Curse

lennymon · Oct 31, 2007, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Actually only skill 1 is armor ignoring, the aoe attack (skill 2) is not armor ignoring. Only the ignorant assume it ignores the armor ignobly. quite frankly I doubt an ursan team is 'easier' than say B/P just that any profession can run it proficiently.

Whiskeyjack · Nov 01, 2007, 12:10 AM // 00:10

Quote:

Ursan is a great skill and as long as it doesn't do any harm it should stay that way. So you've done your FoW and you now ask it to be nerfed. Give everyone else a chance to do it too or why didn't you ask before you completed FoW?

I see, we should have asked for ursan to be nerfed 2 years before GWEN was even released.....interesting contribution.

Reason · Nov 01, 2007, 12:28 AM // 00:28

/notsigned

OMG a Mesmer can kill Mallyx or get his FoW shrine with no descrimination, who cares about balancing PvE, leave it be it is not causing any harm, if you need to get rid of that then get rid of sins because be and my guild do 1.5hr HM FoW with 3 sins and others.

DON'T NERFT IT, IT IS FINE HOW IT IS!

Cobalt · Nov 01, 2007, 01:38 AM // 01:38

I just don't get the mind set some of you have; why in the hell would you want to get a skill nerft that can only help you, be it you using it or someone else in the group?

Like I said in the other thread, wanting this skill nerft is like demanding to shoot your self in the foot, it absolutely makes no sense whatsoever!

The only reason I can possibly think of is some of you do not own EotN and you are jealous of others that have that skill and have busted their butts grinding Norn rep to get the most out of it.

It is the " If I can't have it no one should" syndrome

arcant · Nov 01, 2007, 02:43 AM // 02:43

Nerfing is an attempt to remove unfair advantages that give characters or teams an automatic upperhand against their opponents.

Ursan Blessing may give an advantage for teams in terms of less time needed (to kill mobs and complete quests), ease of formation (because all you need is one skill) and less specific skill needed.

Now let's look at the advantages one by one.

Less time needed - Consumables, such as Essence of Celerity, do that as well. Those that boost health and energy and morale give you substantially more base resources to plough through mobs before you stop to regen.

Ease of formation - Now why would anyone want to remove that?

Less specific skill - Build purists might be aghast at the uniformity of teams, but how are ursan blessing teams different from cookie cutter teams? SF and savannah heat elementalists will always be spamming those skills, SS, SV, Signet of Sorrow (for Duncan in Slavers' Exile especially) necros will always be spamming those skills, and so on. Now we just have another skill to spam: Ursan Strike.

Unfair? To an extent, yes, but so are unconsumables. And it's against mobs, and they're not complaining.

Detrimental to gameplay? This is just another build requiring a certain set of skills. Like all other cookie cutter builds. In a way, this is another build to choose from, and it is refreshing. It isn't -additionally- detrimental, it's just another cookie in the status quo of cookie cutters.

Don't nerf.

arsie · Nov 01, 2007, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Elite dungeons are about aspirations and a sense of achievement. (As well as phat loot)

The problem is that there are two kinds of aspirations, some are just impossible dreams, others are potentially achievable when one improves or works hard at it.

The issue with the old DoA is that, after a few quick wipes, many people regarded it as impossible. That created a barrier to attempting to achieve it.

The sense of achievement is not all about elitism. It is a reward for achieving something, whether that is a high or low achievement is beside the point.

Play any game in Godmode, and you'll know how long that sense of achievement lasts. You'll be popping in a new game pretty soon after finishing it.

The issue with Anet is that it is having a hard time (some say completely failing) balancing the aspirations of doing DoA for the masses, and the sense of achievement of doing it for the truly good players.

The answer is neither the DoA of old, nor Ursanway, unfortunately. I believe both DoA and Ursanway need to be worked at to attempt to bring more people into feeling that DoA is achievable, while rewarding those who worked hard to achive it.

I suspect that Anet will nerf Ursan's Blessing alone, and it may not bridge this divide. Its about critical mass, bringing enough players into the middle ground.

Whirlwind · Nov 01, 2007, 06:32 AM // 06:32

I think people are confusing multiple ursans + multiple consumables with this whole issue. You can do DoA with just a bunch of consumables alone and a balanced team (read: NOT standard DoA group) and not even 1 ursan...

Or you can load up on ursan and use no consumables, or use both. Theres also several new pve skills that help a lot. I think 'ursanway' is getting a bad rap here. So many people say 1 ursan isnt overpowered, not until you get many together. Well when me and my buddy do DoA with just me and him and 6 heroes, i am the ONLY one using ursan and we 'sometimes' take consumables.

Simple fact is there are too many other strats and skills out there now that it just isn't that hard any more. You don't even need ursan or consumables, or a standard DoA team with (yuck) obs tank, eles, BR etc... Its all about strat just as it was in the beginning, only difference is a lot of things have changed.

