Curse

Chthon · Aug 27, 2007, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Not finding a consolidated feedback thread anywhere, I've decided to start one.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
My opinions:

First, let me begin by saying that overall, I was very pleased with the preview event. Now, I am going to proceed to "focus on the negative." I'm not going to do this because I think there was a lot of negative aspects to the preview event, or because I think negative aspects predominated. I do not think either of those things. (See the above bolded sentence.) Rather, I'm going to "focus on the negative" because that's where the problems are, and that's where improvements can be made. Negative feedback, while not always pleasant, is useful feedback.

Storage Crisis. We were already really hurting for storage going in. There's no new storage, but it looks like every character is now going to have to be hauling around 2 record books, a pair of brass knuckles, a bunch of polymock pieces, and a bunch of customized minipets. Ouch. That's no good.
My proposed solution: I hear that polymock is going to have essentially it's own bag for pieces. If so, that's one problem solved. A separate bag for just the record books would also be a good idea. As for the minipets, for the love of Pete, just make them customized to the account instead of to the character so that people don't have to buy duplicates.
Hall of Monuments Very Underwhelming. I pretty much agree with everything posted here. In particular, the customization of minipets to a particular character instead of to the account is a big problem. Other than that, I am just underwhelmed with the lack of character-specificity and the bizarre focus on high-end PvP in a PvE monument.
Solo Quests/Bison Tournament Too Hard. Now, before someone starts mocking me for being a "total noob," I do not mean this in the subjective sense that "it's too hard for me." (To the contrary, I personally have had little trouble with them because I'm in a position to adapt farming builds for which I already have the skills and the gear.) I do mean "too hard" in the objective sense that "it's to hard for the average player." The people beating these quests tend to have access to all 3 campaign's worth of skills, special gear (20% enchant mod, 55 armor set, crippling or poisoning bowstring, etc.), ample gold to buy the foregoing if they don't already have what they need, and access to the collective wisdom (or lack thereof) on the forums and the wiki. (I know I used all of those things (if you count when I originally learned about 55 builds and earth tanks as using the forums) to beat those quests.) The average player has none of the above. Sure, everyone who's read the thread here knows that you can buy your way through these quests for 7k, a trip to the Sunspear Great Hall, and a trip to Tennakai Temple. But what is that to the majority who don't visit the forums, may not own both Factions and Nightfall, and can't exactly spare 7k per character to move through the quests?
My proposed solution: Nerf the quests with functional rewards (such as skills or hero unlocks) down to the "lowest common denominator level." Leave the repeatable tournament quest -- and other vanity reward quests -- "as is" for those of us who want a challenge.
Monster Build Quality Improvement Is Outpacing Hench/Hero AI Quality. The monster builds are really quite improved from the previous chapters. Not only are the monsters dual-profession, but they've been given some downright clever team builds, at least by monster standards. A few examples: (1) The mangrador pack fevered dreams paired with condition spam and toxicity. (2) Elementals and ice imps snare so that maelstrom and djinn can't be escaped. (3) Chromatic drakes snare so that fire AoE can't be escaped. (4) Jotun combine healer shutdown, mark of pain, and really big clubs. I consider all of these to be good improvements -- after all, how long have we been asking for "smarter monsters"? The big problems is that, in the face of these improved monsters, the hero/hench AI is just as dumb as ever. In this new light, two of the weaknesses in the hero/hench AI really stick out like sore thumbs: (1) the heroes/hench still bunch up like idiots and make themselves sitting ducks for these mobs' AoE effects, and (2) the heroes/hench have no sense of priority for interrupting or hex removal.
Why #1 is a problem should be obvious. In case why #2 is a problem isn't obvious, here's an example: After my first painful encounter with the mangrador, I got to the Eye and stuck Cure Hex (great skill btw) on my monk. I just made sure to remove Fevered Dreams immediately and the mangrador went down easily. Later, for my other characters, when I left the healing to Mhenlo and Lina, sometimes Fevered Dreams would get removed and the mangrador would go down easily, but sometimes it wouldn't and I'd suddenly find every member of my party with 10 degen and a deep wound. Heroes/hench exist so that you don't "have" to bring human players. But when the difference between a human player and a hench is a fair risk of 10 degen and a deep wound on your entire party, it gets harder to say that you don't "need" a human monk because heroes/hench are available. If the late-game monsters are as much nastier than these mangrador as the torment monsters were to Nightfall's mangrador, the hero/hench inability to remove key hexes/interrupt key skills/etc. may well leave them totally useless.
