Curse

Etta · Sep 13, 2007, 10:08 AM // 10:08

I dont think GW:EN is too hard or easy, it's just right for me. Then again I have 3 paragons in my party so not much can touch us. The hardest thing is to stop playing and go to bed.

Cebe · Sep 13, 2007, 10:20 AM // 10:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

About the launchers, I found out that [skill]ward against harm[/skill] is worth it's weight in gold in GWEN

.

That has been one of my most used elites in the whole of Eye of the North. Truly Legendary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etta

The hardest thing is to stop playing and go to bed.

QFT!!

wilderness · Sep 13, 2007, 10:42 AM // 10:42

I found this the easiest installment of GWs so far. I beat the primary with H+H in three days of relaxed play. Most of the time I wasn't even paying much attention. Something I've not been able to do with any of the main chapters.

I'm not professing to be leet here, I'm just saying with the right combination of skills you can breeze through the main areas of this game with little or no problem.

HINTS

Make sure the builds you are using are efficient. If you need help with any, that's what the forum is here for. If you're absolutely stuck PM me what you have and I'll see if I can recommend any changes that might make it easier for you.

Ignore Powerstones of courage for the Primary chain. With the correct set up you should make it through just fine without them. They'll only teach you to become dependent.

Never just charge straight in. Call your targets and prioritize. For EoTN I prefer: monk -> ele -> mesmer -> necro as my priority targets.

Flags are your friends. Sometimes it's best to flag your monks away from the frontline, when an enemy has a powerful AoE attack (such as cyndr) it's best to flag your party away from each other so they can't all be hit at once.

Use the two Henchmen monks in EoTN (Especially if you're unsure about monk skill bars).

The set up I used (as a warrior bear in mind) is as follows:

Gwen: OQNDAowjOXgcgGID0A6BEB0I
Olias: OANCUsxCQXFlMaoI4hMhJA
Master: OQNDAowjOXgcgGID0A6BEB0I

with

Zho
Lo Sha
Lina
Mhenlo

-

This set-up will shut down any target you call, as well as keep you and your party topped up with energy. Especially great against bosses. (Took cyndr and the great destroyer down in 2-3 minutes each).

It's not as instant high damage as some ele set ups, but I prefer shutting down enemies one by one over spamming raw power at them.

-

I'm not suggesting you use, but it might help to review other players set-ups if you're having difficulty.

Nexus Icon · Sep 13, 2007, 11:11 AM // 11:11

It's mostly been fun for me, but me and my friend did "Shards of Orr" last night, and GOD is that annoying if you're a warrior.
Almost every mob has blind-spamming wizards, and no matter how much condition removal your team's packing, you will be blind 99% of the time.
We eventually just cheesed through it, abusing the Beacons of Droknar, only to end up getting req.13 caster junk from the boss chest.

And that last bit highlights what I think is wrong with GW PvE in general at the moment; anticlimactic rewards for the effort you put in.
Rewards in GW are either incredibly bad, or require an innordinate investment of time. There's no middle ground.

Mister O · Sep 13, 2007, 12:03 PM // 12:03

I won't say the dungeon is hard, but the aggro is rediculus.

For example, Im doing Selvetarm in Slavers' Exile. I pulled an undead mob, the healer from the summit group, which was miles away to rez/heal the dying undeads, and so I aggroed the summit healer and then a whole bunch of summits charged to me and my whole group got wiped out...gg...

Back when I was doing the Shard of Orr (I was having hard time to flag my henchs inside wards, they kept scattered around

) but I managed to make it to lvl 3. I pulled a group zombie brutes (together with their priest) to the entrance, but then the skele priest from the other group came and healed them. A sec later, another whole bunch of brutes (from miles away) charged to me and of coz, my whole group got wiped out. And the most annoying bit is, since my group died at the rez shrine, the 2 groups of brutes camped me till I reached 60s, I had no choice but to resign

Perdix · Sep 13, 2007, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lagg

You're doing it wrong.

LOL, he aint, and you're lying if you say you've had no problems.

I know exactly what he means, when the henchies decide to resurrect you with minimum health, once everyone is dead, just so you can die again in 1 hit and then BAM! 15% more DP.

Hanok Odbrook · Sep 13, 2007, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Ok, let me try to explain this through analogy.

You've got a hammer. It's a good hammer, too, and hitting nails is fast and easy. However, it's not particularly suitable for cutting planks of wood, turning screws or checking that a pillar is vertical instead of tilted. You complain that the requirement of using the right tool for the right job is restricting and kills diversity? There's an entire toolbox available with a vast array of choices, learn to use them all - that is proper diversity.

