Curse

Quaker · Jun 21, 2007, 07:26 PM // 19:26

I think there are (as usual) many aspects to this. But first, let me say that overall, my experience with PUGs has been positive. There have been bad PUGs with all the bad things people mention, but the majority have been good.

Back when GW first started there was (of course) only one continent. There were more people doing more of the same things. Fewer people were in Guilds, so they PUG'd more. More people were trying to accomplish the same quests/missions, so when you went to a town/outpost, it was easier to form a PUG. More people in a town/outpost were at the same level.

Now, with three continents and more titles to shoot for, there are fewer people in each town/outpost. There is a much broader range of experience/levels in any particular town because some people are there to do quests/missions, some are there to 'map' an area, some to vanquish, some just to get Masters, etc. This makes forming a PUG harder/longer. Also, more people are in Guilds and Alliances, so it is easier to do things with people you know.

But, in the long run, I'd say that GW has become less of a MMORPG and more of a solo RPG with online cooperative mode.

Jedi Battousai · Jun 21, 2007, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpotJorge

...but then ANET created Hard Mode and all that falled down ... solo players with heros and henchs have few chances of do some missions and vanquish some areas .. so what can they do now? learn the game old fashion way or stay playing in playback mode normal mode

I solo or duoed all of hard mode (and filled the rest with hero/hench) except Gate of Madness (2 more wanted to tag along so we took them). PuGing is gone. Everyone with any sort of skill is already in a guild/alliance that does a lot of mission work or has a developed friend list to where they can easily get another one of their experienced friends and walk through anything with 2 sets of heroes.

SpotJorge · Jun 22, 2007, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jedi Battousai

I solo or duoed all of hard mode (and filled the rest with hero/hench) except Gate of Madness (2 more wanted to tag along so we took them). PuGing is gone. Everyone with any sort of skill is already in a guild/alliance that does a lot of mission work or has a developed friend list to where they can easily get another one of their experienced friends and walk through anything with 2 sets of heroes.

What i was saying is that players very used to play with heros and henchs usualy are weak on FULL human partie, because 80% of theyr sucess come from heros advantage abilitty to run the builds and cast auto the necessery skills.
about vanquish and missions theres many situations most of the players will have big problems to complete in HM only with heros and henchs, duoed its a diferent situation where you can use 6 heros + 2 players, heros do good in HM but henchs have some problems there

i dont have nothing against pugs i even myself many times do it solo with heros and henchs, but you should agree that its more fun when theres only humans on partie

... and i still say that GW was more fun when there was only humans and henchs, heros and the 10000000 tittles whe have to reach have nothing to do with RPG game, and are making people playing alone instead of look for parties, who is not in a good guild have lots fo problems to find a party to join

Pande · Jun 23, 2007, 09:01 AM // 09:01

In a 8man team VERY often i have failed many times missions easily completed after with master with my heroes and henc at teh first try...sometimes the straightforwarding stupidity of the bots is better than bad players... For this reason usually play with my guild/alliance or alone. Just in some situation looking for a good group in outpost is needed...

Calador Alaster · Jun 25, 2007, 01:58 PM // 13:58

I think the problem lies in the fact that the game is very do-able with heroes and henchies alone. No one will bother spending 10-20 minutes to call GLF or LFG when they could simply click a few times on the mouse and obtain the same, if not better, results. If the game was made harder that required players to adjust their playstyle, builds, or even come up with strategies that simpleton AIs cannot do, then PuGs would surely revive, and i would also think that it will boost the level of play for these PuGs

the_jos · Jun 25, 2007, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Quote:

If the game was made harder that required players to adjust their playstyle, builds, or even come up with strategies that simpleton AIs cannot do, then PuGs would surely revive, and i would also think that it will boost the level of play for these PuGs

I doubt that.
Looking at the way PuGs fail in missions like Hell's, it's not going to work.
You don't want people that cannot even reach the bonus guy to play more advanced tactics.

The reason H&H works is because they focus-fire on the target till it's not moving anymore.
They also have better timing of their skills (interrupt heroes and interrupt hench in cantha).
They also don't AFK and don't split (except when you order them).

SpotJorge · Jun 25, 2007, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

I doubt that.
Looking at the way PuGs fail in missions like Hell's, it's not going to work.
You don't want people that cannot even reach the bonus guy to play more advanced tactics.

