Curse

scamPOR · Dec 18, 2006, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Free greens are better then no greens yes? also you each get one so thats better then 1 person getting them all right? I think even if the skins are ALL awful at least 1-2 of them should be decent. Just some thoughts.

Zinger314 · Dec 18, 2006, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by scamPOR

Free greens are better then no greens yes? also you each get one so thats better then 1 person getting them all right? I think even if the skins are ALL awful at least 1-2 of them should be decent. Just some thoughts.

FREE?!

I would call beating the most difficult enemy IN THE ENTIRE FREAKING GAME something that isn't "free."

Mesmer in Need · Dec 18, 2006, 05:40 AM // 05:40

malyx should drop a green fellblade, crystalin, or orr staff or something like that.

-.- · Dec 18, 2006, 06:04 AM // 06:04

No, he should drop an unique skin or Torment Skin.

scamPOR · Dec 18, 2006, 06:12 AM // 06:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

FREE?!

I would call beating the most difficult enemy IN THE ENTIRE FREAKING GAME something that isn't "free."

Fine but not all of the super bosses drop greens. Shiro doesn't or Abbadon. True they set the precident, but have you even seen all of the greens he drops? So far I've seen 3... 8 people each get 1 and I'd assume they are all unique so that is 8 greens. So we have seen 3 / 8. Beating the 4 horseman quest in UW is pretty freaking hard and you do not get anything except some XP from it.

I don't consider Kanaxai's items that desirable, but that doesn't mean that the people paying 500k+ that first week didn't want them.

So yes they are FREE items. They could very easily have had him drop 1 item... and I bet more people would bitch about killing the hardest boss in the game and only 1 person got an item. They can't please everyone... Personally if the whole journey wasn't so retardedly long I'd even risk saying they picked the right way to reward you.

At least you are going to get a green. Unlike say Urgoz where out of 12 people, 1 person can get ALL THREE! Yes, I've seen it happen.

fripple · Dec 18, 2006, 07:43 AM // 07:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by scamPOR

Fine but not all of the super bosses drop greens. Shiro doesn't or Abbadon.

Um, Shiro and Abaddon both give you an item that can be exchanged for one of a variety of unique greens.

anima1991 · Dec 18, 2006, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Fripple, not after each kill they don't.

Gore · Dec 18, 2006, 12:53 PM // 12:53

So all party open the chest and get a green right ?

Or maybe it drop with your name ?

Also..all chill with the cheap greens, greens are only a way of buying cheap and seling high..like I did with tombs where itused to be an impossible place to clear till we Bped it in 26 minutes all done.

The eal deal are the tourmented as I heard the Shield are animated etc.

Lets make a crap load of plats both with the new CC for Xmas,greens and most of all the 2 Years old gift that some of us will get in a few months.

Chill, have fun, be in peace with the game...Im sure more is to come.

Effendi Westland · Dec 18, 2006, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by [riVen]

Actually, Anet fails at making challenging missions/areas, so what do is make gimmicky bullshit like this. Just like Urgoz/The Deep. "Hey guys, let's make an area full of level 28 margonites with level 24 attributes that hit for 500 AoE damage hahaha! Oh and while we're at it, let's add some retarded zone effects too... wheeeeeeee."

Fissure and UW... No gimmicky bullshit, and challenging for a long time. And STILL fun to play. In fact, without using post-Prophecies professions, UW still requires some organization to clear.

Edit: And the more gimmicky you make a place, the more limiting your option of professions and builds you can bring becomes -- as evidenced by Urgoz and The Deep, and now all over again in DoA. You can take *any* profession to Fis/UW without *any* problems. A badly organized group will fail whatever the group formation may be, a well organized group will always prevail.

Mallyx is NOT a worthy foe. There's nothing worthy about creating a guy with some uber skills that we don't have, having him hit for 600 damage and putting him in an area with some bs zone effects. Anet is forcing us to come up with EXTREMELY specific builds to stand a chance against him, many people will be left out once again.

Do I remember Anet calling this a "compelling mission"? Hah, plowing through 17 waves of lv28 mobs *yawn* and then facing this guy... compelling? What a joke.

(Oh and before people start claiming that I'm writing this becuase I probably just can't beat this myself or something... Me and my guild were one of the first to have finished the 4 areas, without much problems and much faster than it takes most groups to clear an area.)

Quoted for how I feel about it.

That those who said that the area wasn't designed for those complaining about it are now complaining about the rewards is ironic. Maybe the area wasn't designed for you either.

aohige · Dec 18, 2006, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effendi Westland

Quoted for how I feel about it.

That those who said that the area wasn't designed for those complaining about it are now complaining about the rewards is ironic. Maybe the area wasn't designed for you either.