Yes, but unfortunately, points and areas in the game force you to change from being a carpenter to a plummer - that's what I want to see change. I want to see a system that makes combat more interesting and involved, but doesn't force to change your choosen profession, so to speak. The system instead would allow you to find new ways to use your hammer by using the knowledge of carpentry you already have, and using great teammork with the rest of your contractors to finish the job.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

This does not mean they are the best builds to put in a team.
I use MM and SF eles very little because they also have some disadvantages.
However, you need to think more in team-build and less in individual builds.
I am thinking when the last time was we (HM guild) used a MM or SF ele in a vanquish when playing with a guild team. Can't remember and I know I've played with mixed human/hero teams a lot.

And that's what I want to see in the new system. Ideally it works with a 2-8 human party with heroes in the mix because you can pick and choose what skills to take. By having greater rewards for using skills that work in harmony with one another across varied professions and characters, a party can look at all the skills and choose ones that could string together in a long chain bring in the best rewards when pulled off successfully, but wouldn't be required to do so if they are playing builds they fully enjoy playing, as long as they continue to follow good tactics and teamwork.

***

In all reality, I don't believe that any point in the game comprises an unrealistic difficulty when factoring in what challenges the area is supposed to represent. Part of the problem I see is that the game doesn't always set you up to be prepared to meet these challenges when you come across them. Plus there is still many failings in the AI and other bugs that may cause areas to seem more difficult than they should. Again, we see the dicotomy of people who just think the whole game is far too easy. Tweaking the combat system, making monster difficulty less reliant on offensive power and more reliant on defensive capabilities, and changing the AI as I and another player discussed several months ago would hopefully present more of a challenge to those who do find the game to be easy without adding to the difficulty of those who think it's just right or too hard.

Let me go back to Boreas Seabed. Before the Hero system, I thought this was one of the hardest missions to play (aside from the Co-op Kaineng City mish for obvious reasons). To really have success in this mission you need to shut down Argo and Zu Hanuku. The most effective way to do that was with interruption skills, hence making an Interrupting Ranger a boon, though nearly all professions carry some kind of similar skills. However, at the time, the characters I was using didn't have access to those skills as I was only using the skills provided upon quest rewards and the elites I had thus far capped to that point. In effect, my characters with the henches had not skills effective enough to shut down Argo and Zu Hanuku. The new system would make those build choices less of a penalty than they are now. Instead of bringing a set interrupt skill, I would have to figure out the best way to chain attacks with the skills I do have available that would give the added benefit of shutting down the Argo's and Zu's spellcasting abilities the same way as if I had brought straight interrupt skills.

As a broad generalization, one single powerful build would no longer be a deciding factor in bringing down a monster, but how that build works with the rest of the team would. Let's say a party enters combat with a mob of comparable level. Neither one uses any skills, including healers, but simply attacks with the weapons at hand. This fight would eventually end up with the party's defeat because the mob has an inherent health regenerative ability thereby countering any damage the party dishes out. Certain creatures would also have an added inherent ability that can cause health degen in characters, similar to the Afflicted Explosion in Factions that causes damage upon death.

Now let's take it up a notch. Both sides now use their basic skills, but do not form any chains, nor necessarily use any tactics - each character simply picks a foe and attacks. The mob would use monster specific skills only, with the exception of bosses who would carry an elite as this is the only way to obtain elites in the game for the most part. This fight will end in stalemate, because even using the most powerful build, the monsters' inherent, and uninterruptable, defenses can counter and outlast any damage from the party. Let's throw some tactics in here now by target calling a specific creature in a mob. Again, this 8-1 fight would either end up in a stale mate or result in the eventual death of the creature, but take so long to accomplish as to not make the effort worth the time. And now since the creatures in the mob no longer have a strong offensive capability, any healers in the party have no problem counter-attacking any damage inflicted by the mob, while everyone is focusing on this single creature.

Now to the final step. The party uses their skills, and begins to form attack chains similar to the ones I previously mentioned like an Assassin's Lead/Off/Dual attacks - but wouldn't necessarily be as straightforward as that. As long as the players are using skills in such harmony, they begin to get combat bonuses.

