Curse

Vanessa Dwager · Sep 09, 2007, 05:40 AM // 05:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by IlikeGW

There wasn't all the title leveling madness back then. And NF has a sunspear grind but you know what the game handles most of it. GW:EN doesn't really handle it, you're left vanquishing in normal mode for pete's sake.

The only reason there wasn't title getting madness back before GW:EN was that no one thought the titles would be used for anything in the near future. So SS/LB was only really good for the skills +aura and the treasure seeker/seeker of wisdom was only good for lockpicks and salvage.

The came GW:EN and hoshit what we do for titles carries over to our characters children's children.

Buster · Sep 09, 2007, 06:51 AM // 06:51

Tekks War, Griffs War, repeat dungeons that give Asura points,repeatable quests plus a few rounds of farming here and there got me to rank 6 pretty easy. I am sure it is the same for the Norn area as well ass Ebon Vanguard.

MrBurrito · Sep 09, 2007, 07:38 AM // 07:38

I know this post will bring a lot people telling me this and this and that... but truth is...

Mathematics...

I have been playing GW for about 8 months now... to be precise /age 638 hours and 31 minutes over the past 8 months.

I am a professional with a normal/regular life outside of online gaming, I have a wife, a dog, and a job. If we go by math this means that i play an average of 2.8 hours of GW per day. Still i paid the same amount as of players who average 8 gaming hours/day or more, this is the beauty of this game. In this kind of environment... and this is silly i should have the same oportunities as any other player and vice versa. Many people will ask why... I recall an article on Game Pro I think it was when they announced GWEN about how GW is made for the enjoyment of its players to play on a regular basis but it was not Anet intentions for players to become addicted to the game so that they can no longer diferentiate between game and reality. And this its even scripted in their code.... "You have been playing for 2 hours please take a break" . I own all three Campaing as well as the new expansion, and I'll tell you , I love the game. But still i would also love to wear my obsidian armor... I would also love to wear my Norn,Asuran,Dwarven,etc armor... But i cant because 56,000 factions / 500 faction -per quest(30 minutes) = 112 repeat quests = 56 hours of gameplay (which at the same time will) = 20X days of my average gameplay to get the armor. (note the X = variable [average = tendency = continous variable])

This means I will probably will have to farm for an average of 2.8hrs/day for an average of 20 days in order to get just another armor. And this is really really really unfair for some people who likes to play the game have fun and show off. I will definitely udnerstand if GW was a subscription based game in which you have to excessively reward your players based on online time/excessive playing, but this is not the case. And again i explain and correct my complain is not about the farming issue... is about the time I will loose farming points instead of enjoying the game itself.

Therefore with this practices sometimes its even understandable how some people will buy gold/ectos and other goodies just to be able to have access to the same items as other players do.

So, in conclusion... Even i dont like the new idea of the Title Based Armor... I will still have to farm...farm...farm... for points instead of being able to enjoy the game for example creating another character and moving along the game once again.

If this was a petition to Anet (understand petition as : A solemn supplication or request to a superior authority; an entreaty.) I will vote NO for Title based armor...

I guess this my thought in regards to this matter, and hope comments and criticism at the same time.

Sagius Truthbarron · Sep 09, 2007, 07:46 AM // 07:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by baaba

I am not the farming type but this time Anet seems to make me a farmer.

In order to get the new Norn Armor, I think I need to be R5 in Norn rank title.

Right now I am R3 in Norn title and pretty much stuck. I can't find any quest that will give me any Norn title points.

Do I have to farm the map for hours to get that title?

Wait, are you rank 11 and you didn't realise you were farming? Did you just do those 5000 games for the fun of it?

I do agree with MrBurrito. In most games the issue is difficulty. "I can't get this item becuase I can't kill the boss." In this game its "I can't get this item becuase I can't farm that long." I really like the Hard Mode feature for this reason. Its not farming the same map over and over, its an objective that can be reached by skillful play and build, etc. But you know what? No people want to play Hard Mode becuase they're too busy farming, too busy trying to sell what they farmed, too busy looking for farming groups.