Actually, go back and look through the names again.
Those who are complaining, are mostly the same people who were complaining about every aspect of DoA, and said "it's not worth trying anyways" and gave up.

So no, it's the same set of people complaining.
That's all I have to say.

fripple · Dec 18, 2006, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by anima1991

Fripple, not after each kill they don't.

No kidding. However 1) you can do it with each character, and 2) Shiro and Abaddon are both encountered in the normal progress of the game. They are not even remotely comparable to Mallyx in difficulty. My point was that these guys gave you access to a ton of stuff that wasn't available in the regular part of the game. Mallyx does not.

Burst Cancel · Dec 18, 2006, 06:15 PM // 18:15

FoW and UW aren't challenging anymore, and if they were challenging initially it's only because - you guessed it - the enemies did more damage than normal Prophecies monsters.

As for Mallyx being very 'gimmicky' - how are you going to make any single enemy strong enough to be a challenge to 8 players without using overpowered monster skills and other gimmicks?

There are ways to make the game more challenging without making monsters overpowered, but it has been tried before and the players weren't happy. The first way is to significantly improve the AI - ignore high-armor targets and go straight for the squishies, spread out immediately under any kind of aoe damage, kite melee attackers, don't cast through backfire, etc. The second way is to give monster groups real team builds. Imagine an area where every team you fought was some flavor of GvG or HA build - first group you run into is a condition overload team, the second is an obsidian flame spike team, third is thumpers and searing flames, fourth is necrospike, fifth is monk signet spike, sixth is ... But not even that - imagine a team of ten lvl24 esurge dom mesmers. Or ten b/p rangers. Or ten searing flames eles.

If you want to increase difficulty in an area, there are a strictly limited number of ways to do it. You can give the monsters a numerical advantage of some kind; either they do more damage, they are higher level, there are more of them, etc. You can use a gimmick like environmental effects or overpowered monster skills (Glint, Shiro, Mallyx, etc.). You can improve the AI (zomg aoe nerf!?! zomg no aggro management!?!) or monster builds (zomg PvP teams in PvE?!?). Which of these options would you prefer? Given the response from the GW community, the current answer is "None of them - we just want easy green items to farm!"

[riVen] · Dec 18, 2006, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

FoW and UW aren't challenging anymore, and if they were challenging initially it's only because - you guessed it - the enemies did more damage than normal Prophecies monsters.

Actually, they don't really deal more damage than, say, the mobs in the Ring of Fire islands. They have a better skillset and team formation, and probably a better AI too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

As for Mallyx being very 'gimmicky' - how are you going to make any single enemy strong enough to be a challenge to 8 players without using overpowered monster skills and other gimmicks?

Simple, by not having just a single enemy to fight. Or the way they made Abaddon, he's not overpowered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

There are ways to make the game more challenging without making monsters overpowered, but it has been tried before and the players weren't happy. The first way is to significantly improve the AI - ignore high-armor targets and go straight for the squishies, spread out immediately under any kind of aoe damage, kite melee attackers, don't cast through backfire, etc. The second way is to give monster groups real team builds. Imagine an area where every team you fought was some flavor of GvG or HA build - first group you run into is a condition overload team, the second is an obsidian flame spike team, third is thumpers and searing flames, fourth is necrospike, fifth is monk signet spike, sixth is ... But not even that - imagine a team of ten lvl24 esurge dom mesmers. Or ten b/p rangers. Or ten searing flames eles.

If you want to increase difficulty in an area, there are a strictly limited number of ways to do it. You can give the monsters a numerical advantage of some kind; either they do more damage, they are higher level, there are more of them, etc. You can use a gimmick like environmental effects or overpowered monster skills (Glint, Shiro, Mallyx, etc.). You can improve the AI (zomg aoe nerf!?! zomg no aggro management!?!) or monster builds (zomg PvP teams in PvE?!?). Which of these options would you prefer? Given the response from the GW community, the current answer is "None of them - we just want easy green items to farm!"

Let's be honest, if you had to pick between making an area more challenging by either making everything gimmicky, or by giving the mobs really good AI and team builds, everyone would choose the latter. Anet apparently has chosen for the former, because it is cheap to create. They have proven however, that that can do it the proper way with FoW/UW.

They could easily expand on that when making new areas... impove AI further, give mobs "professional" skillbars and team builds, use the environment (patrol shemes like in part of FoW, etc), and the things you mentioned (don't cast/attack through BF/SS etc). Those that just want easy to farm greens can stick to the normal game, those that like a fair challenge can go to the endgame areas. Ofcourse, this also requires there to be a worthwile reward, other than the challenge of beating it.