Let's say a W/Mo uses Sig of Judgement with Crushing Blow. That's a chain using two professions and an elite skill. On top of the basic damage and effects already given by those skills, he now gets a +15 damage bonus for the chain. An Assassin comes in uses his three skills, one of which causes a condition such as poison or bleeding. No combat bonus here, but then he uses a Necro skill that causes damaged to creatures with a condition. Here we have a chain using two professions - a +10 damage bonus. Now let's say that the Assassin uses the chain, but another character comes in with the Necro skill istead - we have a chain involving two characters of different professions. Instead of the +15 bonus the lone A/N got, the same chain of attack here would net a +20 damage bonus because two different characters of different professions executed the chain.

Using these basic and small chains, the party would begin to be able to overcome the inherent abilities of the mob and win the fight, again with healers being able to counter the enemy damage. But, this type of fight would take a fairly long time to conclude, thus the end drops would be minimum value. Now let's take a jump and say the party was able to execute three or four short attack chains within a set period of time. On top of basic damage bonuses, they now get the bonus of shutting down a monster's inherent healing ability for a brief period, allowing for an easier and quicker kill. Thus since the fight ended quicker than the first example here, the drop reward is slightly better.

Now let's say the party was able to execute an eight skill chain using all eight party members (but only 5 different professions), the party gets larger bonuses that allow them to bring down the creature even faster, thus upping the reward even more. Therefore a party executing a long chain involving all eight party members and 8-10 different professions, would get bonuses that allow them to kill the mob the fastest and reap the highest drop rewards. But, there will be one hitch.

Though the mobs are less powerful offensively, they will have abilities that give them opportunities to break a chain and if they are able to break a longer chain, they get bonuses against your party, be it similar combat damage bonuses, or skill shut downs, etc. Therefore, a party needs to choose wisely how they are going to attack a mob. They can go in, use smaller chains of attack and eventunally win the fight without having to worry too much about defeat, but at the cost of receiving high end rewards. Or they can go in for the quick kill by using long chains, but at the risk of taking serious damage and an equally quick defeat if the mobs break those chains. However, the rewards could potentially outweigh that risk.

One of the things that needs to be worked out with this system is determing what would constitute a long chain and a short chain and what would contitute failure and success of a chain. I'm thinking perhaps an additional system that a party uses to pick and choose their chains, just as we currently pick and choose our skills and attributes. First, after forming your party, everyone gets their skill bars and attributes set. Then the party forms their chains of attack with the skills everyone has chosen. They can form a set number of chains of varying length prior to heading out to an explorable area, upon which their choices would be locked, as the skill bar and attribute allocations are. Upon entering combat or during combat, a member in the party selects a chain of attack they want to execute which sets off the bonus mode. The party now has to execute that chain successfully (perhaps even within a given time limit), to gain the combat bonuses. If they fail to do so, then the bonuses are awarded to the mob. Therefore, choosing "weak" chains offers a safer route, but less rewards, while choosing "stronger" chains offers a more dangerous route, but greater rewards to boot.

Hanok Odbrook
Real Millennium Group Guild
Truth * Knowledge * Peace

PS- Upon further comtemplation, this system would virtually eliminate the solo bot farming problem as well, since a single character would no longer be able to vanquish a monster or mob.

Tijger · Sep 13, 2007, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perdix

LOL, he aint, and you're lying if you say you've had no problems.

I know exactly what he means, when the henchies decide to resurrect you with minimum health, once everyone is dead, just so you can die again in 1 hit and then BAM! 15% more DP.

If you die immediately after res you do NOT get an extra 15% DP

Perdix · Sep 13, 2007, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tijger

If you die immediately after res you do NOT get an extra 15% DP

Really? My bad.
Has it always been that way? Or is this a fairly recent modification?
And how long is the time interval, before it is not considered to be "immediate" anymore?

xArcaeus · Sep 13, 2007, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Yea, there's about a 5-10 second window after you're rezzed that you won't accrue a DP if you're killed again. Not sure exactly, but it's definitely there.

unreal_uk · Sep 13, 2007, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Also, don't forget the new PvE skills - often far more powerful than regular skills, they can help you out no end. Plus, in dungeons there is no real penalty to dying apart from DP, so you can keep chipping away through a dungeon, one enemy at a time if you need to, and the consumables are very helpful. Usually the biggest problem is the final dungeon boss when you have high DP. What I do is save a powerstone of courage until I reach the boss, weathering the inevitable storm of DP until then since I can ressurect as many times as I need to. Once you've wiped your DP with the powerstone, the final bosses should be a piece of cake for the most part.

