Curse

Snow Bunny · Jul 24, 2007, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

Actually, there are inherent legal issues that need to be considered. If you "marry" someone you think is 18+ and they're only, say, 14 or so and pretending to be older so they can get married... well, think about it... how often do you hear about "married" couples engaging in cyber-sex. If you try to initiate "relations" with someone under-age, whether or not you know it...

Just slow down and think about it. One mistake could ruin your life and reputation. One over-zealous judge and you're labeled a sex offender for life. One kid see something go further than they imagined and goes running to mommy or daddy...

Slow down and think about it. Please.

Precisely. Beyond that even. There was that guy the other day recruiting boys "12 and under" for a guild that would include a real life meeting. Right, how often is a boy 12 and under a desired party member? You think this guy wants to know people his age? No, this is what's called a pedophile. You introduce marraige into this game, all of a sudden you have Marrisa Elkenfire (made up name, I assure you) posing as a 16 year old girl when in fact it's a 38 year old man with perverse intentions.

No no...romantic relations in GW opens the door to some of society's more despicable elements. For the sakes of literally thousands of people out there, I advise against this.

MSecorsky · Jul 24, 2007, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Precisely. Beyond that even. There was that guy the other day recruiting boys "12 and under" for a guild that would include a real life meeting.

Holy crap! I hope someone sent a screen shot to the FBI just for the sake of safety! Seriously... that's the type of thing that leads to ... I don't even want to think about it.

Stoneys Rock · Jul 24, 2007, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alicendre

Yay for open-mindness...
It's not always about "zomg I want an in-game lover!!!!1"... And even if people want e-relationships, it's their problem not yours.
It can be too "My character and this one are in love in rp. Why not marry them ? It would be fun and it fits to our roleplay."
People who do that can be married IRL and just playing... May they be in love or not.

I still don't see the point about saying "zomg this cannot be added to the game!!" if you aren't forced to do it, and it doesn't only apply to marriages.
Of course if marriages are public or if you are spammed with "X and Y are being married here" I understand the problem, but if it's private there's no reason to complain... Are you ashamed or what ?
Can someone explain ?

No I just don't think it'll add anything to the game and if guild wars 2 has many roleplayers as you see in the current guild wars what would be the point?
I'd be all for a /propose emote for a laugh but come on I think its just a little far fetched and generally weird to be honest.

Although once more information into what sort of a game guild wars 2 is going to be we could see whether it would even fit in. Otherwise it'd just be like "xulani wedding agent." (hint)

Also I know many people with a lot or all female characters :/ if they did include it some people could get harassed as stated.

Vow Of Singleness "Immune to marriage" =P

EDIT: not to mention the reputation the game could get from pedophiles or whatever if something bad happened god forbid.

Alicendre · Jul 24, 2007, 08:49 PM // 20:49

It would not add anything to YOUR game.
What if every PvErs said "we dislike PvP, it's useless, it doesn't add anything to our game and it gets our skills nerfed, remove it from the game" ? (or the opposite)
Girls are already harrassed, just dance somewhere with a female Ele or Ranger, and poof you get lots of messages... And I can't count how much times a warrior /danced behind my chars.

Alicendre · Jul 24, 2007, 08:50 PM // 20:50

It would not add anything to YOUR game.
What if every PvErs said "we dislike PvP, it's useless, it doesn't add anything to our game and it gets our skills nerfed, remove it from the game" ? (or the opposite)
Girls are already harrassed, just dance somewhere with a female Ele or Ranger, and poof you get lots of messages... And I can't count how much times a warrior /danced behind my chars.

Miral · Jul 24, 2007, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

Actually, there are inherent legal issues that need to be considered. If you "marry" someone you think is 18+ and they're only, say, 14 or so and pretending to be older so they can get married... well, think about it... how often do you hear about "married" couples engaging in cyber-sex. If you try to initiate "relations" with someone under-age, whether or not you know it...

