Curse

Etta · Sep 18, 2007, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Hey, I'm not saying that you doing it wrong or this is how you should play the game. The fact is you did finished NF by learning the game, the builds, how to counter what the game throw at you and therefore became a better player out of it.

Anyone welcome to play the game however they want but when you see 2 group of people. One side are saying the game is easy, just like taking a candy from a baby and the other side are saying the game is bloody hard! I got beaten up by that baby. It does make you wonder, doesn't it?

I'm not saying that Eotn is hard and I'm not saying that it's easy, it's just right for me and a lot of people. Cookie cutter builds or Tank 'N' Spank still work for most of the area, sadly.

The thing is anyone could get to lv20 very easy in GW. Now Eotn is aiming at lv20 player, but what kind of lv20? The lv 20 veterans pve or average lv20 Joe who may never beat any chapter or never get pass ring of fire, unwaking water or gate of madness.

fenix · Sep 18, 2007, 01:26 PM // 13:26

You guys are overlooking it. This game is ONLY hard, if you refuse to change your build. Using the same build in every zone is only going to limit what you can do. Which is what I imagine the majority of people who are having problems with EOTN are doing. Refusing to change their builds to beat what they are going to face.

So basically, you are all doing it wrong, and should just find out what you're gonna face, then change your builds so that you can beat it. It's that simple. There's no need to complain because of your own inability to adapt.

Longasc · Sep 18, 2007, 01:37 PM // 13:37

There is only one reason why some people find the game "too hard":

Because they have never been really challenged in GW.

They could C-space through every mission, with every silly build combo. They did not need to know any game mechanics or tricks of the trade. They did not have to adapt or become better.

Once they face a moderate challenge, they fail. They hit a brick wall after all the easygoing.

GW2 should challenge players from the very beginning. Then we would have more diverse and rewarding gameplay, and "better" players, even if they are very very casual. They would learn to play.

Right now the PvE campaign does not seem to teach people automatically how to play while they progress. They do not need to adapt, and then they fail.

Anet dumbs down the difficulty even more to appease them and they do not get better because of this, but worse and lazier - a vicious circle.

Till the game is so boring easy like riding wurms everywhere.

TabascoSauce · Sep 18, 2007, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobalt

I agree with the OP some of the stuff in normal mode is just stupid hard.

I'll preface this with - I agree with you. But to be clear, I will put quotes around the word "skill" when I am referring to a selectable in-game skill, and not player skill. You'll see why.

This guy is right too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

You guys are overlooking it. This game is ONLY hard, if you refuse to change your build

Build/"Skill" availability is so important, that there are missions that you cannot complete without specific sets of "skills", whether they be condition removal, interruption, hex removal, etc. Just examples, but true all the same.

That's the beginning, and the end, of this game.

Skill based? No. "Skill" based? Yes.

Anyone know kids playing the game? They have problems completing specific missions or bosses, like say Cyndr, until you help them choose the right set of "skills", then it is all gravy.

That is all the proof *I* ever needed that this game is paper thin for learning curve. The skill behind this game is choosing your 8 "skills". Anyone who tells you differently is a poser, trying to pretend that GW is a deep experience that takes years to master. Better put on some high boots and wade through the rest of the Malarkey.

Look at every FotM that comes along and dominates PvP until all the innocent poor GW "athletes" convince ANet that the right answer is a nerf, as opposed to letting a countergame develop.

I always get the PvP "athletes" in droves coming out whenever I post this, and that's fine - if it helps you sleep at night to think of yourself as a master strategist in the universe that is GW, then good on ya.

Now that I am done with that public service announcement, the final leg of this story is that all the bosses in EotN are cheeze. All it takes to crush the norn tourney and Magni is a blind "skill". He can have all the double damage 300+ a whallop invitation only parties that he wants to, once he's blind it is all over.

Or Cyndr, wow double bow-shot ranged AOE 300+ fire damage that also causes burning? No, that's not cheeze.

8 warriors or rangers with running "skills" and he's a goner.

Without blind, or those run "skills", or some other "skill" based trick to counter the cheeze that is the bosses, then those bosses are nearly impossible to beat, regardless of your skill level. You could be the best GW player on the plater, and Magni will beat you every day, and twice on Sunday, without a gimmick to beat his gimmick. Welcome to Guild Wars, and get to capping all those needed "skills".

