Curse

Darkpower Alchemist · Jul 19, 2007, 06:16 PM // 18:16

I have wanted a tormented sword since the damn mission area was opened. What did I get instead? A huge amount of people who won't take my ranger in a team because no rangers are accepted unless trapping in the Veil or Famine backpacking for a monk farmer.

Let's just say that wasn't what I had expected for an elite mission. As for the other elite missions;

UW still is a place were skill makes or breaks a team, or a solo farmer for that matter. FoW is more team/player friendly, but takes some knowledge to do it fully. The Deep/Urgoz/Tombs has been broken down to a science. B/P groups excell in places where the enemies start out slow and steam roll once the minions are up as in Tombs/Urgoz. The last time I was in the deep, I was the warrior/tank, so I know it takes more time and a set type of skills to get the job done.

DoA proved different because if you weren't a warrior, monk, or ele you couldn't get in a team to save your life. The effects of the areas made the place even more daunting. DoA was an area of pure brute force that couldn't be circumvented with skill alone, so the brute force approach that is popular their took form and alienated almost all the other professions.

That alone made the nerf needed.

gerg-nad · Jul 19, 2007, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Well now that I have tried Foundry with a PUG group in Easy Mode (normal) after the nerf, I have found that without the NT/Pet tactic, you get wiped in the second small room.

The group tried it three times and each time the PUG group got wiped. The two groups of foes that spawn there, spawn nearly on top of you since room is so small and the first group has a KI in addition to Dryders and the second Riders and Dryders. We later went back in Hard Mode and did it fine.

The foes generally were easier and had we gotten through that 2nd room it probably would have been easier. I am not so sure Foundry on Normal mode is easier, since the tactics used to get through no longer work. Some serious rebuilding of teams will be necessary to get through in normal mode. So a team set up for hard mode will likely not be the same team for normal.

This also goes true for Mallyx. There was a way to beat Mallyx before, but now I am not so sure (I have not confirmed), but I expect Mallyx will be near impossible to beat. If this is the case Mallyx Greens will skyrocket in price, but gems, except Titans may drop.

As far as team and teamplay, I do not play DOA for the loot (my 8 toons and storage is max out even before I began DOA), I play it for the challenge and teamwork necessary to complete it. During DOA quests, everyone gets on Ventrilo or TS to communicate and work together and have fun. The skills the team take are synergitic and complement each of the roles to ensure success and that we are an effective and efficient team. Teamwork is essential in DOA, for example the SB monk and the Tank need to constantly communicate to maximize protection from bond stripping. The Ele and sometimes Necro have to sync there SacMS on the correct target (usually a Ki or Heart) and if they do not the team may fail. The BIPer and HB monk need to constantly assess the welfare of the team with energy and health.

So I found that a good DOA team is like any very good team that rely on communication, skill, preparation, and work together to be successful and each member have a role to fulfill. I think this change has now potentially, at least in normal mode, taken something away from this, so in my opionion it will no longer be an elite area.

Navaros · Jul 19, 2007, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by gerg-nad

What I don't understand is where is the Voice of the Customer data that says we want this aspect of the game to change. Game balance is one thing, but changing how you approach a whole segment of the game is not. Lets nerf The Deep, so a "Steel Wall" is ineffective or nerf Tombs so B/P rangers have nothing on any other class. These team builds just give folks a better chance of success and allow team dialog to synergize skills.

I will give it time, but I often wonder where the Voice of the Customer is in all these changes? If Anet is not careful they will lose customers, which in the competitive market of MMORPG is very risky.

The vast majority of customers complained en masse about DOA from the first night it came til ~the first month after it was released. That is where their voices were. IIRC there was a 60+ page thead about DOA on this site with the vast majority of customers posting in that thread vastly letdown by DOA. The consensus was that DOA was no fun, and not worth bothering to play in, and should be nerfed. Anet responded with "DOA is not for all players and not even for the majority of players" and then left it at that. The vast majority of players then wrote off DOA as something never to be touched.

If anything lost Anet customers, it was making DOA the way it was originally in the first place, and not nerfing it way back then so the vast majority of it's NF customers were happy. For most customers, it was equivalent to if NF contained no elite mission because DOA was never ever worth bothering with.

Yes elite missions should be "hard", but there is a fine line between "hard" and "Extremely ludicrous, and only 3 of 10 classes are welcome, and only with cookie cutter builds." DOA as it originally came out was way beyond the "hard" line.

I myself never bothered to touch DOA after the first night it came out so I have some questions of my own for DOA veterans:

1. After this DOA nerf, will all classes now be welcome in DOA?

2. How much "easier" is DOA after this DOA nerf?

3. Can random PUGs who are not on Vent now succeed in DOA, or is it still too "hard" for that to be possible?

gerg-nad · Jul 19, 2007, 07:09 PM // 19:09

I find it interesting to see a lot of folks that have not played DOA much have a lot of opinions about it. I also find folks talk about cookie cutter builds and I am not sure I understand what is meant. It it means that the team should take the optimum skills that will maximize the DPS and will be effective for the the foes that will be encountered and are complimentary with other teammembers skills then on every mission I want a cookie cutter build.