The reason H&H works is because they focus-fire on the target till it's not moving anymore.
They also have better timing of their skills (interrupt heroes and interrupt hench in cantha).
They also don't AFK and don't split (except when you order them).

this reminds me a warrior in hells i joined to help do misison that was already with 2 healer hero monks (still asking to myself if he knew whats a prot), asked me to add 1 healer hero and when he showed his skill bar he was with mending and healing breeze ... then my conection droped (lucky me my dsl cable is near keyboard) so i could run out of there before mission started

Drakzel · Jun 25, 2007, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpotJorge

What i was saying is that players very used to play with heros and henchs usualy are weak on FULL human partie, because 80% of theyr sucess come from heros advantage abilitty to run the builds and cast auto the necessery skills.
about vanquish and missions theres many situations most of the players will have big problems to complete in HM only with heros and henchs, duoed its a diferent situation where you can use 6 heros + 2 players, heros do good in HM but henchs have some problems there

i dont have nothing against pugs i even myself many times do it solo with heros and henchs, but you should agree that its more fun when theres only humans on partie

... and i still say that GW was more fun when there was only humans and henchs, heros and the 10000000 tittles whe have to reach have nothing to do with RPG game, and are making people playing alone instead of look for parties, who is not in a good guild have lots fo problems to find a party to join

I fully agree, I miss the old tyria days when everyone was working towards the same ends and people actually knew how to work as a team. Henchmen were alright to fall back on but certain quests and definetly missions required cooperation from the group (back when you couldn't tell the npcs where to go) and the npcs weren't the best level for taking the enemies on, nor did they have the right skills to deal with them.

Ever since factions I knew the days of experienced newcomers had ended, getting to 20 before leaving an island. Being able to do it with henchmen eliminated the point in having to depend on others and learn to use your role to help your team. This got the idea in new people's head's that they were very talented at this game, so even in human groups they felt they were invincible and didn't have to do what their profession was best suited to do. Especially since 1-20 was possible in a days work, you can't fully learn a game when they hand you everything right from the start.

Not to talk down to heroes, I think they are a great addition, hell I can solo nearly everything since they came around, except for Aurora Glade, damn pedestal capping. But the addition also led to some of the prominent loners given the end all reason to never try and play with a real team. I was always a loner in MMO's until I got prophecies at release, it didn't allow me to run through everything with AI help so I actually learned the values of real teams.

Bottom line is, the beginning of the series left me with fun experiences and valuable information that made my desire to play last these 2 long years, but the people fresh off the boat in factions and nightfall will never be forced to experience it for themselves. They will prefer the easy old heroes with the stock builds that make everything so much easier to the teams of actual players.

Lord Natural · Jun 25, 2007, 04:47 PM // 16:47

I have to admit, some part of me gets nostalgic for those rare early Prophecy pugs which would power through what were once considered difficult areas. But now, with the remaining players spread over 3 continents and the introduction of heroes, it's just not worth the trouble of puging anymore in anything but elite-type areas. When H&H can complete most things quickly and easily (even a lot of hard mode), it makes a pug redundant. I also have to admit that when I do see players lfg in some missions now, a large part of me is thinking, if this guy is unable to H&H on his own, then I'd probably be worse off by dropping a hench and taking him. That's a poor attitude, as I'm sure there are still players who prefer to pug for the experience and not because they are unable to H&H, but NF sort of trains people to think that way.

LightsOut · Jun 25, 2007, 07:11 PM // 19:11

I'm going to have to agree with the view that Nightfall is very much more solo than Factions and Prophecies. I recently purchased NF, and not once have I been able to party with anyone from outside my guild, being D/R7 and P3. To be honest, I find the game harder and somewhat lonelier as it seems many players are less willing to help out or take notice of a LFP request than in Prophecies.

Obviously there are reasons for this, and as stated earlier, I believe this is because there are a lot more players doing a lot more different things!

Stupid Shizno · Jun 25, 2007, 07:36 PM // 19:36

its harder to hero/hench the endgame of nightfall compared to the other campgins, so id have to say its a double sided blade.

Zorgy · Jun 26, 2007, 11:20 AM // 11:20

I play GW since may 2005 & its my first "online game", I own the 3 stand alones & I completed them all with ONE character ONLY. This is my way of playing as I hate doing again & again the same mission (same for movies, I hate watching 2, 3 , 4 times the same one, like many friends do).

After two years spent on GW, I only bought one other game during that time....Oblivion, that I uninstalled after "dropping" Azura sword & closing 6 oblivion gates. I spent two years on Morrowind & Oblivion is a piece of crap with nice graphics besides its elder. My favorite games being rpg, thanks Anet to enable me save money

I playHM with heros & henchies or guildies cause its the only reliable way to succeed. But I have great memories of PUGS in FoW or UW, when only Proph was available. When the whole team rocked, and it often happened, behind my screen I could feel the huge pleasure, we all were experiencing.

