unless you really have ALOT of it like b/p). lvl28 mobs tend to have high AL and hardcore monks, so they simply laugh at your pathetic DPS. You really need to spike them to get them killed. And what is a better way to spike if not AoE spike? And that is my dear, called NUKE. That is why FC "nuker" (quoted because it isn't really a nuker, it really means an ele because for most players those two words mean the same thing, while they are not) is a good way to get yourself killed and pissoff bunch of players.

Face the obvious fact. Having skills from both campaigns is better than just one. It offers variety and flexibility. But you telling me that you can do as good if not better... You wrong, sweetie, and I think you know it, you just can't accept the defeat.

So let me tell you something. I am not the god of this game, but I am good enough at it to tell by looking at the build if it might work or not... and if yes, in what situation and exactly why. Same way I know why OP's build and yours does not really belong to serious groups and especially elite missions. It will fail individually and even worse it will fail to contribute to team efforts.

Excuse me if I skip more detailed explanations, I've been baby-sitting people for too long and found it rather unrewarding. All I can tell you is play the game, experiment with henchies or friends, learn... and most importantly please do the build people ask you to when it comes to farming. Ask questions if you have to, but don't go silently just to make people rezone and kick you out.
Don't think I'm trying to make you look subpar to me. I always ask what build party leader wants from when I join (unless I saw his ad and selfinvited ofcourse). I know that 99% of the time they will just say "nuker", it doesn't matter. If the group fails it won't be my fault, because I contributed what I was expected to.

PS don't bother replying, i'm done with this thread.

Dr Strangelove · Jul 03, 2006, 06:55 AM // 06:55

It really is fortunate that the entire game has been figured out to such an extent that we all have the perfect builds for every area of the game. What fun it must be for new players to never have to create a build when they have upstanding players like Ira dictating their skills, equipment, tactics, and hair color.

Anyone who deviates from the standard cookie cutter builds is guilty of doublethink and should immediately convert to a standard cookie cutter build lest the Zaishen Thought Police come to purge them immediately. Why, experimentation, discovery, intelligence and fun have absolutely nothing to do with this game.

True story, one time during a mission, I was kind enought to dictate build to every player in my party so they wouldn't have to go through the hassle of thinking for themselves. Lo and behold, the ele on the team didn't follow my instructions and didn't have meteor shower. I immediately ragequit, as there's no valid reason why everyone should not bend before my every whim. After all, I have been playing for 8760 hours and know better than anyone how to play the game.

Well99 · Jul 03, 2006, 07:00 AM // 07:00

LOL.....

Zinger314 · Jul 03, 2006, 07:08 AM // 07:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Anyone who deviates from the standard cookie cutter builds is guilty of doublethink and should immediately convert to a standard cookie cutter build lest the Zaishen Thought Police come to purge them immediately. Why, experimentation, discovery, intelligence and fun have absolutely nothing to do with this game.

This isn't 1984, this is knowing your primary role.

When a person in The Deep outpost sees an Elementalist primary, he thinks:

"hmm, that person must be a High AoE Damager."

NOT:

"hmm, that person must have substandard wards and substandards minions!" (following FalconDances's "combo."

)

In a PuG, you need to live up to expectations. You need them more than they need you.

If you want innovation, get a guild group. Keep your ineffective builds out of the PuG.

Paperfly · Jul 03, 2006, 07:10 AM // 07:10

Quote:

Really? Guess that explains all the rits and 'sins then since the eles are soooo icky. Wow, I'm glad y'all saved me from myself! <said with major sacrcasm>

Oh wait, I have a Canthan ele primary. For a while she ran Air (fire eles are a dime a dozen and I prefer Air/Earth, anyhow) but now she's Earth and Death (a dirty little minion mistress ).....and is very successful!

Heyyy, tone down the aggro! The point I was making was that, as an Elementalist player and sympathiser, I thought the the new-to-Factions skill list wasn't very interesting, and to all appearances wasn't very powerful either. On top of that, a lot of "staples" didn't make the Core Skills list; and neither did most of the wothwhile elites.

As a Water ele, all I had to look forward to was Vapor-freaking-Blade. Meanwhile, Water Trident, Mist Form and Ward Against Harm - useful elites - were making way for Shatterstone.

Air and Earth have it slightly better - although the loss of Windborne Speed is a real blow - but that's because Obsidian Flame, Ward Against Melee and Blinding Flash made core... You still have the problem of a significant lack of "depth" in the selection to pad out your skill bars.

The ele "running joke" was that other players had spotted this too, and so nobody was attracted to or interested in starting a new Elementalist for Factions - which I thought was really sad.

Notice how none of the above is an attack on your ability to play an original character? There are some hard bits in Guild Wars, but very little of it is so hard that some native intelligence on the part of the player isn't worth more than an "optimised" skill selection.