Otherwise, you'll find that your game experience is awfully........ frustrating? Like the OP, for instance.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

exiled55555 · Sep 18, 2007, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Anything in this game is patheticle easy once u have the right build. If u get totally raped then go bak and change ur build and ur heros builds. o btw to all u assasin haters out there playin as an assasin doesnt make the game dificulty go up it just takes a different tactic to do the same stuff that u would do as a different class.

unreal_uk · Sep 18, 2007, 04:09 PM // 16:09

The only thing I would say was pathetically overpowered is the 'Twisting Jaws' skill of the Saurian enemies. Even with protective wards, shouts, and stances, my Warrior (who, by design, should be able to stand up in toe-to-toe fighting better than most other classes) dies in seconds. It's utterly ridiculous and not even the slightest bit fun.

Snow Bunny · Sep 18, 2007, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by unreal_uk

The only thing I would say was pathetically overpowered is the 'Twisting Jaws' skill of the Saurian enemies. Even with protective wards, shouts, and stances, my Warrior (who, by design, should be able to stand up in toe-to-toe fighting better than most other classes) dies in seconds. It's utterly ridiculous and not even the slightest bit fun.

Or....
The monk dimisses your deep wound, and another heals you with LoD for 75.

GG?

Look. For example, when I was in the Magus Stones area, there was a lot of caster hate with Migraine and the like. Guess what? I changed from an LoD to a DH, and OMG!!!

The game was easier!

C'mon people, give your heroes half decent equipment, with half decent builds, and rune them up. It's really easssy.

Taki · Sep 18, 2007, 05:39 PM // 17:39

If so many people on the forum are posting about having a difficult time then the less informed/newer players must be struggling quite a bit. That's not a bad thing in my book as they will eventually find a way to get over those hurdles, and be better players for it, unless of course they simply pay/get others to do it for them without paying attention or learning anything. Telling players they suck serves no purpose other than comfort your own fragile (and probably emo) ego so respect to those who posted build or tactic suggestions to help others out in the different threads.

I understand that some don't want much or any challenge and to cruise through the game without any inconvenience, but think how boring the game would be or become for the community if it required little thought or interaction. For many, that's already the case, or has been the case for a while, so they post their feelings about it. Obviously, not everyone will feel the same way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Build/"Skill" availability is so important, that there are missions that you cannot complete without specific sets of "skills", whether they be condition removal, interruption, hex removal, etc. Just examples, but true all the same.

Even though you're probably just trolling I'll answer all the same. In PvE, this is false everywhere except maybe "elite" areas. And I say that from personal experience. Build availability makes things much easier yes, but I challenge you to produce a list of impossible missions without a specific set of "skills."

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Skill based? No. "Skill" based? Yes.

This is where we agree, but only to a point. The game is based around the "skill" concept rather than items so you're right about that. Our weapons are equal but the "skills" we bring and how we use them determine how effective we actually are. And this is where you are wrong. While it only takes knowledge to combine a good build (it could be argued that application of knowledge is a skill in itself, but builds are copied and passed around so much that we can ignore that part of it), it does take some skill to use those "skills" effectively, or more effectively than the next person; to use them at the right times during the most advantaegous situations; or to use them to create those situations.

To explain, with two teams given the same "skills" and under the same conditions, usually one will still win. Why is that? Because that team used the "skills" more effectively than the other. They either had more skillful players to do so or used a more effective team strategy to get the win i.e. they had better tactics. Both are examples of skill, however slight. Thanks to the induction of new "skills" without proper balance though, the game is more about build vs build than actual skill as it's easier to run into a one-trick team where you don't have that one-trick counter. Rock-Paper-Scissors some call it. But you wouldn't know anything about that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

That is all the proof *I* ever needed that this game is paper thin for learning curve. The skill behind this game is choosing your 8 "skills". Anyone who tells you differently is a poser, trying to pretend that GW is a deep experience that takes years to master. Better put on some high boots and wade through the rest of the Malarkey.

Why then were you and the other millions of GW players not at the world championships? Builds have been posted accross the internet since prophecies so there must have been something else that seperated the winners from the losers. Wonder what could be.

I wrote a bit more but decided that you're just trolling and thought better of it. Hopefully, you're not really as clueless and ignorant as you would have us believe.

Don't forget to post that list of impossible missions without specific "skill" sets.