So take ursan and consumables or dont... sure its a bit easier but its not super hard anyway.. so who cares? Id even be willing to do DoA with no ursan whatsoever and a balanced team nowadays. Only rough part is foundry (only because I haven't ironed that one out yet, but it will go down, just as the other 3 did, its only a matter of time)

TBH iv'e had rougher times in some gw:en dungeons on HM then DoA

tmakinen · Nov 01, 2007, 07:19 AM // 07:19

One thing that people seem to have neglected in the 'UB spoiled DoA' discussion is that the DoA of today is not the same place that it used to be because (1) ANet removed the crippling environmental effects in NM, and (2) consumables (do I have to elaborate?) Therefore, any reasonably well crafted party will now be able to complete it without much hassle. UB is just the simplest of the new cookie cutter memes that are spreading.

Whiskeyjack · Nov 01, 2007, 01:41 PM // 13:41

I am only going to respond to those who appear to have actually read some of the thread.

@arcant- You left out the biggest advantage Ursan has, that it is not subject to counters. If you feel it should be immune to counters please explain why. Also if we were to follow your reasoning TNTF and Seed of life would not have been nerfed.

@arsie-What you say USED to be true, however the DoA of today is not the DoA of old. Any "average" group willing to try non trinity group's will find a way to complete it. Will it be easy? Probably not, however i honestly don't think it needs to be adjusted any further, otherwise it will no longer be an "elite" mission like it is supposed to be. Other than that i agree with what you are saying.

Re consumables- This was brought up earlier in this thread, and in my view has nothing to do with a discussion on UB and will probably end up derailing the thread. If you want to discuss consumables please open a thread to do so, i will be more than happy to discuss why i think they are a bad thing there.

For a while now i have been asking a simple question, do you think ursan strike should be immune to normal counters and if so, why?

So far the only reasoned responses have been from trobinson97 and a couple of others. Most of other responses could be summed up as "omfg teh elitists want to take my skill away!!!"

DivineEnvoy · Nov 01, 2007, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Everyone uses a different arguement technique; some of them will tackle your arguement straight on with their reasons, others will take on your logic and break it down. It doesn't have to be the former to be valid.

What most of us who are using the latter technique are really saying is, there is no gaining to what you are doing here. If you really want to balance PVE, sure, nerf Ursan Blessing. While you are at it, how about give us better Heroes/Henches A.I.'s? You need to consider most people don't have guilds to do pve with, and they have to solo with Heroes/Henches, and it's frustrating: A.I.'s will stand in an AoE, and they will continue to even if you flag them. Ursan Blessing just balance the flaws of A.I.'s.

Now onto the Ursan Blessing groups, with multiple existence of Ursan Blessing, you claim it's too overpowered. Unless A.I. flaws are fixed, nerfing is only a negative affection for the community. The only way I see to fix this is limit the number of Ursan Blessing that is used in the group. Wouldn't that just add frustration to the group? We already have the limits to our pve-only skill and elite skill, now we have a group limit.

There's no point in making additional changes, since they will just make more problems.

No one gains anything from what you are saying here. The affection is rather negative. Your intention is rather questionable. If you read your previous posts, you have not been asking that question for while, instead, you were stating how Ursan Blessing is a negative affection for the rest of the community.

arcant · Nov 01, 2007, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whiskeyjack

@arcant- You left out the biggest advantage Ursan has, that it is not subject to counters. If you feel it should be immune to counters please explain why.

Counters are only applicable in game states which are dynamic, where the skills used can be constantly reviewed and then reacted to accordingly. Counters in PvP are essential, this provides the check and balance needed for fair gameplay. Counters in PvE do not exist without intervention from the programmers.

Mobs are coded with a set of unchanging skills. You might say that the mob's infliction of Dazed inhibits the player's Spells, but the Dazed and the A.I. for using it was pre-established, and the player's usage of Spells is simply subpar.

Another example is the mob's Enchantment Removal that inhibits the full usefulness of Enchantments (e.g. bonding and protective spirit), but once again, the mob A.I. was hardwired, and the player's decision to use Enchantments was with full understanding that they might be removed.

I'll use the analogy of rock-paper-scissors. The A.I. has already thrown a rock. It is up to you to choose. Choosing paper wins rock (you have set up a more superior build), choosing scissors loses to rock (you have set up an inferior build). The A.I. cannot react to you, whatever you choose, because its skills are already established a certain way!

What you mean by "A.I. counter" is simply a conscious decision by the player to use ineffective skills against the A.I. that causes the player to have inherent weaknesses against the mob.

A real life example: Look at the obsidian flesh tank. Does the A.I. counter with non-targeted-spell Enchantment Removal, such as Signet of Disenchantment? No, because its programming doesn't allow it to do so. It is superior to the mob.

