Curse

The Meth · Mar 04, 2008, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Citadel Runner

In normal mode this is my favorite method.
In Hard mode, this method can leave your entire group dead. Even if you get away with their crystal (unlikely, they spike you dead), the minute you place it or drop it, they start running again. So even if your the only one alive, you cannot outcap them.

How could you not get away? 7 other people are providing you cover and you have a speed boost, and they have no snares.

Yes, you can outcap them solo. You just have to either have a perm 33% boost, or to cap at the right times to screw with their own cap strategy. Might take a few minutes to learn when the right times to cap are, but you can easily stalemate them until you find the timing.

Numa Pompilius · Mar 04, 2008, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Guys, no offense, but NM is level 16 enemies without hex and condition removal. Any reasonable hero build can just plow through them.

In HM they're level 24, and the Abbots spam Convert Hexes and Remove Condition like candy dispensers on Halloween. When they're not spamming Shield of Regeneration. And they've all got permanent +33% movement and attack speeds.
It's a bit harder.

Citadel Runner · Mar 07, 2008, 06:12 AM // 06:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

How could you not get away? 7 other people are providing you cover and you have a speed boost, and they have no snares.

Yes, you can outcap them solo. You just have to either have a perm 33% boost, or to cap at the right times to screw with their own cap strategy. Might take a few minutes to learn when the right times to cap are, but you can easily stalemate them until you find the timing.

Heres how you cannot get away.

If you go in with your whole group, you will be stuck fighting the entire mob. You will all die. You cannot run because they will follow you. Remember, this is hard mode, so you won't lose aggro. Speed boost doesnt do much with the crystal in your hands. If you flag all your heroes and henchies with them, but somehow get away successfully yourself while your HH team is fighting (unlikely), you have no more heroes and henchies, unless you get lucky enough to go back in and res your dead team without re aggroing the mob. In fact, anytime you want to show me that you can do it, Ill pay you 50K if your successful.

As far as outcapping them......yes, I agree it can be done. But not mission and bonus together. Not in hard mode, not without killing them all off first. Which is exactly why I and most everyone else in this thread are suggesting the method Marty and Numa mentioned first.

Knightly Bird · Mar 24, 2008, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Throw your ursans into aggro and make sure they can tank dam well. I did this with a party of 3 people and h/h, but i'll explain how we did it.

First round: Wall up the monsters, and tank while a runner does the crystals for the mission, I ran all 3 crystals with r10 ursan(+33% speed boost) and we finished the mission(even though all my party died, I still had more time to cap all the shrines before the mantle could replace it)

Second round: Same thing, wall up the monsters and tank... the group that tanks takes the first crystal and puts it in the first far left shrine, and as soon as they put it there, the "runner(ursan)" takes a new crystal and puts it in the middle shrine, this buys you some time. An assassin, or a r10 ursan can solo the Demagogue, you just have to make sure everything is aggroed outside of the area and then you go near the far right shrine and theres a shortcut to the Demagogue, and he is fairly easy to take down(I solo ursan'd him)

Tarkin · Mar 26, 2008, 01:32 PM // 13:32

This the only mission in tyria i dont make only with h/h call for help from a guildmate i run the first crystal, while he wait in crystal spawn point, get the crystal and run to another shrine while i run get the passage and kill Demagogue solo, return and we just run all crystals without killing any foe...

Dont forget to bring running skills... ehehehe

If you, cant find someone to help you and want bonus i think fight them is the only exit, but you need some strong build for it... bring some slowdown skills and something special to deal with monks, they heal good...

I start a thought discussion with a guy in another Thread about, ursan, brains, and ability in the same line dont mix, but if you use ursan and use the skill to KD the foe with the crystal he cant use the altar and and eventualy will die, soon they dont have no one more to bring crystals and eventualy you can kill all foes and demagogue...

Or make a build to slowdown and kill the guy with the crystal, you can use hexes and criple to slow, i suggest to you to use some necro hexes that cut healing [skill]Defile Flesh[/skill][skill]Malign Intervention[/skill][skill]Mark of Death[/skill]... if you use 2 of these hexes in th guy with crystal the monk simple cant heal... and is easy to kill any foe.

