Curse

Gli · Apr 04, 2007, 03:46 PM // 15:46

What it boils down to, DoA is a crap area for casual players or roleplayers.

The difficulty leaves no room for experimentation unless you have a dedicated team of people who all have a ridiculous amount of hours to spend playing continuously and who have a high tolerance for frustration.

If you have such a team, all you'll come up with in the end is just another build that leaves little room for variation, with its own particular silly AI exploitation requirements.

Lacking that, all that's left is copying a cookie-cutter build and going through the motions, occasionally laughing your ass off at the poor noobs who haven't yet figured out this ugly truth.

Caoimhe · Apr 04, 2007, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Maybe I'm just a poor noob, but I have to believe that everyone's not like that. I'm not; I can't be the only one who isn't.

jjtrasher · Apr 04, 2007, 03:56 PM // 15:56

lol, they only use the holy trinity cause its what works

ss1986v2 · Apr 04, 2007, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caoimhe

Maybe I'm just a poor noob, but I have to believe that everyone's not like that. I'm not; I can't be the only one who isn't.

some arent. in fact, id bet the majority of the community isnt. but just the idea of DoA creates a vicious cycle:

joe mesmer thinks "no one plays DoA casually, so i wont even go there." joe rit, joe sin, and joe para all think and do the same thing. so now when joe derv does go there, no one is there to play it for fun. so he never goes back because he thinks "no one plays DoA casually, so i wont even go there." repeat.

if everyone who really wanted to play DoA casually actually showed up in force, the districts would be packed with mesmers, rits, sins, paras, derv, and even monks, wars, eles, and necros who want to just roll it for fun. but they dont, so its impossible to get it done.

Caith-Avar · Apr 04, 2007, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caoimhe

what makes GW fun is a few things: It's a beautiful game, I've found some really neat people all over the GW world, and I like earning what I can get. But I get you. What works for me isn't what works for others. I see folks talking about their bank accounts being greater than Ascalon's Treasury (pre-searing) and wonder what it's like to do the same thing over and over again. I don't think in the 20 months I've been playing that I've ever had more than 60K in storage.

It's about the same for me, though I usually am around 100 k... except that one time, when I auctioned that axe that had dropped from a level 11 grasping ghoul during the undead hordes quest in beetletun for 375 k... it wasn't my axe, and the person who had given it to me for auction chose to split up the money evenly... but there, I had some 400 k in storage for a day or so.
I'm not a farmer. If I'd want to go farming in a game, I'd play Harvest Moon.
(Occasionally "farming" 5 hydra claws/carpaces/heket tongues/whatever for a collectors weapon for a friend or new character doesn't count as "farming" here, I think)

Well, the only thing that helps against the holy trinity is a bunch of good friends in a guild and/or alliance and the luck to meet one or two like-minded more in the respective outposts. Then you can do those things with a different set of characters. Like doing UW2 with 2 Mesmers, 2 Warriors, 1 Necro (neither MM, nor Order, nor BiP), 1 Ranger Hench and 2 Monk Henchs in a time when every team HAD TO be 4-5 B/P Rangers, 1 Order Necro, 1 MM and 1-2 Healer Monks.
Takes longer, is maybe less profitable, but can be HUGE fun. Which is that I don't doubt that rocking an area with the trinity is. Having 20-something foes perish at the same time behind a wall of warriors, pummeled to death by multiple Meteor Storms is a nice view... but... I like playing my mesmer far too much. And, if I have the choice, I'd prefer the probably more-death-including, more-times-try-starting variant of a team that is made up out of people playing the class they like most, and, if possible, the build for that class they like most.

But it's experiences like standing at UW2, looking for a team, or like someone inviting himself into our (then 2-man-guild-)team and instantaneously saying: "Kick the mesmer" that make me play almost solely with guildies. Why should I bother to talk people with a into accepting me, just to be forced to "prove" something to them afterwards? It's not like I wouldn't be the one that messed everything up if it fails, even if it wasn't me who caused the wipe anyhow. My guildmates know me, they know what I can do, what I'm best at, what I can't do. We always find some way to go. I guess I haven't disappointed the people I have played with on PuGs (rare occasions) either...

So... enough said. I belong to the adventurous, (self-)experience seeking, but less efficient, others belong to the industrious, efficiency-seeking, but maybe less open-minded. I'd say "To each his own", but that has... well... a really bad association for me that I sadly cannot reveal as it would start to invoke fulfillment of Godwins Law almost immediately.

ss1986v2 is right, though. Presence would be a solution. I have my guild to rely on, here. We all usually have an evening with 6-8 hours time to spend every now and then, and then we do such stuff. But maybe the non-trinity players should sort of... form like a network... or something?