I wish they would break the addiction to farming by making its goals obtainable. Perhaps instead of rarity, diversity would be a better way to spice up ingame armour like they do in other MMORPGs. Its funny that farming for pointless armours is the main focus players have in this game, but in games with imbalanced items and armour players put much less effort in obtaining them. This goes for titles and flashy animal heads too. Nobody wants to do anything different.

I doubt every single person in World of Warcraft's lined up to get Illidan's Panda Sword thingies. But its rare to find a group in this game that's not farming, unless they just started playing.

baaba · Sep 09, 2007, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagius Truthbarron

Wait, are you rank 11 and you didn't realise you were farming? Did you just do those 5000 games for the fun of it?

Farming in PvP??? I don't get it but if you mean holding hall for hours is farming then I might be farming. gg.

I play PvP because it is challenging and fun. We were always laughing like crazy on vent/ts while playing.

PS: I've got enough points to get my Norn armor after 6 full run of killing everything on the map. It took me 1 full day.

holababe · Sep 09, 2007, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Dwarf reputation is easy at least
/cheer for snowmen

william1975 · Sep 09, 2007, 08:40 AM // 08:40

Farming from my point of view is something that is hard work and boring.

With that in mind I think that farming is something that is dependant upon a person's perspective.

I enjoy vanquishing areas, while i uncover map, bsically im a cartographer.
By doing this i have easily amassed a large amount of reputation in the areas i have been to, and have only repeted a couple of maps, due to ding quests.

I don't see this as farming since i enjoy what i'm doing, would do it normally and its not boring or hard work for me.

However for someone that does not like clearing whole maps or uncovering all the map then this would be extremely boring, repetitive and simply a case of farming. This is due to them having to do something they don't really want to.

Now many people come with the opinion that because there are options for having things or not then people don't have to grind or farm. However this is a basically unrealistic attitude. Having options does not mean you have reasonable choices.

A simple example: A woman with her two children are abducted, she is given an ultimatium, pick one of your children to be shot or we shoot them both.

The woman has three options, chose the first child to die, chose the second child to die, or chose neither and both die.

The woman has plenty of options but has no resonable choices here. None are ones that would be picked in normal circumstances.

The situation of reputation is precisely the same circumstance. You have the desire for armour. to get it yo uhave to gain reputation, your option is to go out and gain this by repeatedly clearng maps of enemy and completing quests and dungeons, or to not do this and not get the armour. If you dont like doing the reputaion thing then what choice do yo have? Simply its to either farm the point, which you dont like doing, or not get the armour, which you dont want to do either.

I don't particualry want the armour, and i enjoy the method of play involved in gaining reputation, so i'm happy

However i sympathise with those that dont like this method ad do want the armour, its not whining to comaplaina bout having to go through a task that you find dull and wouldn't do normally. The game is about relaxing and enjoying oneself, to be limited in that is frustrating and annoying.

the requiremnet to gain the armour has went down since the preview. so anet does recognise this as an issue. maybe they will bring it down more maybe not

good luck to all anyway

Dzan · Sep 09, 2007, 12:00 PM // 12:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBurrito

I know this post will bring a lot people telling me this and this and that... but truth is...

Mathematics...

I have been playing GW for about 8 months now... to be precise /age 638 hours and 31 minutes over the past 8 months.

I am a professional with a normal/regular life outside of online gaming, I have a wife, a dog, and a job. If we go by math this means that i play an average of 2.8 hours of GW per day. Still i paid the same amount as of players who average 8 gaming hours/day or more, this is the beauty of this game. In this kind of environment... and this is silly i should have the same oportunities as any other player and vice versa. Many people will ask why... I recall an article on Game Pro I think it was when they announced GWEN about how GW is made for the enjoyment of its players to play on a regular basis but it was not Anet intentions for players to become addicted to the game so that they can no longer diferentiate between game and reality. And this its even scripted in their code.... "You have been playing for 2 hours please take a break" . I own all three Campaing as well as the new expansion, and I'll tell you , I love the game. But still i would also love to wear my obsidian armor... I would also love to wear my Norn,Asuran,Dwarven,etc armor... But i cant because 56,000 factions / 500 faction -per quest(30 minutes) = 112 repeat quests = 56 hours of gameplay (which at the same time will) = 20X days of my average gameplay to get the armor. (note the X = variable [average = tendency = continous variable])

This means I will probably will have to farm for an average of 2.8hrs/day for an average of 20 days in order to get just another armor. And this is really really really unfair for some people who likes to play the game have fun and show off. I will definitely udnerstand if GW was a subscription based game in which you have to excessively reward your players based on online time/excessive playing, but this is not the case. And again i explain and correct my complain is not about the farming issue... is about the time I will loose farming points instead of enjoying the game itself.