TabascoSauce · Sep 18, 2007, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Why are you asking me for a list of areas that require specific skills to beat? Jeez, if you know more about the game than I, which you imply, then why ask me? Bah. Try any end-game boss, Like say either appearance of Shiro. Beating him without SV would be a fraps-worthy post. You wanna nit-pick, then name the end-game bosses that do not require specific skills. That is a shorter list.

And as far as your claims to GW depth, then consider this. The game is, being generous, 2 and a half years old. That's not a lot of time, and considering the coming and going of the top guilds, then it takes what, months of playtime and you are competitive with other top tier guilds? That sounds a bit out of sync with your claims of superlative lifetime-to-master strategy that you are of course competent at? Give me a break.

Paper-thin.

Let us compare it to, say something with real depth, like playing the Piano.

A relatively direct comparison from Guild Wars to Pianist would be the skill of the player/individual, and the quality of the Build/Piano.

A pianist with 2 and a half years of playing on an average Piano would be a better player than a novice of a few months on the best Piano in the world. The best Piano will not help a new Pianist win in any competition. Can you say that about Guild Wars? Lets look at the history of the PvP forums!

Ooops, not good for your side. We have a constant conveyor belt of "nerfs" so that the game is competitive, complaints of plebian yahoos making a cheeze build and jacking up the honest "athletes" and removing the actual sport of the game. That sounds to me like Build is more important than player skill, with nerf after nerf after nerf documented as evidence.

Like I said - if it helps you sleep at night to think of yourself as a master strategist playa in the universe that is GW, then good on ya. Do not ask me to participate in your fantasy. If you want to impress me as mastering something, try brain surgery or marriage.

The OP and original intent was to discuss the Difficulty of PvE, so I'd be happy to discuss that with you.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Retribution X · Sep 18, 2007, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Let us compare it to, say something with real depth, like playing the Piano.

A relatively direct comparison from Guild Wars to Pianist would be the skill of the player/individual, and the quality of the Build/Piano.

A pianist with 2 and a half years of playing on an average Piano would be a better player than a novice of a few months on the best Piano in the world. The best Piano will not help a new Pianist win in any competition. Can you say that about Guild Wars?

I take it you aren't a pianst.. I am, and yes, the piano matters greatly... Mainly, the force required to depress a key to make a note sound.

But it's a good analogy anyway.

But still. some places are really, erm, odd compared to other areas.

FeroxC · Sep 18, 2007, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Ok after 2> years and 3 campaigns in a very experianced dedicated pve guild ive decided to quit.

This isn't a rant rather a chance to gain an insight onto why an experianced player with over 2000hrs of gameplay would quit due to 'difficulty'.

I quit due to EON not being what i expected, to be honest whenever i played Guildwars i was never looking for a major challenge i was looking for:

Storyline progression.
Moderate difficulty progression.
Socialising with team members via missions.
Hard mode.

Where EON let me down was the difficulty progression. I enjoyed hardmode due to it being non-compulsory. When i wanted a challenge i could vanquish afew areas. I also enjoyed the odd difficult missions e.g. nightfall.

However EON is a full game compulsory hard mode which wasnt what i was looking for, too much frustration

gabrial heart · Sep 18, 2007, 07:44 PM // 19:44

For the record, i don't think tabasco was trolling, but is right in some sense. There have been pretty overpowered build (i.e. i-way) that made beating them tough for even the seasoned vets of competitive play. None the less, there are and continue to be some fairly power counters for just about any build. Which gives way to taking the same cookie-cutter builds that win halls or gvg's and bring them down to who knows how to use them most effectively. That's a pvp game and the thread is about pve.

Now, true that a non seasoned player, with limited skill selection and support of his veteran peers is going to be quite challenged by many of the areas in EoTN, but thats true of all the campaigns as well. I'm not even sure how many players i run across that only have one or two elites unlocked or only buy the more powerful skills (and the more costly energy ones at that), stick em on a hero and wonder why they fail. For example, a mesmer hero running all 15e spells spread out across 3 attributes is going to be horribly ineffective.

Copying builds really doesn't help a ton either if the newer player doesn't know how to use those skills either. But with the advent of heros (which arguably know better then many players) one player with a crap build and little knowledge of how to use it can copy those builds on their heros and make it through the game, without much fuss.

So, in many ways your both correct, GW has gotten softer on the pve side now that more people know what they are doing (or have copied builds they can stick on heros), but it has also made competitive play much more challenging as well. This is the the way of things in general.