Just slow down and think about it. One mistake could ruin your life and reputation. One over-zealous judge and you're labeled a sex offender for life. One kid see something go further than they imagined and goes running to mommy or daddy...

Slow down and think about it. Please.

three things....
1. it would be just RP marriages, no legal contract or anything involved.
2. cybersex happens with or without in-game marriages, the two have nothing to do with each other
3. the in-game marriage system and ideals of those most likely to use it have NOTHING to do with sex in any way. It is about having fun, roleplaying, having an identifier to link 2 characters, etc.

and 4., to someone else: I'd rather them work on a better mission system than do any AB at all, but hey, that doesn't mean my opinion is absolutely right in that matter and that they shouldn't look into branching out with other features.

populationcontrol · Jul 24, 2007, 09:07 PM // 21:07

real girl friends are more fun

MSecorsky · Jul 24, 2007, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

three things....
1. it would be just RP marriages, no legal contract or anything involved.
2. cybersex happens with or without in-game marriages, the two have nothing to do with each other
3. the in-game marriage system and ideals of those most likely to use it have NOTHING to do with sex in any way. It is about having fun, roleplaying, having an identifier to link 2 characters, etc.

It's amazing how much can be said while missing the point entirely.

Alicendre · Jul 24, 2007, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Still, marriages have nothing to do with cybersex, may it be with or without underage partners.
I've already seen people who were much than likely to be minors having public cybersex in Eden, and more than once.
Furthermore, I don't see anybody saying "Teh Ro X Or Warrior (random name) has raped me online"...
Now if you're fool enough to give anyone on the internet your surname, adress or whatever, the problem is not about marriages.

Miral · Jul 24, 2007, 09:41 PM // 21:41

marriage has been available in several games in the past and it has never been a problem. it was quite a popular feature in UO back in the day, and no one bitched the way people are here...

Snow Bunny · Jul 24, 2007, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

three things....
1. it would be just RP marriages, no legal contract or anything involved.
2. cybersex happens with or without in-game marriages, the two have nothing to do with each other
3. the in-game marriage system and ideals of those most likely to use it have NOTHING to do with sex in any way. It is about having fun, roleplaying, having an identifier to link 2 characters, etc.

and 4., to someone else: I'd rather them work on a better mission system than do any AB at all, but hey, that doesn't mean my opinion is absolutely right in that matter and that they shouldn't look into branching out with other features.

Again, let me, as so many others have, stress this very crucial point.
If implemented, this will without a doubt lead to harassment in so many ways.
Because this is a virtual environment, people will simply feel more emboldened to do this; and because of the possibility that certain people may commit certain acts through/because of the GW environment, here comes the legal aspect.

Child Molester persuades 11 year old boy he is a cute 12 year old girl.
He persuades this boy to divulge personal information by being nice, helping out with quests, cuddling in towns, and giving items.
Boy and molester meet, molester kidnaps boy.
Molester ends up raping, torturing, murdering the boy.
The story goes up over the news. Where did the two meet? In a marraige in Guild Wars, created by Arena Net, a subsidiary of NCSoft.

All because certain people wanted a really pointless/unnecessary option in the game, ANet suddenly comes under fire, and is now possibly liable/accessory to the whole event.

And by the way, these pedophiles and child molesters are quite adept at getting innocent children to divulge personal information. If they weren't it wouldn't be a real life problem.

Again, think of real world consequences of your desires for trivialities, and consider what could happen.

My Sweet Revenga · Jul 24, 2007, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheriff

You guys are missing the point! Don't you want the Divorce Title Track to count for KOABD?!

I want the Elizabeth Taylor title!!!!

Caoimhe · Jul 24, 2007, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Well, as far as the underage thing goes, that's actually easily solved, though it's solved in a way that few will like.

Idea 1: Require some level of age authentication before such an option is viable for a player and/or account.

Idea 2: Parental controls that are passworded, to provide parents the ability to turn on/off such a feature (may also be useful for the chat filter, btw) to limit juvenile players' access to "potentially harmful material."

