Curse

tmakinen · Sep 26, 2007, 06:42 AM // 06:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Being good at PvE doesn't mean you'll be good at all in PvP, but being good at PvP means you'll be relatively good in PvE.

Being good at PvE doesn't automatically make you any good in PvP, that's absolutely true.

Being good at PvP automatically makes you very good in the 'smashing face' aspect of PvE. It doesn't necessarily make you a great solo farmer (another aspect of PvE where some runs require a lot of very specific knowledge). It certainly doesn't make you a great power trader (another aspect of PvE). It doesn't make you good at role playing (another aspect of PvE). It doesn't automatically make you a nice person (social skills, yet another aspect of PvE).

Also you're making the same mistake that many PvE'ers readily do - equating titles with skill, whereas the only thing they measure is the number of hours played. PvE titles except perhaps Guardian and to some extent Vanquisher do not require any skill at all, just mind-numbing repetition of simple tasks, and even the harder ones can be acquired just by throwing in enough time and consumables.

Sab · Sep 26, 2007, 07:23 AM // 07:23

TabascoSauce: I'd keep arguing with you but you've taken the argument so far off course I don't even know where to start. See you in another PvP-related thread, I suppose.

YunSooJin · Sep 26, 2007, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

Where did I mention your name in my post? Exactly, I didn't.

My beef is with a certain attitude where some PvP ers seem to have a holier than thou attitude.
Sab says as much as that PvP ers are better than PvE ers. And there are some who subscribe to this. Whether someone plays more PvE or PvP is irrelevant to me. I do not like the condescending comments that are being made from a PvP point of view that say that PvE ers are supposedly lesser people than PvP ers. If you do not subscribe to that point of view then my comments have nothing to do with you.

That holier than thou attitude most likely derives from better knowledge of underlying mechanics in the game. You choose to see the simple truth as condescending talk - this simply obscures your own ability to see that the basis of what they are saying is true. No one is claiming PvP'ers are actually better human beings than PvE'ers - however if the claim was made that PvP'ers were generally better players than PvE'ers, that would absolutely be true. Whether you decide to take that simple truth as condescending or not is your problem, not a valid complaint at all.

tmakinen · Sep 26, 2007, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

if the claim was made that PvP'ers were generally better players than PvE'ers, that would absolutely be true

I feel that I'm starting to repeat myself here, but that statement would only be true for an extremely narrow definition of 'better player', something to the effect of 'good at killing stuff and staying alive'. That's a good measure for PvP activities but a lousy measure for PvE activities, where - as it has repeatedly been mentioned - more or less anything does the job, eventually.

I would tend to call a mature, helpful and generous person with about average 'smashing' skills a better PvE player than one with mad skillz who ragequits as soon as somebody makes a mistake, shouting 'OMG U N00B LRN2PLAY!!!'

I'm not saying that bad attitude is only prevalent among PvP players, it's just less detrimental to PvP objectives and thus maybe tolerated to a larger extent than on the PvE side.

Avarre · Sep 26, 2007, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

PvE titles except perhaps Guardian and to some extent Vanquisher do not require any skill at all, just mind-numbing repetition of simple tasks, and even the harder ones can be acquired just by throwing in enough time and consumables.

Quote:

It doesn't necessarily make you a great solo farmer (another aspect of PvE where some runs require a lot of very specific knowledge).

...

Quote:

It certainly doesn't make you a great power trader (another aspect of PvE).

A specific aspect of Guild Wars itself that has no actual relation to success in the game. You can quite easily be terrible at playing PvE (it's Pv Environment, not Pv Market) while being a good trader. It's irrelevant, as has been brought up.

Quote:

It doesn't automatically make you a nice person (social skills, yet another aspect of PvE).

No, that's an aspect of any part of the game, and again has no specific correlation to PvE of the game itself. You can be superb at PvE with no social skills. Again, this is entirely irrelevant to the discussion.

This thread is hilarious, but needs closure.

TabascoSauce · Sep 26, 2007, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

TabascoSauce: I'd keep arguing with you but you've taken the argument so far off course I don't even know where to start. See you in another PvP-related thread, I suppose.

The argument has never changed for me, bro. Page 3, post 47.

Quote:

This thread so perfectly illustrates why other MMO fanboards constantly point to us as the epitome of an understanding, supportive, helpful community.