Avarre · Jul 03, 2006, 07:47 AM // 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

It is your overgrown ego pushes you to be different all the time.

That is the funniest post I have read in all my time on gwg. I salute you. It perfectly sums up the feelings of your side in this discussion, and makes my point perfectly.

I vote we delete the entire thread and only leave that reply. Not sarcasm, really. People can read that 1 line and take it either way because it summarizes everything. Even though you're done with this thread (so am I, by now), that just needed mention.

FalconDance · Jul 03, 2006, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Agreed, Avarre. I've now been thoroughly called a 'noob' since I do not conform to someone's idea of the perfect, well, anything.

Ira, I have never in my entire life been mistaken for a 'dude'. Just a note.

For the record, yes, my little MM is restricted to 12 Death. That gives me 8 minions. Now while that may not be the ideal, it does seem to help the party along.....at far less energy cost than a necro primary (a profession I've played to completion twice already). Don't need a battery along, can easily maintain the minions and still defend myself while dealing damage. Hmmmm, again, maybe not the ideal but FUN and EFFECTIVE in its own way (i.e. it's part of a party build, not an uber-AoE damage dealer). AND I'm not so set in stone that all that couldn't be changed at will. It's just that for now, it doesn't need to be.

Now, once deeper into Cantha if it becomes necessary to rethink skills, why wouldn't I be able to do so? I spend quite a bit of time before I ever start a character exploring skill descriptions and trying to determine what good combinations might be in advance. Then I create the character and test out the theory.

And I do know about higher level missions and quests. Finished Prophecies with the full roster (retired a few to make room for new builds then finished with them while waiting for Factions). They all seemed to do quite well without having all the possible skills -- and only Prophecies skills, at that! In fact, I have a Kurzick warrior and a Luxon ranger right now who are quite merrily scything through the foe. Neither of them are quite cookie-cutter builds but they seem to be doing okay despite that fact.

I wonder how these super-duper builds that are sooooo perfect ever became known if someone did not pour hours and hours into experimentation? Surely no one created the perfect ele (or whatever) from the very start. At some point someone thought to themselves, "hmm, wonder if this would work" and set out to see. Maybe they were successful, maybe not. They then, I would imagine, continued to gain skills and tweak their character until they discovered the best combination for themselves in certain areas. Funny, I wonder if they were blasted for their attempts at the time as Ira has so happily done here? Then, as generous players who wanted to help (ok, maybe they just wanted a little backup from warriors and monks

) they shared that build with others.

If everyone plays only a certain combination of skills to the exclusion of all others, why bother? Hell, just give us all the same character from the outset, take out all the customization and skills acquisition so we can all play the best and most 'effective' same!

But, whatever. You play your tried-and-true, and I'll have fun trying new things.

NOTE: to the OP, sorry this got so badly derailed. I'm with Avarre on this one though: Factions is a stand-alone game which means technically it has its own skills and Prophecies has its own. There is some overlap, of course, but you can build a very effective character with just the skills of one continent if you take the time to do so. If anyone faults you for not having the elites and a few of the other skills from another chapter, then whose problem is that? I say theirs for being so narrow-minded and needy that only a certain set could possibly be 'best'. It's a game, have fun.

Well99 · Jul 03, 2006, 02:50 PM // 14:50

The way you beat the game isnt thru uber builds but thru teamwork.A pug where everyone works together and doesnt have a bunch of prima donna's running around can pretty much handle anything.
I noticed that some folks with these "Leet" builds also are the first to go AFK or bail out on the group.That doesnt mean all with uber builds do.
You would'nt get all these skills if you werent meant to try different combinations.
It is a game and games are bought to have fun with.

Zinger314 · Jul 03, 2006, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Well99

It is a game and games are bought to have fun with.

Winning is fun.

Hence the reason you can't use sub-par builds!

You are a liability to the group if you don't play your role.

(Plus you are an insult to the Necromancers who do have 16 Death Magic and are taking their spot in the group.)

Avarre · Jul 03, 2006, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Since when did PvE become so hard that one person playing a fun or IUP (intentionally underpowered build) put winning at risk? Hell in most areas you can have everyone running odd builds and do fine

Teamwork is more important, if you work together well it wont matter if you are a non-standardized build.

Nilator · Jul 03, 2006, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Why is everyone bashing Fire Storm? It is a perfect skill. Got some warriors on your monk? Fire Storm them, spread aggro to other members of the party.

AW Lore · Jul 03, 2006, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Since when did PvE become so hard that one person playing a fun or IUP (intentionally underpowered build) put winning at risk? Hell in most areas you can have everyone running odd builds and do fine

Teamwork is more important, if you work together well it wont matter if you are a non-standardized build.

loved it when i did arborstone mission with a full ranger party and a blood damage necro, sadly he didnt had any order skill