Curse

TabascoSauce · Sep 23, 2007, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Hi Sab. I remember you. This is simply a continuation of the last discussion. You are once again saying that Coordination and Cooperation are skills learned exclusively in GW PvP, and claiming that those constitute "leetness" in GW that is unattainable for any other player, specifically PvE players, which you consider me one.

My answer is the same as before.

Any competitive game, player versus player or player versus bot, will involve coordination and cooperation in team play, and your contention that the only place to master those skills in GW is top GvG is just plain silly. They can be learned if you play in the same PuG in PvE all the time. They can be learned in PvP also, as you say. You claim there is a difference, and I'm claiming that there is not. Sound fair enough as a summary?

The idea that team familiarity and thereby getting coordination and cooperation amongst that team constitute deepness of the game is a sketchy argument at best for tactical depth, since every competitive game requires that. As I said before, any matchup between teamwork versus individual supastarz will result in a win for teamwork. Claiming that GW is different from every other competitive game seems a bit far-fetched, when I can say the same mechanic applies to such lowly sports as kickball.

If if it comforts you thinking that cooperation/coordination is some sort of a GW PvP exclusive, then whatever.

As far as becoming an arrogant liar, your words not mine, then why are you so disturbed by the premise that equipped skills > player skill? You challenge me every message with providing you proof of my PvP leetness, so what would tales from a year ago or more about sweeping HoH with this or that trick build mean to you? Would that prove anything to you? I doubt it.

Listen, if the best you can do is attack me, then you have no position or argument worthy of continued debate as far as I am concerned. This is not a referendum on me, as much as you'd like to make it one. This is about the game itself, and how to fix a problem that has been summed up in this thread. If you believe that Guild Wars is alone in concern about equipment superceding player skills, then I would suggest you look at every other real sport in existence, since I have been ground down into comparing GW to actual sports which it is not, and google titanium drivers or corked bats. It is a real problem, and I am here saying that the in-game skills are such that they can overcome player "skill".

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Hanok Odbrook · Sep 24, 2007, 05:28 AM // 05:28

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Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

You're discounting an awful lot of legitimate content, which hurts your position particularly because these are exactly the areas that require more skill. As such, you are biasing your argument; normal mode is incredibly easy, and is designed so that anybody could beat it - of course skill is going to be less of a factor there.

I didn't say it wasn't legitimate - I think every part of GW from Pre-Searing to the HoH is legitimate content, however, not all these parts are equal, nor do they deserve equal treatment.

My concern is with the basic PvE playing level content that gets you through the game (i.e. the missions and the primary quests), and the related side material that has become the tradition in RPG's (i.e. the side quests). Part of the solution here is deciding what content belongs where, and how much we should expect a casual player to do to experience that content. Let's remember, GW was designed first and foremost for the casual player, and it was touted time and again that your skill in the game would not depend on how much time you played. However, by nature, build experimentation requires much more time to be vested in a game to be successful and thus works against the casual player. That is my contention, with each new addition to GW, the base mechanics of the game is drifting away from that notion that this is a game suited for the casual player.Now, a casual player by definition has a limited amount of time vested in a game, either by choice or by outside influences, such as job or family. Therefore, they will primarily be PvE players since PvP requires much more time, as it is more of a competitive environment.

The High End content such as the Elite Missions, and the core High End Areas, and Hard Mode were not designed for the casual player, but for the hard core/power player. Anyone understands that, so they too must be thought of as separate content from the base nature of the game as it was designed. The typical casual player generally will not, nor has any desire to play in these areas, therefore they can be treated separately and I have no problem with build selection becoming more of an option/issue in these areas as that is part of the attraction to the higher end player.

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Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Magni is a minigame that is specifically designed to test your ability to analyze your opponent's skills and produce a counter. The fact that success depends the most on build is exactly the intent of the game in this instance. Even so, there are several ways to beat him - some people use condition overload, others use 'punishment' skills like Ripostes, Spoil Victor, etc. combined with shutdown or damage mitigation (blinds, anti-melee hexes, wards, prots, etc.)