The tactics employed by most teams in DOA are better suited for certain classes. Rangers for example need direct line of site to be effective and much of the tactics employeed in DOA are not direct line of site. However there is a 5 man team with Rangers that has proven successful in areas and was beginning to gain popularity. But this means that the tactics of the team will need to change.

I have talked to many veterans that have been effective with many different classes in DOA, but the team needs to set up to be complimentary with their skills and rolls and understand the tactics they will employ. If the team tactics is not line of site and you bring Rangers this will be very ineffective or if you bring energy consuming skills without energy support for the team the quest will likely fail.

With the long time investments elite missions take, people want to be successful, so are not going to take a "hoj-poj" group of classes and skills and end up failing.

ca_aok · Jul 19, 2007, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

With the long time investments elite missions take, people want to be successful, so are not going to take a "hoj-poj" group of classes and skills and end up failing.

Exactly. I've personally played with multiple classes not part of the "accepted group". I've played with domination mesmers, paragon tanks, ritualist spirit spammers, ranger splinter barragers and bips, dervish tanks, ele tanks, etc. Really the only class I've never played with in DoA is an assassin, and I doubt that they will ever see use since they have no place in DoA. However the bottom line is that the usual build is the fastest and easiest way to do it in most cases. (Although the domination mesmer is actually quite a nice ele replacement).

Personally I just want Mallyx to be killable, and I'll be happy.

Seifer Stone · Jul 19, 2007, 08:19 PM // 20:19

I think I agree with Gerg-Nad on all accounts. That is not to say I don't agree with other opinions too, of course, but Gerg's stand out. Perhaps we're looking at it from a wrong angle. Perhaps the four beginning missions were nerfed to make gems unfarmable, or at least not worth farming, thus making the Mallyx weapons more sought after since Mallyx was de-nerfed.

This way, gems are little more than tally marks and the true light at the end of the tunnel is Mallyx? With the nerf, more builds can comfortably join DoA teams and therefore more builds could be thought of to use against Mallyx, therefore opening our eyes to other possibilities?

Therefore HM would be for players who want a challenge and NM is for players who want to farm, but the rewards of farming either are less than satisfactory, therefore Mallyx is the only real objective in the long line of quests?

What do you guys think?

Y.T. · Jul 19, 2007, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by ca_aok

Exactly. I've personally played with multiple classes not part of the "accepted group". I've played with domination mesmers, paragon tanks, ritualist spirit spammers, ranger splinter barragers and bips, dervish tanks, ele tanks, etc. Really the only class I've never played with in DoA is an assassin, and I doubt that they will ever see use since they have no place in DoA. However the bottom line is that the usual build is the fastest and easiest way to do it in most cases. (Although the domination mesmer is actually quite a nice ele replacement).

Personally I just want Mallyx to be killable, and I'll be happy.

i agree, but i have to add that assasin can tank nicely, but of cos player have to know the area pretty well to be able to tank on any char - tank's the most demanding role in doa teams. personally i'm playing monk, ele, mesmer, rit and necro in doa (necro retired tho), i'm planning to play my ranger there more often (however i'm not going to bip with my ranger

). as long as players know what they're doing and can communicate well and work as a team, any professions can find their place in doa teams.
its also rly amusing to hear ppl complaining about not being able to get into pugs in doa with any other chars but holy trinity - war monk and ele - why should any team accept ppl who have no intention of being useful for the team, who dont give themselves troble of spending 15min reading wiki article about doa and adjasting their builds? i saw wammos with mending and HH insulting evr1 in doa am1 cos they cant find a group, of cos it wasnt wammo's fault, just evr1 else was stupid and snobbish... derv/ele with gale and firestorm trying to join citadel group w/o even knowing what citadel is.... barrage rangers trying to find mm to form b/p teams for gloom ... the list is endless

doa was easy be4, doa is still easy, i'm sure theres at least 1 way to kill mallyx w/o the trick, so its ok. i'm glad that noobs now got the option to entertain themselves spamming LFG mallyx quest and dieing repeatedly on noob mode - Darvin was right, and those who'll survive might actually learn smth and i hope that majority of whiners will leave, so overall quality of pugs in doa might slightly improve. come to think of it, mb its not such a bad update after all, dont u think?

ReiNaruto · Jul 23, 2007, 01:25 PM // 13:25

I just want to say that after this patch, I finally could play DoA with my friends and a bunch of heroes. I get my first gem drops and remnants.

