Curse

Scourgey · Dec 07, 2006, 03:21 PM // 15:21

XvArchonvX is correct, this whole area revolves around aggro management and mesmer does lack somewhat in AOE damage. If there are no hexes around, then shatter hex is useless (I used to prefer it when my FOW teams went in without spell breaker). Despite this, I still find the armour ignoring damage of spiritual pain & energy surge useful to DOA groups particularly when aggro is lost (less time casting and more time running!).

I wouldn't run a Nec/Mes as most of the energy comes when the mobs die (which is usually all at once).

Njaiguni Blaze · Dec 07, 2006, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Ha! I found a reason NOT to use AoE dmg in DoA!

You know the skill "Enraged"? Well, it increases the casters' attack and skill damage by 25% and an additional 25%...75% based on the amount the caster has taken. So attacking one foe at a time and to quickly bring it down is the safest method. And what other way can you take a foe down better than to shut it down and damage it? Eat that you Meteor Shower wannabe's XD

Vlatro · Dec 07, 2006, 09:49 PM // 21:49

I wouldn't expect anyone to pick up my mesmer for a mission just because I claim to be good. I can play my mesmer with friends or guildmates who know my play style. They often beg me to switch to a mesmer before helping them with a mission.

People will discriminate against the class because of some common mistakes mesmers make.

A good mesmer is not made so by his skills. It's all about his attitude and ability to think quickly. Unlike other professions, your choice of weapons and skills are secondary to your personal ability. (although proper skills and weapons should not be neglected).

Many will continue to attack a single target until it's dead, the way an ele spiker would. That's just plain stupid. Switch targets frequently, and weaken the enemy party as a whole, then people will be amazed at how quickly they were defeated.

Most mesmer spells work without line of sight, so hide. Staying behind a wall, standing above, or below the enemy will shelter you from arrow attacks, and many elemental attacks. Just don't corner yourself.

Bring a self heal. Do not burden the monks, and leave the warriors to die form neglect.

Remember you are the closest thing to a tactician this game has. Bring the right skills for each mission, and change for the next. Where most professions can do well with a very generic build, you must be specialized for the task.

If you do a good enough job at not getting ganked by mobs, you should be able to attack at a leisurely pace, allowing you to observe your surroundings and communicate with your team more thoroughly and from a better perspective than most other players could. The healers eyes are usually focused on the party window, monitoring other people's health, the Tank is usually focusing on his targets next skill, but you can easily observe the entire field and see the collective effect of enemy attacks. You are more likely to see the enemy ritualist healing with spirits, and should call it out. You'll see the ele getting ready to drop a meteor shower, so interrupt it and let your team know it poses a greater threat than the guys their focusing on. You are the battle commander. Make it known, and your party will value you just for that alone.

Bring a res every time. Trust me, you'll usually be that last one standing in a loosing battle. Teams love the guys who save their asses, they hate the guy who leaves them hanging, or has to rezone.

Remember, Status symbols are everything in this game. Get the coolest looking armor, rare pets, unique weapons. These things all show a level of proficiency and dedication to the character and their skill set. The best player in the world, running around in ascalon style armor will not get picked. The idiot who bought ectos on ebay for his FoW armor will.

Never spam "Me LFG Mission" you'll never get picked. Instead say:"Does anyone need help with the mission?". You'll get invited quickly. Look up the Bonuses and Mission objective before hand and familiarize yourself with what needs to be done. Remember, you're the tactician, this is your job. Don't rely on beggars and noobs to know what is happening, or it'll just end up being a waste of YOUR time. Even if you've don't the mission before, look it up again to refresh your memory. People will thank you for your company.

XvArchonvX · Dec 07, 2006, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Njaiguni Blaze

Ha! I found a reason NOT to use AoE dmg in DoA!

You know the skill "Enraged"? Well, it increases the casters' attack and skill damage by 25% and an additional 25%...75% based on the amount the caster has taken. So attacking one foe at a time and to quickly bring it down is the safest method. And what other way can you take a foe down better than to shut it down and damage it? Eat that you Meteor Shower wannabe's XD

If you have a good group that understands how aggro works, it should be possible to keep aggro centered on one ally for the most part and then focuz AoE damage on the mob. With the right setup, the extra damage won't really matter as long as you keep it focused on your buffed up tank ally. I won't claim that this works perfectly everywhere, but it does seem to be the most effective strategy atm. Even without the damage increase from Enraged, enemies that are not centering damage on one ally still deal more damage than can be dealt with by free for all type practices in DoA.

Njaiguni Blaze · Dec 08, 2006, 12:45 AM // 00:45

K Archon, I give up, I'm not gonna debate with you any more

But I still have fun with my lil' cocky Nolani in DoA, proving that she can be better than the most retarded ppl there (even more retards there than in Deep, Urgoz's and FoW together). Hopefully that place will get me to the other half I need for Vabbian armor. She's gonna look so hot, not hotter than the Rogue's she's wearing now, but it kinda bored me out know.