My proposed solutions to problem (1), "bunching up like idiots":
- The "right" solution is to add an anti-bunching routine to the non-melee AI. Just like a human, they should "know" the largest AoE skill on a given mob's skillbars by looking at the mob, and, during combat, the non-melee heroes/hench should fan out so that no two of them are within that range (battlefield space permitting). (ie if the largest AoE skill the monsters have strikes adjacent, then the non-melee heroes/hench spread out far enough that no two are adjacent; if the largest skill is nearby range, they spread so that no two are nearby.)
- Understanding that the "right" solution is programming-intensive, the "easy" solution is to stick a "scatter" toggle on the hero/hench control radar's-butt-thingy that causes the non-melee heroes/hench to maintain non-adjacent positions during combat when it is "on." They will behave as they do now when it's "off."
- In any event, all the henchmen need to learn to step out of meteor shower, maelstrom, and chaos storm ASAP.
My proposed solution to problem (2), "lack of priorities":
- Again, the "right" solution is an AI overhaul to the hero hench AI. First, there's a number of things that the AI should be able to "know":
  - Like any player who can count, the AI ought to be able to "know" how many monsters of which type are in a mob.
  - Like any player who's faced a given mob before, the AI ought to be able to "know" which skills the monsters have and what their effective recharges are (after factoring in faster-recharge skills, boss bonuses, hard mode bonuses, etc).
  - Like any player with good observation skills and teammates on vent, the AI ought to be able to "know" which foes are using which skills and which allies are afflicted with which hexes/conditions.
  - Finally, like any player on an organized team, the AI ought to be able to "know" how many interrupts/hex removers/condition removers the team has and what their effective recharges are.
  Building on that "knowledge" it shouldn't be too hard to write an algorithm to build priority lists for interruption/removal. Things on the lists get interrupted/removed; things that aren't on the lists get ignored until they make the list in a future iteration. Just make sure to rebuild the lists every time something dies/spawns/gets rezzed. The problem of assigning a gamewide priority weight to every skill can be overcome by using local weight sets stored in the mob data (ie Fevered Dreams has maximum priority for interruption/removal when fighting a GWEN mangrador mob, but low priority when fighting a prophecies darkfang dryder mob). The only "hard" part of this problem is codifying when to use dual-aspect skills in non-priority ways (ie when is it OK to use savage shot against a non-priority spell just for the bonus damage? When is it OK to use cure hex on a non-priority hex just to get the heal?).
  (Yes, I am aware that I'm totally dreaming to think that a-net might even consider investing the programmer hours to make this sort of AI improvement to a game now entering its last installment. My best hope is that a-net realizes that this sort of improvement to the AI is going to be needed at some point to take the fantasy MMO to the next level, and implementing it in GW1 might be a good way to thoroughly explore and test the algorithms for GW2.)
- I cannot think of an "easy" way to "fake" good priority decisions for the heroes/hench. I'm afraid this one is all-or-nothing.
One solution to both problems that I don't much care for: Nerf the monsters. If you don't want to put in the time and effort to make the heroes/hench stop clumping up like idiots and start prioritizing their interrupts and hex/condition removals, you can always nerf the monsters so that the consequences of the hench screwing those things up aren't very severe. I don't much care for that possibility. I think it would be a crying shame to lose "smart" mobs now that we finally have them. And I think it would push the game towards C-space easiness. But it would work. Here's your lazy man's answer.
Useless New Skills. A bunch of the new skills suck pretty hard. Here's three that both me because they are so close to not sucking, and yet they really suck:
- Glyph of Immolation. Only burns the targeted foe, and not any of the others you hit. Why would anyone ever use this instead of Mark of Rodgort? It's just inferior.
- Spotless Mind. Why, oh why, can't it remove the first hex when cast? Rarely. if ever, is a hex going to be severe enough to remove (instead of just leaving it as fodder for dwayna's kiss) yet not severe enough to remove right now. The 5 sec delay on the first removal just sinks this skill. And the possibility to remove an extra 1, or 2, or even 10 hexes later on does not buy this skill's way out of the doghouse.
- Spotless soul. Same deal.