There's nothing really 'hard' about something when you don't get kicked out upon dying. The dungeons are fun, sometimes frustrating, but you just need to realise that there's a high high probability you'll complete it if you soldier on. I spent 2 weeks waiting for a good PuG group to finish the original Prophecies campaign over 18 months ago, I got so fed up with idiots, leavers and bad players that I ended up doing the fire island missions with henchies (long before heroes ever came along) so I know a thing or two about annoyances and the importance of patience and aggro management. After undertaking that relatively mammoth task of completing the fire island chain with henchmen the dungeons are nothing in comparison!!

Hanok Odbrook · Sep 13, 2007, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by unreal_uk

Also, don't forget the new PvE skills - often far more powerful than regular skills, they can help you out no end. Plus, in dungeons there is no real penalty to dying apart from DP, so you can keep chipping away through a dungeon, one enemy at a time if you need to, and the consumables are very helpful. Usually the biggest problem is the final dungeon boss when you have high DP. What I do is save a powerstone of courage until I reach the boss, weathering the inevitable storm of DP until then since I can ressurect as many times as I need to. Once you've wiped your DP with the powerstone, the final bosses should be a piece of cake for the most part.

There's nothing really 'hard' about something when you don't get kicked out upon dying. The dungeons are fun, sometimes frustrating, but you just need to realise that there's a high high probability you'll complete it if you soldier on.

Yes, but would you do this with a character trying to achieve the Survivor title. That's one of my sticking points about the current system. They give us a relatively difficult title to max out, then give us areas of the game that make it seemingly impossible.

Hanok Odbrook

greyf0x_f0x · Sep 13, 2007, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Loki-

That made me "lol"...

As for the OP, I think it's great that this thread can sit happily beside the many other threads in which players are complaining that "GW:EN is too easy! Release Hard Mode now!". To be honest, I personally have yet to find a dungeon or area in GW:EN that stops myself and a H/H build. There have been a couple of times when I've needed to make some changes to the builds and characters, but nothing so outrageously overpowered that I've given up. The same can not be said of NF, in which a full H/H team in DoA was, perhaps not impossible, but quite close.

I really feel that the general balance of GW:EN was very good. It's easy in places, and challanging in others, but never to either extreme. The general areas don't seem to posses a massive challange, even to the average/casual gamer. Now the dungeons on the other hand can prove tricky, especially if you don't adapt your build. But really, that's as it should be, dungeons are MEANT to be hard.

So I suppose what I'm saying is, if you are having trouble with dungeons, try a bit harder :P Play around with some other builds, get some advice from friends/guildies/wiki. For those that are finding it all a bit easy, HM is coming

freekedoutfish · Sep 13, 2007, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perdix

LOL, he aint, and you're lying if you say you've had no problems.

I know exactly what he means, when the henchies decide to resurrect you with minimum health, once everyone is dead, just so you can die again in 1 hit and then BAM! 15% more DP.

We've all had one problem with an aspect of a campaign or the expansion at some point or another. I had issues with the mersaat when I first played and now their easy. The same goes for parts of factions and now thats easy and the same goes for abaddons masses in NF and now thats okish.

But that doesnt make the game "unrealistically difficult".

It just means you have to get over that learning curve and find out how to proceed. Ive had issues with GWEN, but nothing impossible and nothing I concider impossibly difficult.

I though factions was insainly hard when that first came out and now I just laugh thinking about it.

daky · Sep 13, 2007, 07:10 PM // 19:10

I thought GW:EN was easy, guess your just doing it wrong :P.

Omega X · Sep 13, 2007, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perdix

Really? My bad.
Has it always been that way? Or is this a fairly recent modification?
And how long is the time interval, before it is not considered to be "immediate" anymore?

Yes, it did used to be that way to gain DP on immediate death. And I believe that was changed during the Factions era.(not sure) The interval I think is about 10-15 seconds.

They had no choice really, the pathing back then (and still can be sometimes) ridiculous to the point where the AI ended up camping the resurrect shrine. It was probably the same case in PvP to, but I cannot speak on that.

Fionn Falaich · Sep 13, 2007, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

The part that pisses me off is the area before her... the 1 FULL of fire dart launchers that just shower your entire team in them, Mhenlo/Lina just can't keep up with it.

You can bypass that area with the darts completely. Just take the little passageway to the left, fight one or two groups of easy baddies, and there you are at the boss lock.