Therefore with this practices sometimes its even understandable how some people will buy gold/ectos and other goodies just to be able to have access to the same items as other players do.

So, in conclusion... Even i dont like the new idea of the Title Based Armor... I will still have to farm...farm...farm... for points instead of being able to enjoy the game for example creating another character and moving along the game once again.

If this was a petition to Anet (understand petition as : A solemn supplication or request to a superior authority; an entreaty.) I will vote NO for Title based armor...

I guess this my thought in regards to this matter, and hope comments and criticism at the same time.

So why is GWEN armor system bad, yet you have no problem with the FoW armor system?

Clone · Sep 09, 2007, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

So why is GWEN armor system bad, yet you have no problem with the FoW armor system?

Simple. Armor crafted at droks has the same stats as armor crafted in FoW. However, someone who's spent hours grinding a norn title is doing an extra 70 damage per Ursan Strike. Thats a hell of a lot for a skill with a 3 second recharge. Its the old time v. skill argument that Anet used to promote but has thrown away and stomped on. Grinding for FoW doesn't give a player any extra advantage while playing. Grinding for new titles clearly does.

MrBurrito · Sep 09, 2007, 12:45 PM // 12:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

So why is GWEN armor system bad, yet you have no problem with the FoW armor system?

I mention both on my argument....

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBurrito

I love the game. But still i would also love to wear my obsidian armor... I would also love to wear my Norn,Asuran,Dwarven,etc armor...

But i decided to stick to the topic in reference here which is the new expansion armor.... But for me i see it both the same, there is not a lot of difference between farming one thing or the other

draxynnic · Sep 09, 2007, 02:17 PM // 14:17

To put foreward some thoughts I've been having on the matter:

The thing I really liked about Guild Wars to start off with?

It felt that it was really objective-oriented. I hadn't played actual MMOs before, but I had played online Neverwinter Nights servers where levelling was usually an issue of just going out and killing monsters. I never reached max level, as I usually got bored of it well before then, and in a given session, I never felt that I was achieving something apart from maybe getting a few inches closer to the far-away carrot. Every time WoW players - for the past few years the majority of MMO players I've met face-to-face as opposed to online - talked about things like finally reaching level 60 and reputation grind and how there was a big difference between characters who had just reached 60 and veterans thanks to equipment... I internally cringed, but remained satisfied that in my choice, I'd managed to get away from all that ENGINE GORED.

Prophecies, by contrast, had short-term objectives. Every time you left a town, you could be out there for a reason. Maybe it's a quest. Maybe it's to reach a town. Maybe you're hunting down an elite skill (which could require multiple tries in Prophecies, but that's all right, hunting expeditions don't always have to be successful) or simply out to explore and see the sights. But you have a short-term objective - you're not just grinding points, whether it's experience, reputation, or gold - towards some far-off objective. Yes, some things such as prestige armour did require a lot of time gathering resources - but if you didn't want to farm, you could still gather those resources, surely if possibly slowly, without it. The closest thing to grind would be FoW and the Underworld - but even in those cases, you're not just randomly killing monsters. You have things to do while you're there. You have objectives - things you can do in the short term that can reward you with a sense of satisfaction which just happen to coincide with your advancement to the ultimate goal.

The initial release of Factions did not change this format. Nor did the initial introduction of titles. I didn't ever expect to get any of the grinding ones, but as long as they didn't actually do anything, it didn't really matter, right?

The first alarm bells started ringing when they did. The wisdom and treasure hunter titles having an in-game effect was a small thing at first - not to mention being softened by a general benefit to everyone - but it was the first case of something where a long-term goal was introduced that had an ingame effect.