In conclusion, let me return to where I started: I was really pleased with the preview. Overall GWEN is looking very good. All of the above is meant purely as (lengthy) constructive criticism.

Stolen Souls · Aug 27, 2007, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Overall I was impressed with it. You already pointed out pretty much all the problems I saw with it (Buggy AI, etc). The HoM was for me, by far the LEAST impressive (and downright boring/underwhelming) part of it. I honestly can't see what all the hype was about. :/

Dungeans are really fun, I found myself going back to do Frostmaw several times just for the heck of it. Quests are nice, with (finally) worthwhile rewards. Minigames and solo quests are fun, but not very well-balanced at the moment (certain classes have a much easier time than others...for example Rt or /Rt).

But yeah, overall...impressive. And I'm looking forward to the 31st.

JeniM · Aug 27, 2007, 08:32 PM // 20:32

If HoM was what i thought i'd of give GW:EN a 10/10 maybe higher . .

But with it being PvP, and i couldn't find any skins the weapon monument will take from the golds i found, AND that heroes have to have custom armour
The heroes one i can understand but please add a way to get new armour for all heroes in GW:EN, i hated that PacMan thing in NF and the other two missions never give me armors

Winterclaw · Aug 27, 2007, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Useless New Skills. A bunch of the new skills suck pretty hard. Here's three that both me because they are so close to not sucking, and yet they really suck:

Glyph of Immolation. Only burns the targeted foe, and not any of the others you hit. Why would anyone ever use this instead of Mark of Rodgort? It's just inferior.

I think you made a number of good points, like the ones about monsters improving but heroes/henchment not, however I do disagree with you on this one point. In the more recent GW games mobs are getting better with hex removal but glyphs can't be stripped. So if a mob removes your mark, you've still got the glyph and 3 spells to fall back on.

Tijger · Aug 27, 2007, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Enjoyed it immensely.

As for the criticisms the TS has and his proposed solutions I feel I have to disagree by and large, Norn fighting tournament can be done with any class without a huge financial investment, I believe, it does take some smarts and skill but its eminently doable and to put the icing on the cake...its not actually a required quest or a primary quest so if you do find it too hard then just forego it.

As for the monsters, well, during our exploration we've been wiped once or twice but in general we found EN challenging but not impossible, its easier then say, NF's Nightfallen areas (so far) and I'd even say its easier then the areas around SF.

I like the much better and interesting rewards and the dungeons were a joy to explore and getting that big chest at the end does feel like a real reward without the randomness of the 'old' elite areas.

So, in summation, hoping for a bit of improvement in the HoM but otherwise I think EN is a resounding success.

CyberMesh0 · Aug 27, 2007, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Anet's number one lesson from this weekend: For the love of sanity, include a disclaimer for something as significant as the HoM if you're going to present it incomplete for the preview only. So many idiots are assuming that's the way it is, and that's killing you.

Moving on. I was very impressed with everything, from the new quest structure to the minigames (KILROY FTW!) and the landscapes are just phoenomenal. Keep up the awesome work, the expansion is going to rock up and down.

foo · Aug 27, 2007, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

I think you made a number of good points, like the ones about monsters improving but heroes/henchment not, however I do disagree with you on this one point. In the more recent GW games mobs are getting better with hex removal but glyphs can't be stripped. So if a mob removes your mark, you've still got the glyph and 3 spells to fall back on.