The key here is, a company must take reasonable means to prevent innapropriate access and/or behavior. Just the fact that we're having this discussion indicates we are all aware that some individuals will act inappropriately and attempt to subvert/skirt a rule or law. In many American jurisdictions, there are strict laws governing much of the type of behavior that we find reprehensible. Other nations, however, do not. So the spectre of international treaties and laws raises its ugly head again.

I think, handled responsibily on Arena's part, the marriage option could go a long way to enrich the game experience in positive ways for people. I also am becoming more aware as this conversation progresses that such an option may become difficult to apply, given the current climate.

That said, there's already no controls in place to prevent any deviant from messaging another character with lewd, lascivious, or other inappropriate comments; we've seen several racism threads crop up recently that illustrate this point perfectly. You cannot "un-see" something; even if you put the offender on your (sadly, limited) Ignore list, you've already seen what they sent once. To some people, that once is already one too many.

I find it mildy disheartening that a game that rewards wholesale slaughter (Vanquisher title, anyone?) would have a community that shies away from other adult topics like relationships and marriage. It could be argued that killing White Mantle, or taking active part in AB versus Kurzick or Luxon foes is equally as "adult" a topic as marriage, and could therefore be subject to similar regulations.

It looks as though we're all going to have to agree that a consensus won't be reached.

As a parent, I totally understand the desire to protect our kids. There are some sick individuals out in this world, and to not protect our kids leaves the door open for all sorts of the wrong behavior.

As an adult in a healthy relationship with my rl partner, who also plays GW, the concept of an in-game "marriage" option is also entertaining; my partner and I have been together for ten years, and our relationship has been the rock upon which we have built our lives together.

One last comment: For those whose romantic ardor has boiled over in-game... nothing you type in a chat box is private. Just so you know.

Alicendre · Jul 24, 2007, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Child Molester persuades 11 year old boy he is a cute 12 year old girl.
He persuades this boy to divulge personal information by being nice, helping out with quests, cuddling in towns, and giving items.
Boy and molester meet, molester kidnaps boy.
Molester ends up raping, torturing, murdering the boy.
The story goes up over the news. Where did the two meet? In a marraige in Guild Wars, created by Arena Net, a subsidiary of NCSoft.

Marriages doesn't have anything to do with this.
You can have an in-game romance without this option, and pedophiles don't even need to have the child in love. He can just act as a friend and some months next, "hey, what if we meet IRL?"

Snow Bunny · Jul 24, 2007, 10:16 PM // 22:16

I think the concept is fun...and not a bad idea...
it's just it seems that the possibilities for miscreants may outweigh the potential benefits, that's all.

Miral · Jul 24, 2007, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Again, let me, as so many others have, stress this very crucial point.
If implemented, this will without a doubt lead to harassment in so many ways.
Because this is a virtual environment, people will simply feel more emboldened to do this; and because of the possibility that certain people may commit certain acts through/because of the GW environment, here comes the legal aspect.

Child Molester persuades 11 year old boy he is a cute 12 year old girl.
He persuades this boy to divulge personal information by being nice, helping out with quests, cuddling in towns, and giving items.
Boy and molester meet, molester kidnaps boy.
Molester ends up raping, torturing, murdering the boy.
The story goes up over the news. Where did the two meet? In a marraige in Guild Wars, created by Arena Net, a subsidiary of NCSoft.

All because certain people wanted a really pointless/unnecessary option in the game, ANet suddenly comes under fire, and is now possibly liable/accessory to the whole event.

And by the way, these pedophiles and child molesters are quite adept at getting innocent children to divulge personal information. If they weren't it wouldn't be a real life problem.

Again, think of real world consequences of your desires for trivialities, and consider what could happen.

that is a product of having open chat. in-game marriages have NOTHING to do with that. the only way to prevent that at all is to completely remove open chat like more kid-oriented online games do. look at the games that have in-game marriage features, and you will not find a single case of molestation or any other illegal activity caused by it, I can guarantee it. And we're talking nearly 10 years of Ultima Online and several other years of other games.

