Curse

yishin · Jul 18, 2007, 11:22 AM // 11:22

Update Regarding DOA 17 july 2007
Domain of Anguish
To balance the Domain of Anguish appropriately for a wider variety of players, the difficulty of this realm has been adjusted. Some of the changes apply only to Normal mode.
In Normal mode only, all world effects outside of the final battle have been removed.
In Normal mode only, damage output has been reduced for a variety of monsters.
The size of several monster groups found in the beginning areas of the City of Torc'qua and the The Foundry of Failed Creations have been reduced.
The Enraged ability possessed by creatures in the Domain of Anguish has been adjusted. This ability now gives the caster +50% damage when below 70% Health, and an additional +50% damage when below 30% Health.
Fixed a bug that occasionally caused Mallyx to stop reacting in combat.

Update - Friday April 20, 2007
Loot Changes
Adjusted the following items so that they are now exempt from loot scaling:
Skill Tomes
Scrolls
Dye
Rare materials, such as Ectoplasm
Gemstones from the Domain of Anguish
All other rare (gold) items
All unique (green) items
Special event items

I have set my eyes on those tormented items (shield, staff, recurve bow). At the moment I can only afford 1 item. But this new update kinda gave me new possibilities to get these items myself (I think).

Will the update make it easier to farm the gems (I think the exemption is in normal and hard mode) myself?
Will it be easier to form a group in DOA?
ATM an armbrace of truth in European districts cost around 100k+65ectos, will the price go down to about to about 100k+15 ectos before GWEN (I want my three main characters to have their own tormented weapon)?
Any reactions:

Seifer Stone · Jul 18, 2007, 11:44 AM // 11:44

I am personally upset with the DoA Nerf. I think it is admirable for the GW staff to want all of their players to enjoy all of the game, I feel it is a direct contradiction to the whole purpose of DoA. DoA is an Elite mission, therefore you would expect it to be difficult. It had the hardest missions with the best loot, and the players who could put in the time and effort to get in a DoA run were rewarded fittingly. Now, however, I know people that can solo farm torment gems.

I think the problem with DoA in the past was that the more experianced players had taken the time to find a cookie cutter build that works for DoA, and were too afraid to let non-Warrior, Ele, Necro or Monks into their group. I know for a fact that Dervs, Rits, Assassins, Paragons, Rangers and Mesmers can do just fine in DoA, and don't mind grouping with one that knows what s/he is doing. Most players aren't like this, and thus the nerf was born.

Before the Nerf, DoA was a place people respected, Torment items were fancy and unique, gemstones sold for more than a Scar Eater. Perhaps it's too early to tell, but I know the prices have gone down because of the increased exploitation of farming, and I bet the prices will continue to drop unless something is done about it.

Now, I'm not a gem farmer. I'm not even a farmer, I hate farming. I enjoy a difficult scenario that needs careful planning and organization to overcome, not a random PuG that can manage to skate by in DoA then brag about their un-noteworthy accomplishments. One might argue that HM can be for veteran players and NM for less experianced players, but the numbers won't add up. An experianced player, interested in only money, can farm NM faster than the reward for HM sets out, therefore the only people doing hard mode would be thrill seekers like me.

This post is already lengthy, so I'll cut myself off here. Feel free to argue with me, I am fully prepared to defend myself on this situation, and if I failed to cover something I'd like to know what. I simply feel the Nerf will ruin the in-game economy, and make DoA not as Elite as it once was.

Onima

Kinn · Jul 18, 2007, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Have you tried DoA since the update to see how much of a difference it made?

King's Spectre · Jul 18, 2007, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Seifer, I see your point but..

The intrepid folks who've adopted the DoA early on have had the chance to make a gob of cash. The DoA is about to be made irrelevant by GW:EN. It's time to make this area a little more open to people who don't want to run cookie cutters or don't have a vent-equipped guild staff standing by.

Did this patch do that? Dunno..

Sophitia Leafblade · Jul 18, 2007, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Theres a difference in a Place being Fun and difficult, and being Tedious and difficult. SF being the 1st, DoA being the latter. Yes by all standards SF isnt considered difficult anymore this is because the Bar for difficulty has been increasingly hightened with each new campaign. But at some point it becomes not hard but tediously difficult and requires cookie cutterness > skill.

glountz · Jul 18, 2007, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seifer Stone

SNIP

Have you tried the DoA in HM? Hmmm?
If not you should. I did and didn't find the place farmable or easy or whatever.

gerg-nad · Jul 18, 2007, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Finally I find a place where this significant change is being discussed. I see this nerf as a very significant change to not only gameplay, but to item value.

Every elite area has a preferred build that makes the likelihood of success higher. In Tombs and Urgoz you bring B/Ps in the Deep you bring "The Steel Curtain" team build, etc. This just makes the likelihood of success higher. If folks want to bring other classes they can, but may risk failure. With as much time each area takes, people do not want to risk failure as they will be investing a lot of time to accomplishing this quest. So trying unproven classes or builds is risky and usually done only with Alliance teams with the intent to test some things.