More than that, notice that glyph of Immolation cause the burning before the spell that triggers it, meaning that your first SF will cause burning AND deal damage, or that Glowing Gaze will gain you energy even if you cast it on a non-burning monster. Steam, and other spells which depends on your target being on fire will also see more use because of this.

Crom The Pale · Aug 28, 2007, 12:07 AM // 00:07

I have to aggree with what most people have posted, the expansion was good with a few problomatic areas.

One of them not disscused just yet is the layout of the dungeons.

While I love the look and the rewards the actual layout needs some work.

For those that have Factions and do lots of exploring you will recall the Tahnnakai Temple (Explorable) area. It has a multi floored section where you battle your way from the Undercity to the top of the city.

I was hoping to see such multi-level designs in the GW:EW dungeons, rather than just a single level instance leading to yet another single level instance.

Adding some more labrinth like areas would also be nice, though getting lost can be frustrating it lends itself to the possibility of a party spliting up to find the way out/switch for a door/boss monster/ect....

All in all GW:EN looks very good, but has lots of room for improvement

The Great Al · Aug 28, 2007, 01:12 AM // 01:12

I agree with everything you said.

I particularly can't stand most of the skills. A lot of them aren't even really powerful enough to be PvE only.

Chthon · Aug 28, 2007, 03:12 AM // 03:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by foo

More than that, notice that glyph of Immolation cause the burning before the spell that triggers it, meaning that your first SF will cause burning AND deal damage,

Yes, but only to ONE target. If I wanted to do deal with a single target, SF is definitely not the spell I'd bring.
(If glyph of immolation worked the way the description makes me think it should -- cause burning to all affected foes -- then you'd have a point here, and a strong one at that. But it doesn't work that way.)

Quote:

or that Glowing Gaze will gain you energy even if you cast it on a non-burning monster.

Same is true of MoR.

Quote:

Steam, and other spells which depends on your target being on fire will also see more use because of this.

I don't think anything could make steam see more use...

Comparing Mark of Rodgort and Glyph of Immolation, the latter just doesn't look comparable at all: MoR does AoE; GoI doesn't. MoR does wanding for burning; GoI doesn't. MoR burns for 4 sec; GoI burns for 3; MoR gives up to 2.7 sec of burning per energy, plus more if you get multiple foes; GoI only gives 2.4 sec of burning per energy. Both trigger glowing gaze without preexisting burning. MoR doesn't trigger SF without preexisting burning; GoI only triggers it for one foe. MoR can be removed; GoI can't.
Bottom line on glyph of immolation: IMO, the only situation where it's not just out-and-out inferior to MoR is against mobs with heavy hex removal.

Buster · Aug 28, 2007, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Everything was really good. Dungeons were great and I liked all the heroes we were able to get so far. The quests and the mini games were alot of fun.

pamelf · Aug 28, 2007, 04:12 AM // 04:12

That was a great post Chthon. You didn't whinge, and you were constructive, and I pretty much agree with everything you had to say.

arcanemacabre · Aug 28, 2007, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Oh I loved the new monster AI - really awesome. It became a more active battle, versus groups like the Charr with their battle formations, than a passive one. I actually wasn't bored and c+spacing everything. Gonna be fun when I go through it on my Mesmer.

I somewhat agree on the AI of the heroes needing an upgrade, too. Though, that was part of the fun. I used flags more than I ever had before, and it felt more like a battle of strategy than of simply overpowering the enemy. Of course, I didn't really try out any of the PvE-only skills, except for the parts where we were using the Animal Blessings, which were quite insanely powerful.

I thought the dungeons were a breath of fresh air, too. Only thing I wish they had more of would be puzzles. I mean sure, there were a few things you had to "figure out," such as unlocking doors and the rolling snowballs that crash through blocked paths, but that was nowhere near enough. More of that, and much more complicated, please!