In fact, PvP elitism is constantly referenced around here. At the time of this post, the top thread in Riverside is titled "Were once PvE and PvP intended to be mixed?" Read the second post - this is not a small problem. In fact, there is a significant image problem for PvP - which your side constantly reinforces and makes worse, and there seems to be no shame on the part of PvP players for this behavior.

See, that leads me right into this yahoo:

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

You choose to see the simple truth as condescending talk - this simply obscures your own ability to see that the basis of what they are saying is true.

For something to be true or false, a premise must be put forward. "You Suck", while technically a premise, is really an indefensible statement to make. The fact that YunSooJin endorses this behavior, without consequence from any of his peers, shows me that enough people in the PvP community believes in their right to ridicule anyone that it is now acceptable behavior. That is not a sign of a healthy community, and as mentioned countless other times in GURU may be a factor contributing to the poor uptake of players into long-time PvP'ers.

And lastly, two people have not read this thread, and have posted something like this:

Quote:

Again, if you complain about NM PvE, post your build. So we can rip it apart and explain why you're not doing well.

Um, actually I do just fine. I'm done with NM, and am waiting for HM to see what that is about - I have already beat ye olde great destroyer. If you personally really want to see my builds, maybe I'll make a new thread of all my hero setups to help other players, but the first line in that would be to say "I am posting these builds for the convenience of every player, but I have every skill in this game, so the most important thing you can take from this post is go capture these skills, and what the heck all the rest of them too."

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Cebe · Sep 26, 2007, 10:16 AM // 10:16

So, so far from this thread we've established PvEers don't like being accused of needing to "lrn2play", from PvP players who, as far as PvEers are concerned, are just egotistical know-it-alls. PvPers on the other hand don't like to be thought of by people "lower" than them as players with an ego larger than Jeremy Clarkson. Fair summation of the last few pages?

Too many bad vibes in this thread. Can't we all just get along?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

This thread is hilarious, but needs closure.

This thread can only go downhill... /agree

PvE is an Art: "Art, in its broadest meaning, is the expression of creativity or imagination, or both."*

PvP is a Science: "systemized knowledge derived through experimentation, observation, and study."**

The two will Never see eye-to-eye

______________________
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art
** www.carm.org/evolution/evoterms.htm

bungusmaximus · Sep 26, 2007, 10:20 AM // 10:20

Yeah people think PvP-ers eat babies, while they post helpful hero builds instead. Sensible discussion is fine imo, but bitching doesn't help anyone :P

tmakinen · Sep 26, 2007, 10:32 AM // 10:32

(about trading)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

A specific aspect of Guild Wars itself that has no actual relation to success in the game. You can quite easily be terrible at playing PvE (it's Pv Environment, not Pv Market) while being a good trader. It's irrelevant, as has been brought up.

Now you're being disingenious. PvE is more than just doing missions or going outside a city and hitting monsters. 'Success in the game', who are you to tell others what constitutes success on the PvE side? If my measure of success in the game is having a storage full of ecto/rare minis/semi-unique items, what does it matter how good I am at flailing with a pointy stick in my hand? If my measure of success is to re-enact Monty Python's Holy Grail in GW, what does it matter how many rabbits get killed in the production? There are well-defined objectives in PvP but not so on the PvE side. You can choose to do missions and quests, you can choose not to. Some people are perfectly happy staying indefinitely in the tutorial of the first campaign! The campaigns and related quests are just a diversion, not the entire point of PvE.

(about attitude)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

No, that's an aspect of any part of the game, and again has no specific correlation to PvE of the game itself. You can be superb at PvE with no social skills. Again, this is entirely irrelevant to the discussion.

For the last time, PvE is more than just killing stuff. If I'm doing a mission with somebody else, I will always take a nice person with average skills over another with mad skillz and an attitude problem because on the PvE side the skill is entirely irrelevant beyond a certain (fairly low) level. Both the nice person and the snotty person get a passing grade on the smashing part, but the snotty person fails on other accounts. Ergo, the nice person is a better player in that case.

Yes, you can be superbly good at killing things in PvE. That doesn't necessarily make you a good player for several definitions of good. Stop measuring PvE with a PvP yardstick.