TheDarkOneVK · Apr 04, 2007, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by ss1986v2

some arent. in fact, id bet the majority of the community isnt. but just the idea of DoA creates a vicious cycle:

joe mesmer thinks "no one plays DoA casually, so i wont even go there." joe rit, joe sin, and joe para all think and do the same thing. so now when joe derv does go there, no one is there to play it for fun. so he never goes back because he thinks "no one plays DoA casually, so i wont even go there." repeat.

if everyone who really wanted to play DoA casually actually showed up in force, the districts would be packed with mesmers, rits, sins, paras, derv, and even monks, wars, eles, and necros who want to just roll it for fun. but they dont, so its impossible to get it done.

You're right on with that. Part of the problem is lack of necessity (or at least obvious necessity) for the other more defined classes. People see "ok we need something to tank damage, we'll roll a warrior, now we need something to deal damage, we'll roll some eles, now we need something to heal us, we'll roll monks, now we need something to keep energy up, we'll roll a BiP necro". These builds deal with 3 things: Health, Energy, and Damage. The more subtle aspects of pressure, control, spiking, all that stuff that is less concrete doesn't get applied, and the defined roles get tossed out as a result.

The solution? ANET needs to adjust these areas so that there is an obvious NEED for such things. There may already be a role for mesmers in DoA that people just haven't seen yet, but they probably won't ever see that role because they just flatten the enemies with elementalists and move on. Maybe add enemies with special enchantments that need to be removed in order to combat them effectively? Or add enemies that punish YOUR team for using enchantments, making a paragon's shouts or a ritualists defensive spirits more viable. Heck, maybe even add some enemies with a high resistance to a particular damage type (say fire?) so that damage types need to be varied.

Basically, a lot of this could be fixed by elite areas where the enemies consist of more than just hard hitting baddies with tons of health.

ChaoticCoyote · Apr 04, 2007, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by runeseeker1

What is up with DoA? So far, all that are allowed into the elitist groups are the so called "holy trinity": ele, monk, and warrior. The only other profession allowed in is the necro, and they can only play a BiP build! Really, the place is starting to be like HA, with people demanding that you have Lightbringer 3+ (like fame) or being a certain profession. A Dervish, Paragon, Ranger, Mesmer, Ritualist or Assassin isn't seen for miles. And if a Dervish is allowed into a group, he must be D/E or he's trash, because obviously the only way a Dervish can tank is with Obsidian Flesh. (btw, I'm talking about Dervishes because that's what I play)

Feel free to add on to this rant if you want... or something. What I want to know is why I can't get an Anguish Gemstone set without having to buy one. I don't want to farm solo; I want to be able to kill Mallyx and all that. And btw, don't tell me to make another char because I am NOT willing to play campaigns over and over again.

Don't blame the players -- blame ANet's design for DoA. The very nature of DoA requires a focus on spike damage and healing; if you want to win those areas, you need the holy trinity.

Most of class prejudice is based on area design, frustrating as that may be. Most end-game areas end up the same way -- specific combinations of classes have proven success, and balanced groups simply need not apply.

Much as I love ANet's work, this is one area where they have really failed the player base. End-game areas should be designed for balanced groups.

ss1986v2 · Apr 04, 2007, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote

Don't blame the players -- blame ANet's design for DoA. The very nature of DoA requires a focus on spike damage and healing; if you want to win those areas, you need the holy trinity.

Most of class prejudice is based on area design, frustrating as that may be. Most end-game areas end up the same way -- specific combinations of classes have proven success, and balanced groups simply need not apply.

Much as I love ANet's work, this is one area where they have really failed the player base. End-game areas should be designed for balanced groups.

i think its less a specific mistake in the end game areas, and more the essence of pve itself. all of pve boils down to absorbing/negating dmg, healing dmg, and dealing dmg. any build, no matter if its balanced or gimmick, will have these elements or it will fail. you can bring other things to the table, but without these core things most builds wont work.

and these things almost perfectly mirror the trinity: warriors (with the help of prot monks) to absorb dmg, monks to heal dmg, eles to deal dmg. so its not just the end game areas, its all of pve. you can run any single mission in all of gw with just the trinity.

but thats not really the issue. just because you can do it with the trinity, does that mean you have to? the buck stops at the community. if you dont like the trinity, dont run it. dont blame anet for the decisions of the community. we are the ones who created this idea of "if it aint the trinity, its not worth using!" if anyone is to blame, its the community. we choose what classes to play, not anet.

Sir Skullcrasher · Apr 04, 2007, 05:51 PM // 17:51

DoA is there for those who has the time and effort to go through it. For regular to casual players, we tend to skip DoA.

Qual · Apr 04, 2007, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by ravensong

And thats the worst thing about GW...discrimination.

If GW2 will be like that im not playing....