Queen-Of-Disco · Sep 18, 2007, 07:56 PM // 19:56

all but 2 dungeons were very very easy for me
frostmaw and shards of orr
first off let me say a ranger or mesmer interupter hero is what made it a bit easier for me, much easier on your monks if the enemy is having trouble casting.
second, DONT STAND IN TRAPS, of course you are gonna get wiped if you are fighting in the middle of fire and poison darts or those lovely ice blasts
third, bring a support character, all damage and all healing is not the way to go, bring enough damage to win, but dont plan on speed killing, thats gonna speed up the rate in which you all die

Gigashadow · Sep 18, 2007, 08:42 PM // 20:42

No matter what the game is (and this happens in every single mmo), you will always have someone living in a fantasy land declaring "This game requires no skill!". If that were actually true, then all players would be equally effective (whether we are talking about pvp or pve) with the same set of constraints (game-skills equipped, in this case) -- something that is obviously not true. Players are not all identical robots, and some simply end up being better at certain things than others, just as in real life.

TabascoSauce · Sep 18, 2007, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Thanks, gabrial. The point I was trying to make was that the mobs and bosses in EotN are arguably ANet's response to player made FotMs and/or trends they have seen in PvE and PvP. Those are "trick" builds, and require the skills to counter them, or they will take you out. The skills you have will make or break you - and the best GW player will not be able to beat Magni without a skill to blind him or cripple&kite him. You must nullify his attacks because he can do massive damage, beyond what you can do. The best GW player, as a mending Whammo, cannot beat Magni toe to toe.

Having been down this road before, I went ahead and talked about how "skills" are more important than player skill, since we usually end up there anyway.

All I can say is, when the other side is saying "lrn2play, change your build", I think they are right - because player skill is not as relevant in GW as your equipped "skills". Whether they like it or not, that is exactly what they are saying.

Does skill play some role in GW? Of course. 2 players with equal builds, the more skilled or experienced player will probably win. But the incredible range of skills available has resulted in both how some builds are better than others, but also a rock/paper/scissors paradigm that demonstrably trumps player skill, and has the endless litany of nerfs as documentation.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Macktar Wang · Sep 18, 2007, 08:55 PM // 20:55

I can say that I made it through the entire EotN expansion without changing builds, with no problems whatsoever. Maybe I just got lucky, maybe I just had a slow, boring setup. Either way, I had zero problems with EotN. I actually thought Factions was harder, but that was back when everything you killed blew up for 100 damage, or something like that. For what its worth, I did every quest and every dungeon except the elite dungeon using my Eviscerate Warrior, RC Prot hero, MM hero (some of the maps he was useless, but I kept him in anyway), SS curses hero, both monk henchies, interrupt hench (who is so good it is almost like cheating), and the Earth hench, mainly for his elite and not his wards. I can throw up my skill bars if people really care, but just using this setup got me through the entire campaign with minimal deaths. Just attack smart, watch your patrol paths, and use a flatbow/longbow to pull and it should be simple.

I agree with Fenix though - if you are having problems, change your build. This is the luxury of Pve - knowing your enemies and what they will do. Good luck guys.

cthulhu reborn · Sep 18, 2007, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by FeroxC

Ok after 2> years and 3 campaigns in a very experianced dedicated pve guild ive decided to quit.

This isn't a rant rather a chance to gain an insight onto why an experianced player with over 2000hrs of gameplay would quit due to 'difficulty'.

I quit due to EON not being what i expected, to be honest whenever i played Guildwars i was never looking for a major challenge i was looking for:

Storyline progression.
Moderate difficulty progression.
Socialising with team members via missions.
Hard mode.

Where EON let me down was the difficulty progression. I enjoyed hardmode due to it being non-compulsory. When i wanted a challenge i could vanquish afew areas. I also enjoyed the odd difficult missions e.g. nightfall.

However EON is a full game compulsory hard mode which wasnt what i was looking for, too much frustration

Well, my ritu finished the GWEN story line from start to finish (killing the Great Destroyer) the day it came out. It was hard because there were many new challenges that I hadn't encountered before. Things like proper dual classed enemies.
Still I finished it in less than a day and yes I did gave a full night's sleep before and after.
Then (after getting out my initial frustration to want to know the end) I slowed down to enjoy it more.
Oh, did I mention I hero/henched the whole thing, except the great destroyer which I did with the first PuG I ran into?