Avarre · Sep 26, 2007, 10:50 AM // 10:50

Quote:

Now you're being disingenious. PvE is more than just doing missions or going outside a city and hitting monsters. 'Success in the game', who are you to tell others what constitutes success on the PvE side? If my measure of success in the game is having a storage full of ecto/rare minis/semi-unique items, what does it matter how good I am at flailing with a pointy stick in my hand?

Your personal perception of 'success' doesn't matter to anyone except yourself. A more general idea of success involves someone who is good at, and demonstrates skill at, playing the PvE area of the game. A power trader is good at trading, which has very little to do with Player Versus Environment skill. Some of the most valuable items for trading don't even come from PvE.

Quote:

For the last time, PvE is more than just killing stuff. If I'm doing a mission with somebody else, I will always take a nice person with average skills over another with mad skillz and an attitude problem because on the PvE side the skill is entirely irrelevant beyond a certain (fairly low) level. Both the nice person and the snotty person get a passing grade on the smashing part, but the snotty person fails on other accounts. Ergo, the nice person is a better player in that case.

Unless succeeding at the game has suddenly been equated to 'pleasing tmakinen', I don't see how any of that matters. I'd rather take a player who is good at the game. The fact that you mention skill and attitude separately in your post shows that they aren't connected in any way. PvE and attitude have no more connection than PvP and attitude. Trying to prove that because a PvPer may have a bad attitude, they are therefore bad at PvP, is what tends to be called a 'total logical disconnect'.

Quote:

That doesn't necessarily make you a good player for several definitions of good.

A good player, by linguistic definition, is someone who is good at playing the game. Playing the game involves winning it. There are no bonus points for being extra nice to random people when playing a mission.

Quote:

Stop measuring PvE with a PvP yardstick.

Where are you getting this from? I'm a PvE player, the last time I seriously PvP'ed was in 2006.

glountz · Sep 26, 2007, 11:02 AM // 11:02

Hey people ,why don't you take together a Old Dwarven Beer at Octoberfest.
That's the way you'll be winning GW.

tmakinen · Sep 26, 2007, 11:04 AM // 11:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Playing the game involves winning it

You can't win PvE (having a winner implies that somebody else lost), that's a PvP term right there. Regardless of whether you personally play more PvP or PvE, you are using PvP standards to measure PvE success, and any amount of reasoning doesn't seem to carry this point through. Oh well, I'm done with this thread anyway

Avarre · Sep 26, 2007, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

You can't win PvE (having a winner implies that somebody else lost), that's a PvP term right there. Regardless of whether you personally play more PvP or PvE, you are using PvP standards to measure PvE success, and any amount of reasoning doesn't seem to carry this point through. Oh well, I'm done with this thread anyway

Now you're arguing semantics. Did you run out of logic?

Snow Bunny · Sep 26, 2007, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

The argument has never changed for me, bro. Page 3, post 47.

In fact, PvP elitism is constantly referenced around here. At the time of this post, the top thread in Riverside is titled "Were once PvE and PvP intended to be mixed?" Read the second post - this is not a small problem. In fact, there is a significant image problem for PvP - which your side constantly reinforces and makes worse, and there seems to be no shame on the part of PvP players for this behavior.

See, that leads me right into this yahoo:

For something to be true or false, a premise must be put forward. "You Suck", while technically a premise, is really an indefensible statement to make. The fact that YunSooJin endorses this behavior, without consequence from any of his peers, shows me that enough people in the PvP community believes in their right to ridicule anyone that it is now acceptable behavior. That is not a sign of a healthy community, and as mentioned countless other times in GURU may be a factor contributing to the poor uptake of players into long-time PvP'ers.

And lastly, two people have not read this thread, and have posted something like this:

Um, actually I do just fine. I'm done with NM, and am waiting for HM to see what that is about - I have already beat ye olde great destroyer. If you personally really want to see my builds, maybe I'll make a new thread of all my hero setups to help other players, but the first line in that would be to say "I am posting these builds for the convenience of every player, but I have every skill in this game, so the most important thing you can take from this post is go capture these skills, and what the heck all the rest of them too."

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

I am done with this thread. This idiot makes my head hurt. For the rest of the GW community, just because he signs every non-succinct wall of text with Thanks! doesn't mean he knows anything.

In fact, he knows less of anything than anyone I have ever seen on this forum.