The area that gets me is the area right before where you get the boss key - the room with all the poison darts and the seemingly endless spawning of enemies. Eventually the constant degen is just too much for the hench monks. I've been doing suidice runs in just to kill the semi-boss, grab the key, get party-wiped and res at the nearest shrine, then run straight to the boss for an easy kill (dazed/interrupts ftw).

Anyway, to the point of the thread, as with any new area, there are surprises in GW:EN that will confound standard builds and strategies. New enemies have unusual skill bars and defenses. I would say that the new surprises in GW:EN can result in party wipes for unprepared parties faster than they did in the other chapters, particularly with the dungeon end bosses. I personally was insta-killed by bosses a number of times my first time through, along with most of my party. Learning from those situations and coming back with improved builds and strategies makes everything much easier. But even with lots and lots of DP, and even with subpar team and individual builds, just about every area in GW:EN should still be doable with persistence (except perhaps Slavers Exile).

Eadric · Sep 13, 2007, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanok Odbrook

This is not to mention that little area where the rabbits are, then up appears about two dozen Vettiens or whatever the heck they are called - I really appreaciated that near instantaneous party wipe.

That one was great, I loved it. Of course I had read the "Wanted Poster" before hand and knew something was up but it didn't prevent a party wipe. I for one enjoy surprises like that.

Miss Persephone · Sep 13, 2007, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Actually I found most of EotN pretty easy, can do pretty much anywhere with 2 humans and 6 heroes. Full human teams haven't caused me any troubles so far either...Don't think I've managed full 60% DP anywhere, so I'll try share my experiences.

If you die a lot , then you may wish to look at your monks and healing bars. I generally take a heal monk, a prot monk, and a rest/communing rit for the heals. If you find yourself dying fast when you go into battle, your monk bars need fixed. If you find the battle is rather more prolonged and your healing capabilities are getting streched, you need to do more damage, quicker. If I see a paticularly large group, I'll manually put up some of the rt spirits first, manually prot one char to run in and take some initial aggro and then follow up.

I don't think the monsters have been made ridiculously high level and hard hitting. You could say that of the Domain of Anguish perhaps, but certainly not EotN. I saw much more intelligent monster bars in EotN, with more hard rezzes and quite a few skill bars I recognised as having run myself. Made me smile seeing quite a few of those bars actually.

I think the reason some people are failing so badly in EotN, is that these are the people who either

a) have one main character and don't play any other professions, so they don't know how to set up heroes, or to judge other party members skill bars
or
b) have lots of different characters and professions but have never really mastered any of them, only picking up a selection of skills along the way

Personally, I play a lot of different professions, I have virtually all skills ingame unlocked, so I have a pretty good knowledge of skills, for spellcasters especially. It definitely helps for synergising a good team.

For example: my SS nec hero brings blood rit to help the monks and rit, and barbs/mark of pain to help the damage the minions do. My jagged bones MM helps deflect damage away from the party using the minions as bait, whilst dealing considerable damage with them. I carry a selection of interupts to help shut down heavy hitting and heavy healing enemies, frequently locking heroes targets and pinging for other party members. My monks carry interupts and enchant removal to gain energy back and to help the monster dmg output to stay limited. Degen helps against enemies with paticularly high armor levels

I really don't want to be mean and say learn to play, but it just seems that people who find themselves struggling consistently in EotN should go back to the other campaigns and pick up other skills, heroes and play styles. Watch hero skill bars, see how they use their skills and manage energy, don't just leave them to it. Scrutinise all party members skills to check you aren't unnecessarily doubling up skills, or leaving out important capabilities.

Its certainly not a hard expansion, and there is no 'holy trinity' of professions required; wildly different team setups can all be succesful.

FeroxC · Sep 14, 2007, 12:14 AM // 00:14

My problem in dungeons is a horrible mix of DP and a boss, after an time investment of say 2 hours and a real fight to get to the end of a dungeon, only to realise your team is not cut out for killing the lone boss, is very frustraiting.

I dont want to read GuildWiki so i know what to expect, i dont buy strategy guides because i feel it spoils it.

Most of all i dont want to waste 2 hours by resigning.

I shouldnt be able to struggle along for 2 hours then be hopelessly dominated by a boss, dragging out the inevitable for 2 hours is a bad mechanic.

Now we got a problem, how can ANET make the game challenging whilst reducing some of this aggro ?

My solution ? Shorter missions or maybe some kind of halfway system giving you a chance to wipe DP,tweak the skillbars and try again from that point.

Dont give me the "lrn 2 play" speech ive played over 2k hours and completed the previouse 3 campaigns, this is just my opinion on how to make the game better.