Bottom line is, Anet apparently can't be bothered to put any effort in their creations anymore. Gimmicks are cheap and easy, but the community won't take this much longer.

buy and die · Dec 18, 2006, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by [riVen]

Bottom line is, Anet apparently can't be bothered to put any effort in their creations anymore. Gimmicks are cheap and easy, but the community won't take this much longer.

Cant say I like you but you speak the sad truth.

Gli · Dec 18, 2006, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Amen!

I also think it's pretty sad that the final mission, defeating Abaddon, is just a slight variation on a Sorrow's Furnace quest. (Which was free, over a year old content by the time Nightfall hit the stores!)

Burst Cancel · Dec 18, 2006, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by [riVen]

Actually, they don't really deal more damage than, say, the mobs in the Ring of Fire islands. They have a better skillset and team formation, and probably a better AI too.

Really? Skeletal Berserkers use ViM as their elite. Shadow Elementals don't even have an elite. Abyssals have 3 skills, and only one of them is actually any good. And can we claim that Bladed Aatxes are hard because of their skillbar and ignore the fact that they do 300+ damage vs. 60AL?

And again, neither of these areas maintained their challenge for very long.

Quote:

Originally Posted by [riVen]

Simple, by not having just a single enemy to fight. Or the way they made Abaddon, he's not overpowered.

Abaddon isn't at all challenging, so it doesn't answer my question in the first place, and you'll notice that they use a gimmick in that fight also, so it isn't even a good example. Anet clearly wants you to fight a single enemy at the end of the Mallyx quest. So, again, how do you make a challenging single boss enemy without resorting to gimmicks?

Quote:

Originally Posted by [riVen]

Let's be honest, if you had to pick between making an area more challenging by either making everything gimmicky, or by giving the mobs really good AI and team builds, everyone would choose the latter. Anet apparently has chosen for the former, because it is cheap to create. They have proven however, that that can do it the proper way with FoW/UW.

I'm certain you remember the uproar from the elementalist community when the aoe nerf came down. Imagine if it was extended to any kind of aoe attack, including things like SS and Searing Flames. Do you remember the complaints when Nightfall was first released, where enemies went directly for the lower-AI targets and ignored the tanks? Where monk enemies kited for huge distances? Where aggro management was essentially impossible? People weren't having fun then either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by [riVen]

Bottom line is, Anet apparently can't be bothered to put any effort in their creations anymore. Gimmicks are cheap and easy, but the community won't take this much longer.

Anet has tried it, and got nothing but negative responses.

Do you honestly think it's that hard to fill an area with teams of 10 dom mesmers? How much fun do you think you'd have killing groups that have 30 different interrupts and aoe-damage? How about b/p ranger teams with distracting and savage shot? Maybe throw in a choking gas, an orders necro, and a few monks with RC and Divert Hexes. Imagine 15 groups in an area, all like that. Imagine these groups ignoring your tanks and going straight for your backline. Imagine these groups spreading out from aoe damage, removing SS, stripping your prots, and in general playing the way good players would play. It would be a hell of a lot worse than 15 groups of Stygian touch necros, that's for sure.

What kind of response do you think Anet would get?

Wrynn · Dec 18, 2006, 08:23 PM // 20:23

My problem with the whole of DoA is this: its gimmick vs. gimmick.
True: FoW / UW arent exactly SUPER ZOMGWTF hard anymore, but as someone mentioned, it doesnt take "Forming Team Build X for Y zone"
It takes a group of competant people, thats it. Everyone says the challenge is gone from FoW, well, yeah, it is, because YOU are playing with competant seasoned people who know how to use the skills at their disposal, or have been there so many times as to know whats coming, and plan your bar accordingly. With tomb ruins and now DoA, and Urgoz/Deep, theres less of a "Competance with any build" factor. You build a team for the mission, with very minor variants, if you want to win, you pretty much use that build.
Rather tedious and boring IMO.

Why dont they make something ala FoW/UW? Maybe Melandru's Forest?
ANet claims that "you dont need to purchase expansions to keep enjoying the game" Yet they pretty much leave anyone who doesnt have the latest and greatest out hanging.
My idea in simple form: Give us foes that, at the very least, have a synergizing skill bar, and if we can double class, and synergize skills from our secondary, wouldnt it be concievable that SOME monsters could too?
You finally gave selected foes a rez sig... wow...
Why not make mobs that SYNERGIZE with each other for once?
Or give monsters more than 3-4 skills on their bar?
AI monks that know how to actually HEAL against dmg? (<--this is a minor problem as the AI cant seem to really grasp energy management, nor do they comprehend "spamming")
Thats what Id like to see, a zone where ANY class could concievably be used to great effect with the right player behind it facing monsters that ACTUALLY HAVE A VIABLE SKILL BAR (ie: one that a HUMAN player may concievably be used)
This would also give a secondary effect to possibly showing people skill combinations that work well together (ala Sever gash sunmoon DSlash)

Or do people just want the "Realm of all good drops for me so i make all the money and my group is left hanging" Where everything drops green items, perfect gold items, ectos, shards, rubies, sapphires, and multiple plat per kill, so long as the drops are only for me.