GG

Read HolyMasamune's post about taking PvPer's into Pve and Pve'ers into PvP. It's absolutely true. That is enough testament to end this discussion. There's no RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing thing as pro-pve. And pvp will make you better.

Dr Strangelove · Sep 26, 2007, 04:59 PM // 16:59

You guys realize that pretty much every PvPer plays PvE? The divide isn't "PvP vs. PvE", the division is PvE-only vs. people who play both. It just so happens that players who have to learn effective teamplay and builds in a competitive environment tend to have an edge over those who arbitrarily limit themselves.

Yes, there is such a thing as sucking at the game. That's ok, I used to suck a lot too. Everyone sucks at some point. You can try to get better, or you can fill huge manifesto-like posts with anger spittle.

FeroxC · Sep 26, 2007, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Ok ill simplify his wall of text. There seems to be a large number of PVP players, who are arrogant and talk down down to a PVE player whenever they have the chance.

Tmaikens little anecdote just proves the obviouse. PVP players are going to be better at PVE than PVE players are at PVP. Why ? PVP players already have the fundmental skillset to play PVE at a decent level,PVE players starting PVP dont.

So in conclusion PVP experiance is more relevant to PVE than PVE experiance is to PVP.

Aww i bet you PVP players were hoping for somthing to justify your egos.

Dr Strangelove · Sep 26, 2007, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by FeroxC

Ok ill simplify his wall of text. There seems to be a large number of PVP players, who are arrogant and talk down down to a PVE player whenever they have the chance.

It's really not arrogance. This thread started as a "this game is too hard" bitchfest. Since the game isn't that hard, everyone called the OP a retard. Had the OP instead asked for help, things would be a little more constructive, like in the first few pages of the "blind sucks" thread. Fact is, there's a mob of players who refuse to change or learn anything, and they get really mad whenever anyone calls them out on it.

I don't think it's much of a stretch to say someone like Avarre might be a little better than someone who gets rolled by raptors.

You're welcome!
-Doc

Taki · Sep 26, 2007, 05:33 PM // 17:33

haha wow, this thread is still going?

I really like this comment from Celestial:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

PvE is an Art: "Art, in its broadest meaning, is the expression of creativity or imagination, or both."*

PvP is a Science: "systemized knowledge derived through experimentation, observation, and study."**

The two will Never see eye-to-eye

But I do disagree just a bit with it.

I'd say PvP was the art as it has the stage and elements for expression while PvE was the science as it is constant; a controlled environment perfect for experimentation and a perfect match for the definition given; a change in build directly affects difficulty while everything else stays the same.

Or..... I'd say PvE was Intelligent Design and PvP was the theory of Evolution

(but let's not get into that here).

Either way, both can co-exist even if their cores are a world apart. Both art and science can be found in the two sides so the distinction is not that important I suppose. Anet just failed at playing God this time around

TabascoSauce · Sep 26, 2007, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

anger spittle.

And here is a perfect example for you.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...96&postcount=2

And another.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...96&postcount=4

Oh and this one?

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...8&postcount=16

Another.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...6&postcount=18

That is just the first page of this thread.

You are the one choosing to defend those who would ridicule others. I am just the one holding your feet to the fire. Strangelove, I have personally seen you tell people posting in these forums asking for help to "QQ lrn2play you suck". Are you proud of that? What possible good-guy motive could you have for attacking someone who is asking for help?

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Sab · Sep 26, 2007, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by FeroxC

Ok ill simplify his wall of text. There seems to be a large number of PVP players, who are arrogant and talk down down to a PVE player whenever they have the chance.

If someone pointed this out for no reason other than to feed their own ego, then I'd agree with you. However, the reason people say this is usually because a PvEr starts claiming this and that about PvP, of which they have no experience. A PvPer, seeing this, comes in and points out that the PvEr has no clue what he's talking about, which is almost always true. The PvEr, reading this response, takes this as a personal attack and calls the PvPer arrogant.

The fact that the PvEr doesn't play PvP is crucial in PvP debates, for a PvPer can speak from experience while a PvEr can only speak from speculation. It should be no surprise when people don't take a PvEr's argument seriously. However, noting that a PvEr isn't all that good at PvP always seems to ignite some sparks. While you can argue that some people should word their responses a little nicer, it doesn't change that people who don't play PvP shouldn't argue about PvP. Or when it happens, don't be surprised when people point out what needs to be pointed out.