4rch4ng31 · Dec 08, 2006, 01:11 AM // 01:11

My team beat City only because we had me (I was a BiP necro) and another player taking Backfire for the double healer groups. If we had a Dom Mes, it would've been way easier.

Mesmers pwn. You really have to be awake to play one, which is why I don't play them (I have bad reaction time with interrupts), but I'd welcome them into my group any day.

Apok Omen · Dec 08, 2006, 01:36 AM // 01:36

Mesmers do things alot differently than average classes. They KNOW when to utilize their skills, not spam them endlessly.

Also, Archon, you have made some interesting points, but the Mesmer class can do one thing that the other classes can't: shutdown one enemy to lower the defense of the whole mob.

You may think that shutting npc's down is worthless, but it really isnt. In fact, it is very helpful. Take any mission with a Monk boss. Virtually, any damage you deal to them will be overhealed by the AI. But if you put a shutdown mesmer in there to topple the healing, you will start to see the whole group fall alot more quickly.

You said it yourself: An SF ele and a SS Necro has better AoE DPS than a Mesmer, but in my experience in DoA, you only need 5 defensive players, and 3 damage dealers. SF, after the applied burning, does less than half the damage to the new AI. SS is armor ignoring, so it can stick on any enemy until it wears off. Now, burning does armor ignoring damage as well, so if you keep it up, then they degen very quickly. Now, a Mesmer can handle their defense, making them drop even quicker. I have practiced with the N-M-E combo with the same set up, and it did the job.

Antheus · Dec 08, 2006, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Yea, I agree there, lots of pugs don't understand the potential of many classes. Mesmers and Assasins are great additions to a group for Ruins of Morah. Even though I don't think that mesmers are the most well suited class for many situations, I don't think that this should give most groups an excuse to not take one. The only places I would not take a mesmer to would be end game areas that consist of tons of big mobs attacking in waves, but for most PvE, a mesmer can do just fine.

Is Gate of Pain end-game area?
Gate of Madness?
Abaddon's gate?

Mesmer works there. Very well even.

The funny thing is, mesmer makes big mobs cry. It's just that when playing one, you will not spend 10 or more seconds casting the nukes, but you're subtle. But it's not until you experiment around a bit, that you see how much you did contribute.

An excuse? Mesmers don't need an excuse to join groups. What they do need is join groups that ask for them. That's the only place where they'll do their role best.

Perhaps the greatest irony is, that trapping groups and trapper nuker groups that seem to be popular in DoA are insanely slow. While somewhat unrelated to mesmer, misunderstanding one class leaves no room for improvement. Especially in DoA, where everyone dies in two hits without experience.

So this isn't about whether mesmers are wanted or useful. It's about the fact they don't fit into the W/E/Mo model. Just like assasins, dervishes and ritualists don't.

But it's groups that experiment around that do have success and soon start mocking the tank/nuker model. And with a good reason. But beliefs are hard to fight against.

rick1027 · Dec 08, 2006, 01:58 AM // 01:58

hate to say it over and over again usually to guildmates always takes a necro or mesmer or ranger in your group. not because we are giving charity because most mission tend to be easier with them. the same at times may be said about assassin(if the person knows how to play it). i dont know i havent formed a opinion of dervish or paragon yet. i still remember the days when only group lets in ele monks and fighters and the other classes were ignored. not as sure about this now but your best players played those classes usually after they played the big 3 first so they knew game better than the group anyways

Terra Xin · Dec 08, 2006, 02:40 AM // 02:40

I've been called quite alot for the end-game missions. Anyone saying that Mesmers are not useful there is quite blatently happy doing it with the added 30 minutes to completion. Having a Mesmer in the party helps significantly, when you notice them going off-target and soloing a caster with just Backfire, then you'll know that the mesmer still has 6 other skills to make use of.

Lord Sasuke · Dec 08, 2006, 02:43 AM // 02:43

Well mesmers are real good idk what you people are talking about.
In the Torment area where i farm light bringer points i take this build which owns a group in secs.
E Surge{E}
WW
mistrust
Spiritual Pain
Backfire
drain enchantment
Power Drain
Lightbringer Gaze
Well what you do is use mistrust on the spell caster that is in the middle of the bunch, which most of the time is the cleric.So after you cast mistrust on the caster then follow it up by spiritual pain - E surge - Light Gaze. which owns a group in like 5 sec if done correctly.I use E surge because with rank 4 light bringer it does 102 or so dmg to every 1. so thats a dangerous spike which is armor ignoring.And with this build i farm the torment area with hench/heroes.

XvArchonvX · Dec 08, 2006, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Njaiguni Blaze

K Archon, I give up, I'm not gonna debate with you any more

But I still have fun with my lil' cocky Nolani in DoA, proving that she can be better than the most retarded ppl there (even more retards there than in Deep, Urgoz's and FoW together). Hopefully that place will get me to the other half I need for Vabbian armor. She's gonna look so hot, not hotter than the Rogue's she's wearing now, but it kinda bored me out know.