That's the worse crap I have ever heard, get better and/or bring a monk to DoA. Then I wouldn't have to waste time reading your whine.
I won't miss you in GW 2 see ya...

HawkofStorms · Apr 04, 2007, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjtrasher

lol, they only use the holy trinity cause its what works

says a warrior with FoW armor in thier arvatar... *rolls eyes*

Anyway, there are plenty of variations that work. The D/E tank for example is a reliable varient build. A good curses necro or interupt ranger/mesmer is also a nice addition to any team. Furthermore, Rts are invaluable in fight mallyx since their weapon spells and spirits are one of the few sources of healing that Mallyx can not remove.

Sins kinda get shafted, but a smart sin who knows how to shadowstep in and out of a battle after performing his attack chain can still work.

Bryant Again · Apr 04, 2007, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qual

That's the worse crap I have ever heard, get better and/or bring a monk to DoA. Then I wouldn't have to waste time reading your whine.
I won't miss you in GW 2 see ya...

Wowwie! You sure assumed a lot there, didn't cha? Not to mention you're missing the whole point of this thread, and Ravensong's quote.

Qual · Apr 04, 2007, 06:16 PM // 18:16

or not my young friend. I'll bet you 100$ that ravensong is thinking of rank and prof. discrimination. But I fail to see the wrong thing about that sort of discrimination. Now that you are so wise, plz explain to me what he was saying, you said that I missed the point of his quote...

Gli · Apr 04, 2007, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qual

That's the worse crap I have ever heard, get better and/or bring a monk to DoA.

I have a monk at DoA. I brought her there especially to idle, chat with guildies, chill, etc. The constant blind invites, whispers, and subsequent retractions if I don't react, amuse me.

Dj Tano · Apr 04, 2007, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

People use the "holy trinity" because they're what works.

And i think that is exactly whats wrong with those areas in GW. If you design a place where only 3-4 of 10 Professions can go, then you cut out a big part of the community, and that is exactly what you dont want...

Ouchie · Apr 04, 2007, 06:30 PM // 18:30

I've seen other professions in DoA in groups. In fact there is a screen shot on these forums somewhere of an all Ranger team

Sir Skullcrasher · Apr 04, 2007, 06:32 PM // 18:32

This would be the perfect place for the Easy Button!

Arknow · Apr 04, 2007, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Quote:

And thats the worst thing about GW...discrimination.

If GW2 will be like that im not playing....

it will be, its every where and won't leave till the people who support it are gone

Quote:

for some, profit = fun

then get a job and leave the games to people who play them for the right reasonsthere is no profit in a video gameall that "gold" in your bank is worth excatley NOTHING

Quote:

That's the worse crap I have ever heard, get better and/or bring a monk to DoA. Then I wouldn't have to waste time reading your whine.
I won't miss you in GW 2 see ya...

and most of us wont miss the arrogant elitest mass of flesh that leave and let the people who bought the game for fun finally enjoy it

id go on and point out the obvious flaws in most peoples logic here but thats prolly enough to piss on a few post toasties as it is

ss1986v2 · Apr 04, 2007, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dj Tano

And i think that is exactly whats wrong with those areas in GW. If you design a place where only 3-4 of 10 Professions can go, then you cut out a big part of the community, and that is exactly what you dont want...

who said you that only those 3-4 classes were viable? you can run any of the ten professions in DoA, but the community chooses not to. you can replace the monks with rits, the warriors with dervs, and the eles with necros and mesmers and do just fine in DoA. the area doesnt force you to run the trinity.

again, its not the the design, its the community. if you want to run a non trinity class, then do it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arknow

then get a job and leave the games to people who play them for the right reasonsthere is no profit in a video gameall that "gold" in your bank is worth excatley NOTHING

no one said it was worth anything. i just pointed out that some people play the game to have these high end items. you cant claim that these thing were not intended to be obtained, because they are in the game. your definition of "playing a game" may differ from another's definition. that doesnt make yours right and their wrong. they are just different.

example: if someone plays a game from the GTA franchise only to enjoy the open ended gameplay, does that mean they are playing it wrong if they dont take full advantage of the missions? no. its their right to play the game as they see fit. it is a game after all.

Exoudeous · Apr 04, 2007, 06:48 PM // 18:48

No matter how well you ballance teh game end game areas always boil donw to one thing.

the harder they are the more efficent you have to be.

sure you could beat DoA with a balanced team with many diffrent classes, but you could also take twice as long to beat the area.

whihc is why tombs is mostly B/p now everyone only wants the few greens that are at the end and they want to get to them the fastest you can.

so be pissed at teh community for this theings, not anet. if you want to partake in such areas then find a good guild/alliance and party with them. thats what I do cause I cant stand pugs and havent used pugs since before factions