Also, the solo quests are really fun. I remember when I first did Tihark Orchard, and thought how cool was it to have a solo mission, only to find out - that was it. These tournaments are really cool, and I think Polymock is going to be a hoot. The "games within a game" is a great way to go for increasing things to do.

People say there is too much grind involved with GWEN, I disagree. I define "grind" as a mindless, repetitive, and boring task needed to increase power or reward. As far as I've seen in GWEN, none of it is mindless, repetitive or boring in the least, and the rewards are worth the effort. Sure, there may be a lot of reputation to get, but there are so many fun ways to get it.

gabrial heart · Aug 28, 2007, 05:18 AM // 05:18

I do agree the hero/hench ai could use some work and i use the term *some* because, for the most part, I've partied with players that are quite a bit worse then an entire group of hench. I think for an mmo, when the ai out paces the fairly standard pick-up group, there is a problem. Maybe if the mobs get *super-smart* i might feel the hench/hero ai should be tweaked a good deal more, but right now i'd be happy with the hero ai not running off at bad times into huge mobs as they kite themselves 2 aggro bubbles away. And whatever they did to the mm build with heros needs to go back to what it was, right now an mm hero might be 2 bubbles behind you while he heals and casts death nova on every minion. Other then those 2 things, a decent set of skills on heros makes them pretty workable as is and in many many cases still better then the average pug.

As with a really good deal of folks, i agree %100 with HOM gripes. I really don't know however, how functional it was for the preview event, so I'm not going insane about it. But truly why there is such high level pvp recognition in a pve monument completely boggles my mind as well. Are their really pvp players that hard core into pve that they even care what carries over to GW2? Last i checked you could unlock the entire set of skills and items with cold hard cash. I'm totally fine with the high level pvp recognition in HOM, but the really limited pve rec for titles and such is very poor. I do however remember Gaile saying she wasn't even sure if the HOM would be functional during the sneak peek.

Everblight · Aug 28, 2007, 06:24 AM // 06:24

I am somewhat disappointed that the skills and heroes we gained during the sneak peek have since been locked (didn't they say we would get to keep what we earned?). However, hopefully that is only an issue for a few days.

Otherwise, I thought my heroes did quite admirablly, especially since I didn't bother rekitting Gwen and Jora yet. The henchmen were pretty typical in their behavior, although some have stated Devona and Cynn both got skill upgrades, and I found Cynn in particular to stay alive longer than she typically does.

I also like the new assortment of potential pets, although sadly just completed training a dire southern Shiverpeaks wolf, so didn't want to trade him in.

New skills ran hot and cold for me. I like the Norn elites, although I wish they were a new skill type and equipable with current elites, as they can't be used in conjuction. I am less impressed with the Ebon Vanguard skills, although I am sure they will have their place. Overall, I am anxious to see more and reserve final judgement until I have seen more of EotN.

Kale Ironfist · Aug 28, 2007, 06:56 AM // 06:56

Henchmen builds have improved far more than monster builds. Case in point, Mhenlo, Herta, Talon, Devona and Cynn got great improvements.

AI for monsters doesn't seem to have changed much at all, just that their skill bars and team builds make them more formidable than before. The improved skillbars of henchmen, however, make your team just that much more deadly compared to the crap they had before.

Otherwise, I agree with your assessment.

FFF_Mara · Aug 28, 2007, 07:22 AM // 07:22

I loved it. I just want to play it again and cant wait till Friday! I leave the discussion about "imba" skills to the more adept than me

I also agree with the storage problem and "spotless mind". I bought it happily but threw it out after using it half a day.

I also would like to say i appreciate the high number of Mesmers in the enemy lines (or was it just a subjective impresison?). Sure, its harder but its also a challenge. Mesmer is a lovely class and can be a real troublemaker.
Anyway I feel im gonna need more Hexremoval in Eotn.

.

Iuris · Aug 28, 2007, 07:28 AM // 07:28

I will state that I'm directly opposed to most of the OP's points.