MSecorsky · Jul 24, 2007, 10:33 PM // 22:33

In game marriage occurs between two individuals. In many cultures and societies, marriage equates to fully legal, un-sinned or what have you sex. Therefore it can be expected that at least one of the new "couple" may be entertaining the thought of entertaining oneself with his/her new "mate".

Problem... the new "mate" is under aged and the other doesn't know that.

Daddy walks in the room and sees his 14 year old daughter being sexually approached online by a stranger in this game she plays.

Daddy (at least this one would...) calls the FBI to report an online predator.

=HT=Ingram · Jul 24, 2007, 10:35 PM // 22:35

I don't see the benefit of it, but I don't see the harm in it either. if you want it and it can be implemented, go for it... Why not?

But in all reality, what does it get you that having a friend in your Guild hall with you doesn't? IDK I've been a bachelor all my life. and thus far after 35 years, I just still do not see any reason to marry anyone in real life let alone in a game. lol so maybe I'm weird. I can accept that. lol

There was once a thread a long time ago about GW tunics for weddings. IDK if they ever really existed as a test object or as a cape MOD, but either way. Its still interesting.

MSecorsky · Jul 24, 2007, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

that is a product of having open chat. in-game marriages have NOTHING to do with that. the only way to prevent that at all is to completely remove open chat like more kid-oriented online games do. look at the games that have in-game marriage features, and you will not find a single case of molestation or any other illegal activity caused by it, I can guarantee it. And we're talking nearly 10 years of Ultima Online and several other years of other games.

Actually, you're wrong.

Quote:

There was a case, for example, in which a child unknowingly chatted with a sexual predator via an online game, and was lured to meet the stranger offline. "It's inevitable because predators go where kids go," Collier says.

http://www.symantec.com/home_homeoff...g_online_games

If that's too vague... try Google...

Results 21 - 30 of about 1,260,000 for online games sexual predators.

Caoimhe · Jul 24, 2007, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

In game marriage occurs between two individuals. In many cultures and societies, marriage equates to fully legal, un-sinned or what have you sex. Therefore it can be expected that at least one of the new "couple" may be entertaining the thought of entertaining oneself with his/her new "mate".

Problem... the new "mate" is under aged and the other doesn't know that.

Daddy walks in the room and sees his 14 year old daughter being sexually approached online by a stranger in this game she plays.

Daddy (at least this one would...) calls the FBI to report an online predator.

MSecorsky, I've agreed with you on lots of different topics (sometimes silently... OK, most times silently) and I agree with you, in principle, on this one. But - and here's the heart of the issue - what's to prevent such behavior already? The marriage argument being the "gateway" to it seems a bit thin; the opportunist offenders will do it anyway, regardless of an in-game vehicle for "marriage."

I understand what you're saying about an innocent "marriage victim" in this circumstance. The person on the other side of such a "marriage" would clearly be embrassed/mortified/ashamed of his/her behavior, provided they are, indeed, not intending to violate any laws or are unaware of an age issue with their "spouse." I maintain that an effective toolset, in-place and properly used, begins to alleviate such concerns. Furthermore, (and judging from your posts, I have little doubt as to your parenting fitness (<-compliment)), all parents should be involved in their kids' net use, period. Part of raising kids today must involve lessons on net safety, including measures to prevent online sexual harassment/abuse.

If the tools were in place to prevent that 14yo from being accessible to such inappropriate behavior, and those tools were not being used by a responsible parent, where does part of the fault lie?

I'm not saying that an genuine offender is innocent by any stretch (I'd like nothing more than five minutes and no witnesses with such an individual), but the scenario you presented is already possible within the game itself. It should NOT be possible, in my opinion, for under-18 kids to be able to "get married" in-game, and all appropriate and reasonable measures to enforce that should be taken.

But, again, we are talking (in this case, anyway) about the laws of US states; I can't speak for other nations/areas, because I don't know their laws.

It's a tangled mess, I'll agree, but one that bears some reasoned discussion rather than outright rejection OR acceptance.