Then came Nightfall - and the Sunspear and Lightbringer skills. The infamous "Sunspear grind", to be honest, never really bothered me - there were plenty of quests to do, elites to hunt down, and other short-term objectives to achieve while gathering them. Lightbringer, on the other hand, was starting to get worrying - the benefits were restricted to a specific area, but in that area it could make a huge difference. The basic levels - access to the Lightbringer Signet and bringing the Gaze to the point where it would hit the entirety of most mobs - however, could easily be achieved on or not long after finishing the game, and that was without doing most of the Torment quests on the way. I'd imagine that doing them all as well would result in a fairly respectable - maybe not maxed, but respectable - Lightbringer score without resorting to farming runs.

The next step was the introduction of Sunspear and Luxon/Kurzick factional PvE skills. The Sunspear ones weren't a problem - as I've stated elsewhere, reaching respectable Sunspear scores isn't exactly hard. The Luxon/Kurzick skills, by contrast... even account-based, that's a LOT of faction to get. Yes, you can still do it by doing repeatable quests... but that's where I felt the friendship was starting to be pushed.

And then Eye of the North hit. I've stated before that I can see reasons to slow down the acquisition of armour - because it also slows down the rise in demand for materials. But on the other hand - those short-term objectives seem to be missing. To take the example I have the most familiarity with - the Ebon Vanguard side, including all quests, can be done in a weekend... and can be done with still having ten thousand reputation points or more to go for R5. That's along the lines of three or four clearings of Sacnoth Valley, with nothing else to do while you're there, and that, ladies and gentlemen, is grind. It may only be five hours or so of it, but it's a sort of gameplay that I can only stand for an hour or so at a time... preferably with a few days in between.

And heaven forbid that I ever want to use the skills competitively without leading with a Illusion Signet. (And there's an irony - the Vanguard skills are most useful against Charr, but once you've maxed the title, what incentive do you have to continue fighting them?)

Looking forward in time... this is making me VERY concerned about GW2. On initially hearing about "high or infinite level caps" I thought maybe the levels might simply be a prestige thing... but the requirement for a 'sidekick' system blew that out of the water. Maybe ANet will be smart enough that GW2 will have enough to due during that levelling treadmill that it won't feel like grind... but then again, maybe they won't.

Flipping back to the present: I don't see having to work for your armour (or skills, or whatever) as being a problem. What I do see as a problem, however, is that there isn't anything to do on the way. Sure, you might say that in only four runs I'll get there... but what I say in return is what do I get out of the first run? Nothing. Just another few feet towards that metaphorical carrot in the distance. Just like what makes me cringe when I hear people talking about their "achievements" in games like WoW - which is a direction that GW seems to be careening towards.

Some of you may see that as a call for instant gratification. In a way, it is - but I'm not asking for the ultimate goal to be brought any closer. Instead, all I'm asking for is something more along the way that means that after any given session, I can sit back and think that my character has achieved something now - not simply that they're 1/3 or 1/4 of the way closer to an objective that will require them to do the exact same thing at some later time in order to get another 1/2 or 1/3 closer.

In conclusion: Give us back our short-term, objective-oriented play. Don't just leave us continually reaching for some long-term objective that requires multiple repetitive sessions to see any results. Frankly, at this point I'd be happy just to see an announcement from ANet that new, possibly repeatable, quests are planned to be released at a later date - that way I'd know I can do something more interesting now with the knowledge that sometime further down the track there'll be a more interesting way to get that carrot later.

Danax · Sep 09, 2007, 02:51 PM // 14:51

I'm at rank 4, and I still have 3 dungeons/Quests to do. And I wont be r5 when Im done, but ill have very little grinding to do to reach rank 5.

You can do it!

Dzan · Sep 09, 2007, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clone

Simple. Armor crafted at droks has the same stats as armor crafted in FoW. However, someone who's spent hours grinding a norn title is doing an extra 70 damage per Ursan Strike. Thats a hell of a lot for a skill with a 3 second recharge. Its the old time v. skill argument that Anet used to promote but has thrown away and stomped on. Grinding for FoW doesn't give a player any extra advantage while playing. Grinding for new titles clearly does.

Right, except we are talking about armor, not skills, so your point is irrelevant.

Molock · Sep 09, 2007, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

Another ignorant person thinking only E-bayers have fissure. Sigh...