Quite so, Magni, like the other Gunner's games can be considered content outside of the norm, however, my problem with this particular mini-game is that you need it to unlock two Heroes (each with a sub-quest of their own), a really cool quest that offers up a unique mini-pet, and three skills. I wouldn't have as much of a problem with this game if it first wasn't for the artificially increased power of Magni as I stated in the PS of my last post, and the fact that it offers a lot more than simply favor, XP, or a unique item. I wouldn't have a problem if it were just that, but the fact that you need to beat this quest to unlock Heroes and Skills, but also requires careful build choice goes against what I believe should be content more easily accessible to the casual player.

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Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Your argument essentially discounts the dimension of build-making that GW allows people to do. Part of the difficulty in this game is exactly figuring out what build to use.

I'm not trying to discount it, I simply desire it to be placed where it belongs – in the higher end and PvP content. Again, I personally view build experimentation as a non-casual mechanic, because it requires time vested, therefore it should not be required in Normal Mode outside of the initial choices a player makes when creating his character, playing through the tutorial area, and choosing that's character's secondary profession. Once chosen, a player should be able to use this character with the skill set they filled out throughout the remainder of the normal content of the game.

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Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

What ruins it is, ironically, sharing of information. If no one shared their builds for beating particular areas, each player would have to figure it out on their own, and the entire process of 'figuring it out' becomes an aspect of difficulty in and of itself. The reason a lot of people complain about cookie-cutter in GW today is because you don't have to do any of the work to develop the build - you just pull something off of the forums or the wiki that's already been figured out and tested, and then win.

Well again, the figuring out isn't necessarily what a casual player would desire. I don't doubt that a lot of players find this part of the game enjoyable as much as I find Role-playing my characters enjoyable. The problem is, we are sacrificing one for the other, I don't think that is necessarily right or should be required. I am in total agreement in that a player should never have to go to outside sources to get through any part of the game. Again, this goes against the typical casual player who just wants to sit down for an hour or two and progress in a manner they find fun and enjoyable. Making them feel they need to consult a Strategy Guide or wiki is a failure in the game IMO.

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Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

If people could win with literally any build, any time, there wouldn't be any compelling reason to actually figure out all of the skills, and no reason for the designers to include so many skills.

Except that it is fun. I restate, that is why I have 22 PvE characters. It is because I want to play with and learn to use all these myriad of skills given to us and create a character I have a vested interest in playing and that I have a fun time doing it. Forcing me to change my choice because it is a choice that does not suit a particular part of the game is not fun to me, and goes directly against what I consider a casual game to be.

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Originally Posted by Klimax

I see where you're coming from, but I disagree with you, I believe finding a specific build ispart of the skill for playing the game, and the Guild Wars skill system is almost entirely based upon it: there aren't a lot of games where you can change everything about your character with just being in a town.
Tactics should come in too, but preparations are another thing, and Guild Wars is built upon that.

Now you say you want to be able to roleplay your character, but this IS roleplaying. Some people are suited for particular jobs, but can't do others, and that goes for your W/Mo too. Now that's roleplaying.
But the fact is, GW isn't a roleplaying game, it's set up so builds can be changed at any given time, and there are lots of other things I probably don't have to tell you that prove that GW isn't a roleplaying game.

It sounds to me you're asking something from a game that it's not offering. It's just not what Guild Wars is.

Well, then maybe they shouldn't have advertised themselves as being a CORPG!! But in all seriousness, just because we have this ability to change on a whim, doesn't mean we should have to. Originally, it was a lot harder to change your build once chosen, but it has been made a lot eaiser. Prophecies is a prime example of needing skill over build to play through the entire game - I have not yet once had to make major changes in any of my characters to progress through any quest or mission - even my Pyro stayed a Pyro in the Ring of Fire. My problem is that with each new campaign, that has become less and less of the case, and I think that's the wrong direction for GW to go. I think we can still keep the Role-Playing aspect of the game, yet still make the game challenging enough for all to enjoy.

Hanok Odbrook
Real Millennium Group Guild
Truth * Knowledge * Peace

bungusmaximus · Sep 24, 2007, 06:05 AM // 06:05

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