To see the significant impact this DOA Nerf is all you need to do is simply go into Foundry and take a few steps in Normal Mode. No damage, which makes the NT/Pet tactic worthless.

What I don't understand is where is the Voice of the Customer data that says we want this aspect of the game to change. Game balance is one thing, but changing how you approach a whole segment of the game is not. Lets nerf The Deep, so a "Steel Wall" is ineffective or nerf Tombs so B/P rangers have nothing on any other class. These team builds just give folks a better chance of success and allow team dialog to synergize skills.

Hard mode is less changed by the nerf, but the gap now between HM and NM is much greater. HM, because the AI was smarter, made it more difficult and longer. That will likely still be the case, but will it match the reward?

I will give it time, but I often wonder where the Voice of the Customer is in all these changes? If Anet is not careful they will lose customers, which in the competitive market of MMORPG is very risky.

Painbringer · Jul 18, 2007, 05:07 PM // 17:07

I never thought of doing the DOA before because I try not to cookie cut my builds. I also never wanted to waste my time trying to find a group to accept this. This sounds more encouraging to me, and I will have to give it a try. There are many builds that have never been tried just because people will not give them the time of day because they have not been tested. Hundreds of skills and thousands of possibilities.

yesitsrob · Jul 18, 2007, 07:00 PM // 19:00

DoA was completely shit before, it was easy and you were pretty much forced to bring some boring ass Searing Flame build. Now it's easy, except you no longer have to bring the lame build.

Bigger numbers aren't more challenging... and all DoA was is a lot of big numbers and some shitty environment effects.

havok019 · Jul 18, 2007, 07:48 PM // 19:48

I'm all for the change. Every elite mission should be playable by every class in the game, period.
This doesn't mean there shouldn't be cookie-cutter builds. It means that every class should have a build that is capable and desirable for playing in every area of the game.
If only 1/2 (the holy trinity) of players can access a mission and have a reasonable chance of success, why make the mission in the first place?

Seifer Stone · Jul 18, 2007, 11:59 PM // 23:59

I understand where everyone is coming from, but it seems to me that the argument FOR the nerf is still so that other classes can play it. Like I said before, any class can play DoA, but as Gerg-Nad said, we don't want to spend two or three hours on a single mission only to wipe at the end because the group wasn't up to snuff.

Instead of nerfing DoA, why didn't they tweak the skills? That would have been more practical and less frusterating. 90% of people who play DoA do it for the cash, this mod has already been a direct contradiction to what they wanted. Yes, any class can do DoA now, any class can get the fun toys at the end, but nobody is going to bother buying those items now since EVERYONE can get them as easily as the next guy.

I think Gerg-Nad hit the nail on the head with the other elite missions, how come they didn't get nerfed? Or Hero's Ascent, I've always wanted to finish it for the cool toy at the end but any group that lets me in always dies. Nerf the PvP then to balance it out for me? No, that'd rediculous, I just need to either use a different character or find a more organized group. It's as simple as that.

As I said before, I encourage other opinions on this matter as it is one of the only things I've been truely upset about in the game. I'll by no means quit playing, but I feel kind of like Anet has let me down. Talk it up guys, we need more opinions!

tasha · Jul 19, 2007, 12:55 AM // 00:55

I will start by saying that I am not a huge DoA player. My Guild has only recently started "learning" DoA together and our progress has been slow and tedious. At the speed and learning curve we were showing, I was beginning to wonder if the rewards would actually be worth the effort, considering how little fun I was getting out of that area of the game. Yes I realise that most of the trouble is due to an inexperienced team and an experienced team will breeze through the area, but its something new we wanted to do as a Guild.
We usually run through DoA on Saturdays so I won't be able to see if the area is substantially easier till then, but felt I would share my initial opinions on the update.

Overall, I don't think this update was needed. As gerg-nad said, I saw no demand to make the area easier, it was managable to get through, while still offering the "veterans" a greater reward on HM. While it will be beneficial to others such as myself, I fear the area will go the same way that Urgoz went for us - too long, too boring and too repetative for the time spent in it. I personally have no interest in Tormented Weapons, so I view the experience as a way of making a little cash and enjoying the company of my guild. While before it was frustrating, it gave us something to work on. Now I fear the response will be "Oh no, not DoA again, I nearly drilled my brain out last time it was so boring". In addition there will now be such a step between normal and hard mode that a lot of players will be turned away.

As for why the other elite missions weren't touched... someone somewhere knows. At any rate, I don't think balancing the area with skills would have been appropriate considering the knock on affect on PvP.

Racthoh · Jul 19, 2007, 02:18 AM // 02:18

DoA was simply not fun before. Loading up a warrior with 8 defensive skills then nuking the hell out of everything is not challenging it's just boring.

Quote:

90% of people who play DoA do it for the cash, this mod has already been a direct contradiction to what they wanted.

