Curse

LoKi Foxfire · Dec 03, 2006, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nilator

As a "Stance" Tank in DoA, I highly suggest this build instead.
MoF
Dolyak Sig
Defy Pain
Watch Yourself
Shield Stance
Heal Sig
Cyclone Axe
Optional

Healing Signet is overall a pretty bad skill to use here since you will get spiked much harder when your armor suddenly drops by 40. The damage reduction is applied AFTER the armor I believe. I had one Warrior using this and the damage he took went up a good amount even with Mantra of Frost. Needless to say, we didn't get too far that time.

Also, you're already using Mantra of Frost so why bother bringing Shield Stance? Chances are in the city that if you turn off Mantra of Frost while tanking mobs you wont have the energy after using Cyclone Axe to get back up. Cyclone won't be that effective in the City because every enemy near you will cause you to lose 2 energy when you activate it.

As for Dolyak Signet, I've seen a lot of people use it. As long as you can body block perfectly, you're fine. I'd also recommend using that. Defy Pain is also a good possibility if your monks can manage to deal with the sudden HP drop if wears prematurely.

Edit: Since I've also seen these builds being used while play-testing, I've updated the original post. It's tough to always remember.

Has anyone had any success with using SV and Ancestor's Visage on the tank? I know they remove enchantments but it might be useful in shutting down their casters and healers. The Margonites even bring Famine for you!

]SK[ · Dec 03, 2006, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Nice idea about SV.

I found its pointless attacking as a warrior. Because of this Signet of Stamina is now on my DoA skill bar.

Kcp · Dec 03, 2006, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Had a great warrior in our group last night, he heal sig'd thru anything seriously. This was in the city too. I know he was using Defy Pain elite, endure, sig stamina, watch yourself, dolyak, heal sig, mantra of frost, forget last skill maybe res. We had him bonded so of course that was a big help too.

A couple times he was almost spiked down, but that dirty little heal sig kept going and going. I was impressed I stopped hexing enemies to watch him for a few seconds.

ubermancer · Dec 03, 2006, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kcp

Had a great warrior in our group last night, he heal sig'd thru anything seriously. This was in the city too. I know he was using Defy Pain elite, endure, sig stamina, watch yourself, dolyak, heal sig, mantra of frost, forget last skill maybe res. We had him bonded so of course that was a big help too.

A couple times he was almost spiked down, but that dirty little heal sig kept going and going. I was impressed I stopped hexing enemies to watch him for a few seconds.

If you are going to be a tank and keep enchants on yourself, you should seriously just take a E/A earth/shadow tanker.

Armor of Earth, Obsidian Flesh {E}, Stoneflesh Aura, Deadly Paradox, and Dark Escape are the core skills.

You can add Feigned Neutrality, but its limitations are prohibitive. A nice alternative is the old stand by Kinetic Armor, along with a spam skill like Stone Daggers or Aura of Restoration. Recall allows for quick retreats (in which the enemy does not follow), Grasping Earth can help keep them on you, Sliver Armor contributes to damage... you get the point.

Have someone put Balthazar's Spirit on him is all thats needed for energy, of course.

+166 armor from enchants, half damage from all sources, -0..8 damage reduction (LB), -33 damage reduction, can not suffer crits, can not be the target of spells... a Fireball which did 400 damage to you at 60 AL, would do NO damage to you under this set up.

4rch4ng31 · Dec 04, 2006, 06:19 AM // 06:19

About the Mantra of Frost thing... wouldn't it be better to do Elemental Resistance, provided everything's gonna be elemental? You don't even have to have Winter to do it that way. I've included my math, taking the damage % equation on http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Damage

LONG STORY SHORT: Elemental Resistance gives more protection from damage for the same cost and less spent attribute points than Mantra of Frost, with the sacrifice of gaining 2 energy per hit with Mantra. 40% reduction with Mantra at 9 Inspiration Magic to approximately 50% reduction with Resistance at any level of Inspiration.

Notation: eAR is elemental armor; AR is armor level as shown in the armor's description.

eAR = (Your Current AR - 60)

1 / (2^(eAL/40)) = ~Damage Taken %

I've used the ranger for this since the math works out the prettiest (no nasty decimal exponents):

I'm assuming around 40% damage reduction with Mantra, since the builds in the OP have anywhere from 39% to 42% based on their Inspiration Magic level.

eAR with 100AR base (Druid's Armor) = 40
eAR with 100AR base and Mantra of Frost = 40
eAR with 140AR base thanks to resistance = 80

Now for the math part.

100AR base with no Mantra:

1/(2^(40/40)) = 1/(2^1) = 1/2 = .5 = ~50% of the damage in the spell description
So, if this ranger would be normally hit for 100 in the description, he or she is actually hit for about 50.