First, EotN has brought a paradigm shift: the enemy groups are now fewer in number, but each individual is more dangerous on its own. This is a good thing. PvE used to be only about doing more AoE faster so you could move on to the next group more quickly. The holy trinity (Warrior tank gathers foes in one spot, Elementalist nukers kill them, Monks heal up the damage) ruled all. And that holier than though attitude needs to end.

The new situation means that the classes who don't specialize in dealing widespread damage will become useful again. Take Mesmers, for example. If the average group now is 4, the mesmer's shutting down one key enemy means he shuts down 25% of the enemy where he used to only shut down 16% of a 6 member group. A big difference. Assassins able to take down single foes have a similar increase in value.

That's why the monsters must stay. Must.

Once you adapt to the changes, you will see that it's not an issue of heroes and henches being bad - it's simply an issue of adapting. Leave the searing flames at home, let Norgu get some exercise (no wonder the poor guy has gut like mine, he never goes out).

As for the Hall of monuments: I'm not disappointed. That's because from the start I realized it would be like this.

Your account is between you and Anet. Your character is who actually did all the stuff. As a consequence, the Hall of monuments is there to immortalize the achievements of the character.

Noone ever complained before that you could only use a minipet on one character at a time. Noone ever complained that each of your characters get a gift each birthday. Only now, when they finally realize what this meant do people complain. And it's too late. Anet has done the right thing.

In GW2, I'd much rather meet the offspring of my allies, or gaze upon the ancestral relics of the elder heroes enshrined safely, than I would gaze upon a loooong list of titles achieved.

All in all, a magnificent job, Anet.

Well99 · Aug 28, 2007, 07:52 AM // 07:52

As far as the preview I enjoyed it.There were problems with the hero AI.I ran pretty much straight H/H except for a few quests with a friend.
I had one time 6 H/h just stand there.I even tried micromangeing and the skills wouldnt work.I checked on heroes and no energy was used on 2 of them.Nothing was rechargeing.Also their were monsters at least 1 1/2 circles away that charged into the fight in some battles.Also the chests were about 10/1 purple..oh well.
Overall I thought it was great.I really enjoyed it.There were inconviences and I got kicked quite a few times but considering it was new it wasnt a big deal..love reconnect..)
Hopefully the hero AI will get straighted out.Makes it so much more enjoyable

=HT=Ingram · Aug 28, 2007, 07:57 AM // 07:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iuris

Noone ever complained before that you could only use a minipet on one character at a time. Noone ever complained that each of your characters get a gift each birthday. Only now, when they finally realize what this meant do people complain. And it's too late. Anet has done the right thing.

No one complained cause there was nothing to complain about. if anything the complaint is not that one 1 character can get the pets its that we still have to carry them around in the shared inventory storage space, and now one the character that stored it can use it anymore... if anything this is prompting people to just trash them after putting them in the monument and get new ones... thus driving the inflation market back up to outrageous prices again. I'm done with them at this point. so I care yes, but its not going to effect me again till 3rd birthday on 4 characters... I consider it lesson learned, never put anything in HoM. unless they put something in there to fix the situation so that the functionality of the mini pet is returned to account wide usage as it always was before. No one cares that only one character can get the reward. Everyone is fine with that... We just want to be able to use what we earned as we always have prior.

And for the record I always wanted the minis to be untradable. so them being customized is 100% the best thing ever. They should stand as a tribute to something earned. If they would have done it from the beginning like this. well no one would be upset. But they didn't and in the end they changed a fundamental basic function of how we are able to use them in general. JUST for recording our earned achievements in the HoM. in the end I would have rather lost it from inventory never to see again, then have what happened happen. Least then it would be a useless item that at the very least relieved a storage spot in inventory. I just do not have the heart to trash an earned item. if I would have been forced to, well thats one thing, but doing it and making it useless on the account except for that 1 character.. well thats just depressing.

Like I said before if I could have undone it and never used the HoM again it would have been fine by me... That's why I immediately posted warnings on this issue all over the place, and was not surprised to find out more then the average number of players online was upset on this issue particularly.