I think this update was necessary due to the people, not the game. I was trying to play for weeks and nobody want to play with a ranger/Dervish unexperienced player.

Effendi Westland · Jul 23, 2007, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

1. After this DOA nerf, will all classes now be welcome in DOA?

Pugs stick to the cookie-cutter build. Though mesmers and ritualists are excepted by experienced groups (who will ask you to play a certain build though), basic starting pugs stick to what they know (obsy tank-SS necro- 2 eles).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

2. How much "easier" is DOA after this DOA nerf?

City is relatively easy. This is also the area most players have tried after the nerf and then they go, yay, I can finally use heros here!!! But that has allways been possible.

Gloom has the same nastiness as allways (the cave).

Veil has blood drain nastiness, can't imagine how you plan to tank this without masses of health, so I guess mass enchants + symbioses are still required here.

Foundry of failed creations: With the disappearance of the environment effect the trick to getting past the rooms has been made impossible (at least in normal mode). Haven't seen a pug get past that room in normal mode and most just go to HM to complete it even if they would previously do it on normal mode for quickness.

Mallyx: Impossible to kill now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

3. Can random PUGs who are not on Vent now succeed in DOA, or is it still too "hard" for that to be possible?

If random pugs means your typical FoW/UW group set up or something. Then they might succeed after much hardship in the City. Any other area...good luck.... these can be hard even with the cookie cutter builds. PuGs offcourse only add to the difficulty.

gerg-nad · Jul 25, 2007, 02:17 PM // 14:17

I aggree with Effendi. The Foundry Normal mode can be circumvented by a member bring the Golem and having the HB monk NT to it. Usually its one of the Ele's that brings the Golem. City has like 4 Ki and so few groups now in normal mode it has significantly changed, est time to get it done is closer to an hour now. I am curious is GWEN going to have a new elite area, as DOA is beginning to dry up. The groups that are there now are very inexperienced and groups generally end up taking much longer to form and often do not make it very far.

If folks are new to DOA please be prepared. Read some Wiki on DOA, look at the recommended builds and get those skills. Get Ventrilo and Team Speak working, and be open to suggestions from more experience players. We all have to start sometime, so many will take new players as long as they have done their homework. For example having a tank, without OF is generally not going to get into a group, or if it does will be because the group is inexperienced.

The very large problem with Mallyx/the Citadel quest/ is getting a group together, and all of my toons now are stacking at Citadel, since either no one is getting by him and has stopped trying or experience folks have just stopped doing DOA. I have a team build I would like to try, which starts with the Standard team build and augments it for the Mallyx encounter at the end. The thing folks need not forget is that you need ot get through the 18 groups before you even get to Mallyx, so if you optimized just for Mallyx you may not have the right team and skills for the 18 groups before you get there.

Also the last update said the Door will open after the cut scene. Well it does not remain open, but I believe it will open after you aggro Mallyx. A survival tactic would be to get out of the room. We tried it once after the statement by Wiki of the door opening and thought it was to remain open, but does shut after the cut scene. We died before we exited on that try, since we thought it was not going to open at all, but we think it may have opened once Mallyx got near the door.

gerg-nad · Jul 25, 2007, 03:58 PM // 15:58

I aggree with Effendi. The Foundry Normal mode can be circumvented by a member bring the Golem and having the HB monk NT to it. Usually its one of the Ele's that brings the Golem. City has like 4 Ki and so few groups now in normal mode it has significantly changed, est time to get it done is closer to an hour now. I am curious is GWEN going to have a new elite area, as DOA is beginning to dry up. The groups that are there now are very inexperienced and groups generally end up taking much longer to form and often do not make it very far.

If folks are new to DOA please be prepared. Read some Wiki on DOA, look at the recommended builds and get those skills. Get Ventrilo and Team Speak working, and be open to suggestions from more experience players. We all have to start sometime, so many will take new players as long as they have done their homework. For example having a tank, without OF is generally not going to get into a group, or if it does will be because the group is inexperienced.

The very large problem with Mallyx/the Citadel quest/ is getting a group together, and all of my toons now are stacking at Citadel, since either no one is getting by him and has stopped trying or experience folks have just stopped doing DOA. I have a team build I would like to try, which starts with the Standard team build and augments it for the Mallyx encounter at the end. The thing folks need not forget is that you need ot get through the 18 groups before you even get to Mallyx, so if you optimized just for Mallyx you may not have the right team and skills for the 18 groups before you get there.

Also the last update said the Door will open after the cut scene. Well it does not remain open, but I believe it will open after you aggro Mallyx. A survival tactic would be to get out of the room. We tried it once after the statement by Wiki of the door opening and thought it was to remain open, but does shut after the cut scene. We died before we exited on that try, since we thought it was not going to open at all, but we think it may have opened once Mallyx got near the door.