Theres a reason so many pvpers have this level of revile for pve. Its stagnant. What works in one area, will more than likely work in another area, and its the SAME THING over and over again, what worked once, will work again, and again, and again. I can rattle off strats for THK, FoW, UW, etc, by heart, simply because I did them so much, and its the same thing now, as it was a year ago.

More on topic: As far as DoA being to weapons, as FoW is to armor. I find fault in this. I cant trade / sell my FoW armors away. FoW well, WAS a status symbol for the few who put forth the effort (or the credit card) to acquire it. Granted, the weapon skins arent to my liking, but ANet cannot possibly please everyone all the time, I realise this, but what about some variable skin thing, and pick your mods? (youd have to exclude the super rares ie: tyrian sickle, crystalline, dwarven, etc) Then you could get that gold, inscribable item (pre customized for you, of course) with whatever mods you wanted, with the skin of your choosing? (Think of it like a perfect green item just for you)

This, IMO, would up the percieved value of doing things like DoA, knowing that, at the end, I could get a cool item with stats I chose, and the skins I like, would actually pique my interest into doing it.

As it stands, Ill stick to gvg.

[riVen] · Dec 18, 2006, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

I'm certain you remember the uproar from the elementalist community when the aoe nerf came down.

Ofcourse people cried about that at first. The community generally cries about any game/skill balance. I think by now we all agree that that first AoE "nerf" was a good thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Imagine if it was extended to any kind of aoe attack, including things like SS and Searing Flames.

SS and similar skills should've been part of that "nerf", or at least mobs should stop attacking/casting through it after taking too much damage from it (pretty much what the NF AoE balance did for AoE skills). This way it can be used partly as damage source, and partly as shutdown. Much more realistic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Do you remember the complaints when Nightfall was first released, where enemies went directly for the lower-AI targets and ignored the tanks? Where monk enemies kited for huge distances? Where aggro management was essentially impossible? People weren't having fun then either.

Agreed, but that combined PvP-style mobs with >lv20 mobs in numbers larger than your party size. Can't have both if you wanna keep things fun and fair. Either you choose to have mobs that act PvP-style, and have a max of 8 lv20's facing you, OR you choose to have mobs that are more powerful and come in larger numbers, but don't use PvP tactics. Oh and by the way, just because it's PvE, doesn't mean that you shouldn't have to bring a snare, and doesn't mean unrealistic to have mobs go for lower AL targets. There would be no problem at all with that if they weren't all level 24/28 mobs in party sizes up to 12.

In my opinion, having a mob hack in on a buffed up tank while they take SS and Searing Flames and what not in the ass, is no fun at all. For those that do like this, there's plenty of real hack 'n slash MMOs out there, GW was never designed to be like that.

And for those that got disgusted when I mentioned PvP tactics in PvE... PvE will always be PvE, for the simple fact that human players are always smarter and, most importantly, you KNOW what you're gonna face once you've been to an area. It would simply make it more challenging and therefore more fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Anet has tried it, and got nothing but negative responses.

Do you honestly think it's that hard to fill an area with teams of 10 dom mesmers? How much fun do you think you'd have killing groups that have 30 different interrupts and aoe-damage? How about b/p ranger teams with distracting and savage shot? Maybe throw in a choking gas, an orders necro, and a few monks with RC and Divert Hexes. Imagine 15 groups in an area, all like that. Imagine these groups ignoring your tanks and going straight for your backline. Imagine these groups spreading out from aoe damage, removing SS, stripping your prots, and in general playing the way good players would play. It would be a hell of a lot worse than 15 groups of Stygian touch necros, that's for sure.

What kind of response do you think Anet would get?

As per what I wrote above, no, it would not be worse than groups of Stygian touch necros.

maraxusofk · Dec 18, 2006, 08:41 PM // 20:41

the ele community cried about the aoe nerf all the way until nf came out. why? searing flames

Dark Divinor · Dec 18, 2006, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Hmm, the spirits seem a way forward and with Razah obtainable (even if it is really hard) he'll probably be a key factor in taking Mallyx down. If we can blind him and interrupt him for a fair amount of time, wont he/it be rendered useless? I'm not even there yet, I'm just throwing ideas out.