Now my warrior and ele finished it and my sin is done with the norn and vanguard storylines and will finish it soon. The initial difficulty of the unknown has gone and now it is all easy again. Sure the fights are tougher and you need to adapt to the new circumstances but that is what learning does.

I have, for fun, joined some PuGs left and right just to see and it just makes me laught how stupid some people are. I am sorry but some people just don't learn anything from mistakes. Now I am not saying this is you but if a little bit of thought and learning is too much to ask then it is kinda sad somewhere. Yes it is tougher than most other area's but no it is not hard mode.

I remember at first having a really hard time with Jotuns, Destroyers and Dino's...My sin rips through them as if they are nothing. I know now that Destroyers only take half damage from fire and don't burn....so much for SF ele's but that may be a good thing in my view.

Oh and since monsters of higher levels tend to have tougher armour perhaps you should try the wonders of cracked armour....Air ele with shell shock anyone? Makes life a lot easier up there...

So I agree when people say the skill bar is key but I also say that people need to know how to use and combine the skills AND how to build parties.

You are asking for trouble if you take out a team with 4 melee characters and no protter for example. You need a balanced team that thinks defence as much as it thinks offence. Interrupts rule supreme.
Hell, GWEN is the place for mesmers, paragons and blood necro's...interrupt, defence and life stealing...it all has a point in GWEN.

Perhaps people should start looking beyond Wammo's, 2 monks, MM and fire ele's...that might be the greatest gift of GWEN yet...

R!ghteous Ind!gnation · Sep 18, 2007, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Loki-

HAHAHAHAHAHA Loki pwnt!

Taki · Sep 18, 2007, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Why are you asking me for a list of areas that require specific skills to beat? Jeez, if you know more about the game than I, which you imply, then why ask me? Bah. Try any end-game boss, Like say either appearance of Shiro. Beating him without SV would be a fraps-worthy post. You wanna nit-pick, then name the end-game bosses that do not require specific skills. That is a shorter list.

You can't do it because they are none. And that was my point - you have no clue what you're talking about. I've never used SV except to solo farm. Faction's Shiro I beat on meser/rit/ranger/monk with an ele guildmate and hench (no heroes then). NF's Shiro with snare and degen - again no SV. Abbadon on monk/ranger/derv/para/mes with different heroes but a common strategy of high dot skills for a stationary target. Kanaxai or w/e has been beaten by all mesmer, w/p, and mixed rit teams proving that you don't need the standard specific skills. So my list of end-game bosses that do not require specific skills to beat them consists of every one except Mallyx since I've never fought him. Your list does not even exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

...That sounds a bit out of sync with your claims of superlative lifetime-to-master strategy that you are of course competent at? Give me a break.

Paper-thin.

Bit of delusion on your part here as I made no claims of superlative lifetime-to-master strategy. Just a point that there is skill invloved in the creation and execution of tactics as well as builds, even in an imbalanced environment. Once again, if GW is so easy and doesn't require skill to be good at, where were you and the other millions of players in the world championships? Why are so many people having difficulties beating parts of the game? PvE is a static, controlled environment where the only variable is the player and his/her skill level - a combination of knowledge, aquired 'skills', and application of the two. The game is easy to more skillful, experienced players and harder for those lagging behind in those departments.

You claimed GW is based on the skills mechanic but not the skills required to use them. A five year old can tell you it takes skill to get better at anything. Getting to the potty in time, for example, or finally beating the computer at chess regularly.

Then you go on to compare the skill difference of a 2.5yr piano/GW player to a novice, indirectly admitting that there is skill involved in order for there to be a difference. Anyway, a new piano won't make the novice more skillful just like a great build won't make a novice a better player. That novice will still only be able to play within his limited experience. He or she will still make beginner mistakes, bad decisions, be unable to act and react properly to many situations, and generally be lost in the sea of information being exchanged around him. It still takes time, practice, patience, and some natural talent to improve and reach a high level of competency in either.

You don't want to admit it for you dislike of PvPers but there's no need to harbour ill-feelings because some are better at the game than you are. People will always be better or worse at things than you.

So stop drinking so much tobasco sauce
Thanks!

I Blue Monk · Sep 18, 2007, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Oh god, how can you possibly be having trouble with any part of gw:en? Here i am with my entire guild and friendslist complaining that gw:en is much too easy and then i see a post like this? I mean come on.... all it takes is enough sense to not run into a random group of 20 foes and a decent build which doesnt involve the almighty Frenzy - Healing sig combo. Geez!