Well maybe now there will be more people there doing it for the fun of it and not the loot. I've played with enough people who play to make cash, and seen their worthless bodies next to a chest in the midst of a mob because they have a one track mind.

VitisVinifera · Jul 19, 2007, 02:28 AM // 02:28

I'm all for it. From what I'm hearing though, Mallyx needs a similar nerf, now that the trick to killing him reliably was fixed.

We all have our motivations, and those are all perfectly fair, whether it's for or against the nerf.
My motivation for being for the nerf is that it simply was annoying, and I don't have the time it takes to spend hours upon days upon months learning all the little tricks, methods, builds, and elite groups to get into. I'd rather team up with my guildies and alliance mates, who are definitely on the advanced side but not pro farmers, and have fun together. If it's frustrating or a huge waste of time or offers virtually no rewards at all, that's not worth playing. If this nerf brings that more into balance, I'll start playing it.

arsie · Jul 19, 2007, 04:56 AM // 04:56

Actually, I am wondering if Anet is able to monitor the number of unique accounts/characters that have spent significant time in DoA.

If they do have that information, they might decide that DoA is being enjoyed by too few people for their liking.

They might have determined the numbers or percentage of unique users they would like to have enjoying even such high-end content. Instead of repeatedly being played or farmed by a smaller number of players.

For people to strive for something, they must feel that what they are striving for is achievable. If it is deemed an impossible task, people will give up.

Anet threads a fine line between having DoA elite, while having it seem achievable. Only time will tell.

Iuris · Jul 19, 2007, 05:53 AM // 05:53

Quote:

Instead of nerfing DoA, why didn't they tweak the skills? That would have been more practical and less frusterating. 90% of people who play DoA do it for the cash, this mod has already been a direct contradiction to what they wanted. Yes, any class can do DoA now, any class can get the fun toys at the end, but nobody is going to bother buying those items now since EVERYONE can get them as easily as the next guy.

DoA attracted a lot of attention at first (been there on day 1, seen the sea of blue in the outpost). However, the difficulty was set too high, so most people simply gave up on it. The only ones who remained were the most fanatical players who didn't play for the challenge but for the increased rewards. Just look at the post: "any class can get the fun toys" is used as if that was a BAD thing.

However, the purpose of the elite areas is not to provide a source of extra income. The purpose is to provide a new CHALLENGE to those who no longer find the rest of the game a challenge. The increased rewards are only there as a secondary effect.

A game of this type has to find a proper balance: provide the players with rewards, so their efforts are justified, however, it must also pose the players an appropriate challenge to give the rewards worth.

In the case of DoA, there was simply too much of a challenge and Anet has decided to rebalance it. Given how few people played before, I think the move was well made.

Iuris · Jul 19, 2007, 05:56 AM // 05:56

Oh, and Anet is definitely able to monitor how many people play which area. It's one of the primary elements of maintaining their network, after all, knowing where the loads are highest...

arsie · Jul 19, 2007, 06:53 AM // 06:53

My point is not just how many people, but who those people are. Whether it is the same few people playing there repeatedly or whether they are different people.

Effendi Westland · Jul 19, 2007, 07:39 AM // 07:39

I'm all for this change. Should have been modified a long time ago, but for every person asking for a DoA nerf, there was someone asking not to nerf it, or even make it more difficult.

When they added Hard Mode one side got what they wanted, an area so hard it only allows for one approach to clearing it.

This change gave the others what they wanted, an easier DoA, hopefully enjoyable by more players and less need for the cookie cutter build that has emerged.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VitisVinifera

I'm all for it. From what I'm hearing though, Mallyx needs a similar nerf, now that the trick to killing him reliably was fixed.

He does need a nerf now. Problem is that there is no significant difference in reward doing Mallyx in Hard Mode or in Normal Mode. One Green from the chest and a gem of each. For this part even "elite players" will take the road of the least resistance to get it over with and start the quest chain anew.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

DoA was simply not fun before. Loading up a warrior with 8 defensive skills then nuking the hell out of everything is not challenging it's just boring.

6 defensive skills, aftershock and LB gaze, but yea I get your point

Sukodin The Great · Jul 19, 2007, 01:52 PM // 13:52

I agree and I disagree..... I was hoping to kill Mallyx before GWEN, as once I kill him, I will be satisfied that I have beaten NF and dont need to sit around and Farm DoA anymore.... I am lucky and am in a guild that spends most of our time in DoA.. and we do it rather well.... Though as many have pointed out, the structure of the current DoA builds has limited the chars that I can play there... I currently have an Ele, a Sin, and a War in DoA, though only play with my Ele... This is because the accepted Tank DoA build SUCKS and there is no accepted Sin build, which is a shame, since the Sin is such a fun char to play....... Hopefully with the change to NM, this will allow for a more diverse range of groups to go through the different boards.

Personally, I agree with the comment above about how DoA was soon to become obsolete when GWEN comes out, so this is ANets way of trying to get more people in there.......