100AR base with Mantra:

We'll skip the equation since it's the same, but this time:

50 x .6 = ~30 damage

So overall, between these two builds we see a difference of 20 damage. This difference will be larger as the armor level goes down, because the original damage will be higher.

140AR base thanks to Elemental Resistance:

1/(2^(80/40)) = 1/(2^2) = 1/4 = .25 = ~25% of the damage in the spell description.
Therefore, with 100 damage in the description, this ranger actually takes 25.

This works similarly with casters with 60AR

60AR means eAR is 0 for the standard caster armor. We'll compare 0eAR with Mantra and 40eAR due to Resistance

0eAR:

1/(2^(0/40)) = 1/(2^0) = 1/1 = 1.00 = 100% of the spell description's damage.
Assuming 100 damage, 100 x 1 x .6 = 60 damage, a reduction of 40.

40eAR:

1/(2^(40/40)) = 1/(2^1) = 1/2 = .5 = 50% of the description.
With 100 damage in the description, 100 x .5 = 50 damage, which is 10 lower than before.

For this math to work, I am making a huge assumption that there are no enemies with skills that lower armor vs. elemental damage.

EDIT: Of course, using Elemental Resistance means you skip out on the 2 energy per hit, so this should probably be used by anyone who's not gonna need a heck of a lot of energy management like the SS. Also, because Resistance gives +40AR flat regardless of the level of Inspiration Magic, one can put more points into other attributes. Maybe Necros can mitigate the 2 energy per hit for more Soul Reaping.

4rch4ng31 · Dec 04, 2006, 06:15 PM // 18:15

For an improvement to the overall build, I would recommend replacing Shadow of Fear with an energy drainer like Spirit Shackles, or a skill thief like Arcane Thievery or Arcane Larceny. The fewer overpowered spells those Eles can cast, the better.

LoKi Foxfire · Dec 04, 2006, 06:19 PM // 18:19

I've updated the build again. I beat the city using a build somewhat similar to the old one I posted but I've edited the original post to include the improvements. I dropped the bonder for a spirit spammer Ritualist... the combo of Displacement, Union, and Shelter allowed us to live WITHOUT a protection monk. We even beat it with only 6 people and no monk using some good old know-how:

Dr Ripley · Dec 05, 2006, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoKi Foxfire

I've updated the build again. I beat the city using a build somewhat similar to the old one I posted but I've edited the original post to include the improvements. I dropped the bonder for a spirit spammer Ritualist... the combo of Displacement, Union, and Shelter allowed us to live WITHOUT a protection monk. We even beat it with only 6 people and no monk using some good old know-how

Nice. I might actually have a reason now to push my Rt through NF. Do you know what elite the spirit spammer brought by chance?

trialist · Dec 05, 2006, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoKi Foxfire

2 E/Me
[Searing Flames]
Fire Magic: 12 + 3 + 1 (runes again)
Energy Storage: 10 + 1
Inspiration: 8

Skills:

Searing Flames
Liquid Flame
Meteor Shower (I usually bring this with on mine but it's up to you)
Fireball
Mantra of Frost
Fire Attunement
Glyph of Lesser Energy
Sunspear Signet

Not sure if it is because you edited your post, but SF eles without glowing gaze? They didn't have energy problems with your posted built? Without Glowing Gaze, you dry up pretty fast if spamming Searing Flames.

Eclair · Dec 05, 2006, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Ripley

Nice. I might actually have a reason now to push my Rt through NF. Do you know what elite the spirit spammer brought by chance?

I believe the Ritual spamming elite of choice is now Soul Twisting.

4rch4ng31 · Dec 05, 2006, 02:29 AM // 02:29

For anyone who wants to BiP through the city, I did for my party. An elementalist and I both had Backfire thrown in there to help with the monks. It really paid off on the groups with two Anur Ki's in them, and it also helped a lot against the Dervishes. Here's my build:

Blood Magic 9 + 3 + 1
Soul Reaping 8 + 1
Inspiration Magic 10
Domination Magic 9

Blood Is Power
Blood Ritual
Blood Renewal
Demonic Flesh
Lightbringer's Gaze
Backfire
Mantra of Frost
Sunspear Rebirth Signet

Armor: Cabalist's armor with Superior Vigor, Superior Blood Magic, Minor Soul Reaping runes, and Blood Magic Headgear.

Weapon: Kyril's Fervor (Blood staff, Hale + 30, Enchanting + 20%)

It's played like a basic BiP build, though you will need more healing than normal due to the lack of any powerful self-heal (no Monk secondary, no Soul Feast, etc.). Demonic Flesh is in there mostly to help ease off some of that huge damage those Margonite mobs do should you get hit, which you shouldn't except by Jadoth's special skill.