Similarly, one of the ways to cripple Ursan Blessing is through energy denial (note that we are talking about PvE and not PvP here, so PvP limitations don't apply). A whole myriad of skills - Debilitating Shot, Quicksand, Signet of Weariness, Energy Surge, etc. can e-deny, and these skills are already being used in PvE. But the current available A.I. we have cannot consciously react and counter UB per se, just like how the A.I. cannot counter the obsidian flesh tank, not unless the programmers change their skills.

Certain skills and builds will always remain superior in certain places, against certain mobs if the A.I. and skills used by the mobs remain the same. A.I. can never counter, so in a way, A.I. doesn't counter anything at all, it just beats your scissors if you so choose to use scissors against its rock. UB just happens to be paper.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whiskeyjack

Also if we were to follow your reasoning TNTF and Seed of life would not have been nerfed.

Include Necrosis too. Sad to say, Anet does not follow my reasoning. Maybe they have a better reasoning than mine for nerfing those skills. They never provided us with a thorough explanation behind those nerfs. I believe the arguments I put forth are valid, and I also trust that they had their concerns which we might not have been aware of, and these concerns outweighed the opinions of the players and led to their decision. What happens to UB is really ultimately up to them.

GloryFox · Nov 01, 2007, 11:38 PM // 23:38

URSAN BLESSING

Because sometimes I just need to Leeroy Jenkins my way through an area.

draxynnic · Nov 02, 2007, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcant

(rock-paper-scissors analogy)

Ursan Blessing isn't paper. It's dynamite. It blows up rock, burns paper, and only scissors can do anything to it (by cutting the fuse)).

Clearly, to continue the analogy, e-denial is scissors. But since most mobs are restricted to paper, scissors, rock, that means that instead of having one win, one loss and one draw with traditional throws, you now have two wins and one loss against the monsters. And since we know what the monsters are going to throw in advance, why throw anything but dynamite when you know the monsters aren't going to throw scissors?

(No, I don't know either whether this post is supposed to be serious or not...)

trobinson97 · Nov 02, 2007, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

And since we know what the monsters are going to throw in advance, why throw anything but dynamite when you know the monsters aren't going to throw scissors?

(No, I don't know either whether this post is supposed to be serious or not...)

Since you know what the monsters are going to do in advance, you are always going to bring the most efficient build you can think of, no matter if you're using UB, Trinity, or whatever. Someone please tell me what difference does it make how someone chooses to kill monster ai?

WhiteWasabi · Nov 02, 2007, 06:10 AM // 06:10

NOBODY can hear the monsters complaining. This skill should be NERFED ASAP.

Cleared UW with Ursan Blessing in 2 hours. No other build I have ever seen can do that. Yes it is overpowered. The monsters need a voice.

UW 2 hours to COMPLETE ALL QUESTS. Nerf this skill.

Shanaeri Rynale · Nov 02, 2007, 06:49 AM // 06:49

Not a bad time, although non Usrsan builds can clear FoW in 1hour 1 min and UW in 1 hour 14(probably less). It's not the fastest way to go through an area, but often it's one that requires the least skill and build awareness.

My main negative about ursan is'nt that it's fun(it is) but that it inherently reduces the need for any team build, thought about skills to take or the subtlty and nuances of a build that make it satisfying to play.

There's something very rewarding about having a team of all sorts of professions, taking those professions skills and integrating them into a kind of synegy that makes everything dovetail in. playing ursan pretty much removes this skill and pleasure and will have a dumbing down effect over a period of time, that would be a sad thing to happen to a game where skill is perported to be the main focus of the game. Ursan takes any profession, turns it into an ursan profession which results in a bland homogenous build with none of the variences people enjoy about their chosen profession. I've played Ursan a couple of times, and while fun(felt like kilroys knockout challenge) it kinda left me feeling almost dirty - lol. It was the most non mesmer I'd ever played. Fun yes, satisfying no.

Ursan by and large does away with this. To my mind it's like PvE IWAY(like old iway that is). Not in itself a bad thing to play every so often, but like any fotm a bad thing for the game and player if played at the expense of other builds.

Lourens · Nov 02, 2007, 06:55 AM // 06:55

I like to Coöperate with others , using ursan once is fun but all the time no thank you

Auron of Neon · Nov 02, 2007, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravi

ursan blessing is not overpowered

lol

lololol

lollllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

ok i'm finished laughing now.

this thread ended on page 1.

Div · Nov 02, 2007, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Ursan blessing is so broken it makes seed of life look balanced. Bring back the old seed of life!!!

Blonde Warrior · Nov 02, 2007, 11:51 AM // 11:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhiteWasabi

NOBODY can hear the monsters complaining. This skill should be NERFED ASAP.

Cleared UW with Ursan Blessing in 2 hours. No other build I have ever seen can do that. Yes it is overpowered. The monsters need a voice.

UW 2 hours to COMPLETE ALL QUESTS. Nerf this skill.

So you complete the underworld using ursanway and now ask for it to be nerfed wtf?