There are people that actuallyb earned their Fissure armor.. but I see a lot more people who didn't earn than people who did. I mean I saw a warrior with Fissure, tormented shield and sword who (while we we're in FoW) was pulling the mobs onto us (the casters). I saw an ele with FoW who was spaming rodgorts and after every battle he would ping 'my energy is 5 or 125''

Anyway, back on topic..

I am working on my title by clearing dungeons, at the same time I am getting onyx and diamonds so I can eventually get myself a Destroyer weapon

hallomik · Sep 10, 2007, 02:42 AM // 02:42

I beat GW:EN with my Rit and I needed one elite armor set to display in Hom (never found one I liked better than the basic exotic way back when). After comparing options on the Wiki, I decided to go for Monument. Unfortunately, I had less Vanguard faction than anything else - oh well.

My strategy was to first complete all of the quests that give reputation, and then experiment with different farming options.

The quests were well-designed and fun - indecisive flaming scepter mages FTW. Each one I completed I got a new vanguard skill, which I usually tried out during the next quest. If, in the course of doing the quest I killed more than 100 baddies, I'd run around and hit all of the rez shrines. Finally, I had a quest that took me to Rragar's Menagerie.

Rragar's is a repeatable dungeon that gives 3000 reputation plus a nice chest drop per clearing. Warning - you must talk to Gron the quest giving merchant again, or you can't get past the first level - doh! Once I figured this out, I decided I'd repeat this dungeon until I had my R5. Unfortunately (fortunately?), I didn't get to do it a second time. When I completed the last quest in the ever-burning forest place, R5 was mine.

So, in my (admittedly small sample size of) one experience, I found getting to R5 a mostly grind-free experience.

MithranArkanere · Sep 10, 2007, 11:43 AM // 11:43

I got to rank 5 doing this:
- All Norn quests.
- 4 Dungeons in the Norn region.
- Fully exploring and clreaing all 6 Norn areas.

I got some decent Master of the North points too.

darktyco · Sep 10, 2007, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

And there's an irony - the Vanguard skills are most useful against Charr, but once you've maxed the title, what incentive do you have to continue fighting them?

Heh, good point. I never thought of that. The only added benefit is to help you vanquish those areas if they add HM.

haggus71 · Sep 10, 2007, 01:09 PM // 13:09

personally, I could care less about the armors or skills. The skills offer nothing I can't get from skills I know and use well already. The armors, other than maybe the Norn ranger, aren't worth the time.

However....for those who argue "you don't need the armors/skills to play the game", this is a game. You play it to enjoy it. If you can't get your character to look the way you like it, since you are going to be looking at it all the time, why should you play the game? If you are forced into gameplay you don't like just to get a character you would enjoy more....why should you play the game?

Honestly, if you don't like this....Hellgate comes out on Halloween. LOTRO is out already. Tabula Rasa(looks like a HALO MMO) is out next month. Age of Conan comes out in the spring. Try them out for free. Skip a few trips to Starbuck's(latte:$3.50, muffin:3.00. +tax) and get the money for the fee. If Anet is doing something that ruins your enjoyment of a game, and show no signs of changing it, vote by NOT PLAYING. If you still do something that is pissing you off and giving you no enjoyment....well, you shouldn't have to do that on a GAME. People have jobs that do that.

Mordakai · Sep 10, 2007, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBurrito

But i cant because 56,000 factions / 500 faction -per quest(30 minutes) = 112 repeat quests = 56 hours of gameplay (which at the same time will) = 20X days of my average gameplay to get the armor. (note the X = variable [average = tendency = continous variable])

Your math is off.

You earn more points by clearing out Norn areas. There are 6 areas, it should not take you more than an hour and a half to clear each area (one per night?).

That's about 9 hours. 9 hours to earn prestige armor. How is that bad?

Aryn Rand · Sep 13, 2007, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Just do all the Dungeons in the game, Duncan the Black gives 5000 norn points. Turning in the handbooks to norn faction gives you another 5000. If you do all the quest and all the dungeons in the game you will end up at r5 or very close in asura and vanguard lines.

I dont get the whine in this thread, finish the game and then you can get the armor.