If you don't need Backfire I would recommend 11+1+1 Blood Magic (so BiP gets its maximum regen with as many leftover AP and max HP as possible) and more into Inspiration.

We did it with 3 Nukers, 1 Tank, 1 Ranger, 1 BiP, 1 Heal, and 1 Bonder. We ran out of res sigs an hour or two into the mission so the rest was living heck as we preserved our monks.

LoKi Foxfire · Dec 05, 2006, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by trialist

Not sure if it is because you edited your post, but SF eles without glowing gaze? They didn't have energy problems with your posted built? Without Glowing Gaze, you dry up pretty fast if spamming Searing Flames.

I've only run as a Ranger in these groups so I don't know the exact specifics of what everyone uses. (My ele is still in Factions XD) It's only a general guideline for what your build should look like for players who aren't too familiar with cookie cutter builds. I've edited it though.

Flowah · Dec 05, 2006, 05:48 AM // 05:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bel

Lets see if I understood this right...

You use Spiteful Spirit on the target and then cast Reckless haste (+25% attack speed, -XX% chance to miss) to cause more damage. Now if you would also throw in a Shadow of Fear (-50% attack speed) what good would that do? Hmm Spiteful still damages through misses though.

You dont understand at all. Original quote said that both skills are counterproductive. RH is totally good for SS. And that's the only part I attacked. Reading skills imo.

Nine Soul · Dec 05, 2006, 06:11 AM // 06:11

Stackable effects. You end up getting mobs attacking at -25% speed, with -XX% chance to miss. So it's a win-win situation for you. They both attack less and miss more. Can't see how that's a bad thing.

ogami_ito · Dec 05, 2006, 08:45 AM // 08:45

Op mentioned he did this with a Derv tank. Can Op post stat/spec?

LoKi Foxfire · Dec 05, 2006, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogami_ito

Op mentioned he did this with a Derv tank. Can Op post stat/spec?

I wish I had written down what skills he was using but I was too busy making sure I kept spirits alive and such. I know for sure he used Avatar of Balthazar, Mystic Healing, and other skills. Other than that I don't remember. If I can get in touch with him again, I'll give you a better idea of what he had.

4rch4ng31 · Dec 06, 2006, 07:08 AM // 07:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nine Soul

Stackable effects. You end up getting mobs attacking at -25% speed, with -XX% chance to miss. So it's a win-win situation for you. They both attack less and miss more. Can't see how that's a bad thing.

It's a bad thing because SS relies on them attacking. The faster they attack, the faster they damage themselves and everyone around them. Cutting their attack speed in half means cutting the Necro's DPS in half.

gabrial heart · Dec 06, 2006, 03:01 PM // 15:01

If your going to run a SoF and Reckless to lower output of the physical mobs, then you can always run spoil victor to damage the casters. But in general running both and ss is a complete waste of the elite.

LoKi Foxfire · Dec 06, 2006, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabrial heart

If your going to run a SoF and Reckless to lower output of the physical mobs, then you can always run spoil victor to damage the casters. But in general running both and ss is a complete waste of the elite.

Well, what Syria has said before is that if you use SoF, you save Reckless Haste and SS for the casters and use SoF on the melee to keep their damage down. Otherwise you can drop SoF for Suffering or some AoE hex.

Carth` · Dec 06, 2006, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carth`

I think you should forget about the idea of a tank. It is becoming less and less useful in PvE, and in DoA especially, is really quite useless.

Here's an example from DoA earlier:
We wanted the tank to get all aggro on him. A year ago this would have been easy. Aggro was very easy to manage. Not any more with the crazy AI.

We put a prot spirit and Spellbreaker etc on him, and he ran off, lured a group closer, and attacked it. The rest of the party was TWO aggro circles behind. The guys wielding hammers ran straight past the tank without even attacking him once, and went straight for the squishiest character. Wtf? Indeed, everything just ran straight past the tank and attacked the weak members of the party, even though we were well out of radar range and hadn't started to attack or cast spells yet.

OK on a related note to that, here's another story to show how ridiculous the AI is.

I was with a group of henchmen and wanted Margrid the Sly to capture a lion with Charm Animal. I sent the henchmen a long way back with a flag (because I don't want them to attack the lion.. they have to be a long way away not to attack even when flagged). I set Margrid's flag close to me, set her target to the lion and told her to use Comfort Animal. She starts charming it and it goes red. Normally animals being charmed attack the person charming them, but it ran straight past Margrid, completely ignored her, to attack Mhenlo. The level 5 lion thought to take out the monk first that wasn't even healing anyone and was over 2 aggro circles away? By the time the lion actually reached Mhenlo it was charmed anyway, but I still think it is stupid that the AI has this omniscient manner that makes aggro hard to manage.