Unfortunatelly this time is gone, cause the freshness of the game is gone. We know the tricks, & almost everybody is in it for the money LOL. Do u read the buy/sell topics? "players" farm & make biz : "bought that 5k & re-sold it 7k, total profit of my day Xk" this means some ppl dont play but make biz ONLY biz always biz.....what a fun.

Do you PUG in FoW now? how many leave after droping a shard?.....dozens.....

Do you PUG in The Deep? how many leave after 30 minutes? 2...3....& u warned them before starting mish, explaining that 2 hours were needed to complete the map !!! As a warrior if u dont have a cold dmg weapon u cannot join a team......sad....

I was able to PUG in Nightfall for the final quests cause I bought the game the FIRST day it was released & cause I played with my lvl20 Proph charac.

I solo smites in UW as w/rit cause I need $ to buy locks when i play NF HM......but soloing is so boring, no fun at all except when u drop an ecto or open a chest & u get a gold gloom shield, which occured ONCE for me.

When HM was implemented I re-started Proph missions with PUGS. But its so hard to find ppl now, u have to wait & to wait. I can do them with guildies but its boring to play with the same ppl again & again.

I am waitin for GWEN cause I know it will possible to PUG for a short time, so hurry up & dont miss it.

PUG is definitely the best way to explore a map & complete a mission. I always push ppl to have THE winning spirit & to think in a POSITIVE way, cause the more positive u are the more u increase your chances to win or to drop what u need/want

lazyrussian · Jun 26, 2007, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Heroes were a curse in disguise - I think that's the point of this topic.

I just made an assassin - I'[m making it my main character (no more monk

) - Anyway, I got my assassin to lvl 14, took it to NF, got heroes, then quickly and I mean in like 2 hours, got to lvl 18 soloing with heroes outside of kaneing.

But I do miss the PUG experience that I had in prophecies. I think if you still want that experience, the southern shiverpeaks, crystal desert, RoF Islands, and a few Farm Zones are the best place to find it.

Vagrant · Jun 26, 2007, 09:57 PM // 21:57

With heroes you can synergize. With PUG's, sometimes you find you may actually be thwarting your own teammates.

Wolydarg · Jun 27, 2007, 01:29 AM // 01:29

I think the cooperation part died when factions came out and there was suddenly an influx in terrible playings in the form of the assassin class. I'm sure many of you all remember the "look I'm a ninja I can teleport but I can't take damage" phase which led most pugs to see an assassin in factions and immediately disregard him/her. Add to this some henchies actually had roles such as interrupter, stance tank(well, prot defense on lukas counts, right?), or illusion mes, people are like "wtf, we don't need sins when we got talon and his silverwing". For me, that's when I stopped trying to get in groups with a sin and just started grabbing henchies since you couldn't finish a mission(or it was very hard to) with a group of 6 reject sins+healer henchies.

Phantom Gun · Jun 27, 2007, 03:29 AM // 03:29

Really it's a double edged sword. I used to feel the same way as you. However i'm very glad I have can use my heros when I need to. Usually for quests. I try to group with real players for missions.

For some people though it's not that much different from when only the first 2 games were available. A large portion of the GW popultion would not accept unique builds into their groups. You had to be a tank, MM, Nuker, or a monk. If you weren't then you would either end up henching it, or grouping up with other outcasts. *As a side note it's awesome when you get masters with a bunch of people that none of the "by the book" groups wanted*

So in a way I find heros a good thing. I mean I understand what you are saying, but they have come in handy. Especialy in situations like this..

Group looking for monks
Me: I don't even see any monks....
Me either. Group looking for monks
Me: /sigh
Group needs two monks
Me: Well I got 2 level 20 hero monks if you want me to bring those..
GLF Monks and we leave

*10 minutes later*

Ok yako grab your dunkoro
*Insert Name/Names Here* Sorry guys I gtg.
Group looking for more 4/8

Anyway you get the idea. Well that's been my experience. Can't say the same for everybody else. Groups are still possible in most areas, but it takes time, and a open mind when it comes to what proffesions you have in your group. I've been in several groups that by a popular vote, should of failed, but did really well. I've had complete disasters to, but that doesn't bother me. I enjoy having company when I play a game, and heros and henchies just don't cut it lol.

strcpy · Jun 27, 2007, 08:01 AM // 08:01

I do agree that the "problem" is Nightfall, yet I do not think it is heroes.

While there are some, few people suddenly decided to play a single player game once they came out that hadn't already decided it. People who enjoy human groups aren't going to hench/hero and people who hench it are not going to join human groups.