Better gameplay is more important than the class played 9 times out of 10. A good mesmer is better than a crappy ele/necro/etc. I made only a general statement in regards to the class with the assumption that the players skill would be equal.

@ Apok:
I don't think that shutting down an enemy is worthless, I only belive that MS + Earthbind to create AoE shutdown is more effective in areas with big mobs of enemies. Good aggro control is the key to success.

@ Antheus:
At Gates of Anguish. I am very aware of how effective mesmers are at many of the last missions, but my statements were in regards to the areas that consist of wave after wave of enemy mobs.

Also I don't believe in the W/E/Mo rigidity of groups. While I haven't explored all of DoA, I have seen E/Me obsid flesh eles as being the best choice for a tank. For this to work, a good rit with Weapon of Quickening is needed. Even without an obsid flesh tank, I believe rits are excellent choices for many builds in the area. I've also actually heard of some teams using Shadow Form on 2 assasins for tanks. I agree that open mindedness and communication is the key to success in these areas, but as it stands right now, the most effective method of getting through these areas still lies in rounding up the enemies in a ball, keeping damage centered on one ally, then taking out the group as quickly as possible.

There are still people that seem to be mistaking me for saying that mesmers are bad in PvE. That is not my statement. All I believe is that there is generally a better choice for areas that consist of waves of massive mobs.

LordDeArnise · Dec 08, 2006, 05:58 AM // 05:58

Then the major task with balling up enemy grps is keeping them in that ball for massive attacks, like SS and MS. Sound plan, yes, but even AI mobs in NF will, of course, run when they're low on health and in a spot where SS is taking effect.

Like you, though, I don't like the rigid notion of W/E/Mo groups simply because the players who regularly join such groups are too narrow-minded to mix things up with the other "support" classes. Having a well-balanced group with players playing to their strengths and style of play, combined with efficient communication will get grps by in DoA and other high-end areas, even if it is an excruciatingly slow trapper squad, or the rigid, demanding W/E/Mo setup. It all comes down to which class the individual player has most success, fun, and specialization in. To me, it's the Mesmer, Ranger, and Spirit Ritualist.

XvArchonvX · Dec 08, 2006, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordDeArnise

Then the major task with balling up enemy grps is keeping them in that ball for massive attacks, like SS and MS. Sound plan, yes, but even AI mobs in NF will, of course, run when they're low on health and in a spot where SS is taking effect.

I agree here. Holding aggro is a lot sloppier than it used to be and requires a much more aware group to make sure they dont steal it from the tank. The best method to compensate is to have casters run up, cast, then run away, but even then it's pretty much inevitable for at least one enemy to sneak by. Having a monk with Prot Spirit and a Rit with Shadowsong (not only to blind, but to distract and become an alternative target for the stray enemy to attack) can really save the day in these situations.

Painbringer · Dec 08, 2006, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Anytime I see posts that state Memers, Assasins, Ritualist, and Dervish suck or are not good to have in a group etc… It makes me want to play one even more. Currently playing a mesmer and I am loving every bit of it. The big thing is the build you use for the quest/mission (take advantage of both classes 1st and secondary) and play smart. Do some research all you need to know is on Wiki (Thanks to you all for contributing to the awesome info on Wiki) If it is a mission that needs disruption then build accordingly. If not then go for damage, slow down or even energy drain. Have any of you class haters tried an Air spiker / shocker build for a mesmer? It is awesome fun. You can cut down warriors pretty effectively. Have you tried an Assassin Crit Shot, Ritualist Minion Bomber, or a Dervish Enchanted Tank one little ranger spirit and you can have 1000 hit points or more with proper support. The game is based on being balanced. All classes are good! Hats off to you fellow Mesmers / Assasins / Rits and Dervs you are always welcome in my group.

XvArchonvX · Dec 08, 2006, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Painbringer

Anytime I see posts that state Memers, Assasins, Ritualist, and Dervish suck or are not good to have in a group etc… It makes me want to play one even more.

I think this is exactly what motivates people to be extreme on the opposite end the subject. Unfortunately there will be people who react to foolishness with equal, but opposing foolishness. I am not assuming this is the case with you, and I by no mean intend to suggest this. I have seen some people who do however try to talk like mesmers/assasins/etc. are the ultimate best class ever in all situations. Truth be told, I don't think there is an inferior class in GW, but there are situations where the strengths of one class can outweight the strengths of another.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Painbringer

All classes are good!

qft, but being a good class doesn't mean you are always the best choice.

NinjaKai · Dec 08, 2006, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

I am not assuming this is the case with you, and I by no mean intend to suggest this. I have seen some people who do however try to talk like mesmers/assasins/etc. are the ultimate best class ever in all situations. Truth be told, I don't think there is an inferior class in GW, but there are situations where the strengths of one class can outweight the strengths of another.

Its not that mesmers or other professions are good or bad like you say. Like any profession it is dependant on the players skill and if they can effectively use that profession. And not all groups fully understand what a profession does then sticks with the option they think is safest.