What has happened is that the player base has aged - few newer players and people are where they are happy. If you like humans you are in a guild and most likely an alliance - you play with them. If you AI, well, you have a better gaming experience. There are VERY few missions that are hard with the hench but simple with heroes - if you can do one you can do the other.

That leaves a very few people (compared to the rest) who really want to PUG and they are now spread over three campaigns. With one there *had* to be a concentration of them, with two you had choke points and fun missions, with three you just do not have the needed populace for even that. The only way heroes have impacted PUGS is that many will sit and try and fill up to 4 or 5 people and fill the rest with heroes.

When the campaigns are new PUGS are common - heck if you are one of the good players and stay out in front of the wave of "others" PUGS are even almost always great experiences (the ROT in Nightfall was a totally different place the first few weeks - it was...interesting to read local chat). But most of those people beat the game and leave - we are now far enough after the last release that mostly long term players are there. I generally expect GWEN to have another spurt of PUGs.

What killed PUGs are PUG's. Elitism and crappy players is the problem. You need to be a cookie cutter build and/or have a high rank in some title before a group will even *think* of taking you and then they aggro everything in sight and die. It also fragments the community further - I can not tell you how many times I notice well over 20 players in 5 or more different groups spamming "lfg" - well, why are you not forming them (usually <profession> sucks, have to have r9 SS, must have 15k armor, etc, etc)? You are going to most likely suck anyway, might as well form the group and maybe that r1 SS assassin has been playing for 2 years now and knows what they are doing - worst case scenario is that you get the normal PUG anyway.

The only time I PUG is when I have no real interest in beating a mission. That is not to say that I do not play to win - just that failure isn't frustrating. Both Vizunah Square and Unwaking Waters are great examples of this - when I just want to advance a character through the game they are hated enough I only bring characters through either one if there is a pressing reason too (titles or elite skills). If just goofing off the escapades are quite funny and enjoyable. However, when I just want to get to Raisu Palace to meet some friends with a particular class (who has not made it there yet) over an hour of the other team having no ranged damage characters and aggroing all the afflicted they can is an exercise in frustration - when goofing off it is fodder for making fun of people. Since I play games to have fun that normally means that I avoid PUGs at all costs.

nexus1614 · Jun 27, 2007, 01:29 PM // 13:29

I have just played NF for two hours straight ( i know not a lot) but I wanted to try PUGging masters on Ruins of Morah and Gate of Pain. I wasn't so bothered about Ruins of Morah, but I really wanted to get Gate of Pain done masters first time. This was with my mesmer, and for some reason I didn't have any didn't have much trouble finding a PUG for Morah, but they decided that they wouldn't listen to a word anyone said. Idiots. As you probably know, there are two easy ways to do it....not aggro the mobs xD. So I said everyone got res? Yes they all replied. So all was going well and we got to Commander Varesh and two other monsters. I was attacking the other monsters, leading with SS and empathy, as you do xD, but they decided to aggro varesh too, ignoring the monsters. My attempts at target calling were rebuffed, and so a more or less total party wipe. The people left didn't even have a res signet between them -.-.

Then it was the Gate of Pain.We set off and all things were looking good, we got over the bridge and stuff without much trouble. Then it got to the point where in the NE there is a Terrorweb Dryder, a mob of torment monsters and then two tortureweb dryders. The Monk torment monster was killed....then they decided to aggro the Terrorweb, just cos this dude can't control his Koss -.-So we were getting screwed. I saw that the necro torment creature was making loads of minions which were overwhelming us so naturally I assumed we should kill it. Ofc I was wrong -.- So we got totally wiped.

My conclusion? Take trusted guildies or alliance members, or else HnH it. I think that all three are single player but thats probably cos I got NF first and Proph last

Well99 · Jul 01, 2007, 01:28 PM // 13:28

The problem isnt Nf or heroes and hench.The problem was people in pugs.Between AFKers,rage quitters and I know everything people it got old.
You join a pug and you have 3 people out of group of six trying to lead people this way and that way.Too many I know everything people.If you were lucky enough to find a group that would actually work together it was great.But those pugs were rare.It was fun to play thru a mission where everyone work together.Just didnt happen enough.
As far as NF I completed the game with 2 chrs strictly H/H and have 3 others in ROT near the end with me only joining a pug once.Not that I am the lone ranger.Alot of folks have done the same.If your guild has some folks you can do missions and quest with then your set.
Bottom line is it is people that screwed up pugs.

street peddler · Jul 01, 2007, 02:34 PM // 14:34

i dont know if this is just me (reading these posts yes it is) but just playing by yourself gets extremely boring, i usually grab a pug for every mission if i can..