If you want to run, is good to use sin skills to shadow step... flag heros in midle of way of altars and use enchants to shadow step... dont flag heros in the way of foes...

Sorry my weak english...

GaladrielMoloch · Mar 30, 2008, 09:07 AM // 09:07

for bonus: attune middle crystal and flag everyone to far left (forget which direction it is on compass but consider left if you are facing the white mantle camp), make sure you have running skills (1-2 should be fine)

get a new crystal and attune the far left one, and the white mantle should begin to send waves of people there to fight you (and runners). if they have capped the middle crystal during this time, you need to recap it.

on your character bring some kds and cripples and any decent balanced set-up shouldn't have any troubles with the mantle groups

iirc my group consisted of:
ranger (me) prep shot fueling conc & you move like a dwarf
DA para hero
JB minion bomber w/aegis
N/Rt w/Icy Veins
Healer Hench
Fire Hench

Numa Pompilius · Mar 30, 2008, 12:59 PM // 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by GaladrielMoloch

..how to...

That worked for you in hard mode? Because that tactic will mean that you take on the entire White Mantle army at once, which works fine in normal mode, but to me would seem like suicide in hard mode.

The Meth · Mar 30, 2008, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Citadel Runner

Heres how you cannot get away.
If you go in with your whole group, you will be stuck fighting the entire mob. You will all die. You cannot run because they will follow you. Remember, this is hard mode, so you won't lose aggro. Speed boost doesnt do much with the crystal in your hands. If you flag all your heroes and henchies with them, but somehow get away successfully yourself while your HH team is fighting (unlikely), you have no more heroes and henchies, unless you get lucky enough to go back in and res your dead team without re aggroing the mob. In fact, anytime you want to show me that you can do it, Ill pay you 50K if your successful.
As far as outcapping them......yes, I agree it can be done. But not mission and bonus together. Not in hard mode, not without killing them all off first. Which is exactly why I and most everyone else in this thread are suggesting the method Marty and Numa mentioned first.

Does the fact that I got my guardian title that way count? Cause thats what I did after two tries when 2 or 3 of the monks in the main group decided to come at me from 2x the aggro circle radius, making the white mantle a 4 uber monk group. As I couldn't get my heroes to pull far enough away to stop this, I decided a bit of finesse would make due instead of brute forcing my way through their whole army so painfully slowly.

You can get away, you just have to be out of their aggro before they finish killing the last hench/hero. That way when they are done with the rest of your group and are looking for another target, they don't see you. Unless the rest of your party is wearing pre searing paper armor, they should take more then 5 seconds to die and thats all you need to get in and out

After you get out you don't need to go back in and res your group, you just finish the capping. After the cutscene all party members are revived.

I would take you up on your 50k offer but I don't really have any need for money. Care to wager your guild wars cred?

GaladrielMoloch · Mar 30, 2008, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

That worked for you in hard mode? Because that tactic will mean that you take on the entire White Mantle army at once, which works fine in normal mode, but to me would seem like suicide in hard mode.

yes. if you take the middle spot where its a choke point, they come a lot faster and its a lot harder, being on the far left gives you a lot more time to deal with the groups (I believe each group comes when the previous group is at 50%) + the runner groups. They are mantle, and their setups arent that rape in HM. if the abbots are really giving you trouble, take rend enchants to remove the SoR, otherwise passive defence is win

aznpride4life · Mar 31, 2008, 03:53 AM // 03:53

thanks for these tips,i need help on this too.

Citadel Runner · Apr 02, 2008, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Does the fact that I got my guardian title that way count? Cause thats what I did after two tries when 2 or 3 of the monks in the main group decided to come at me from 2x the aggro circle radius, making the white mantle a 4 uber monk group. As I couldn't get my heroes to pull far enough away to stop this, I decided a bit of finesse would make due instead of brute forcing my way through their whole army so painfully slowly.

You can get away, you just have to be out of their aggro before they finish killing the last hench/hero. That way when they are done with the rest of your group and are looking for another target, they don't see you. Unless the rest of your party is wearing pre searing paper armor, they should take more then 5 seconds to die and thats all you need to get in and out

After you get out you don't need to go back in and res your group, you just finish the capping. After the cutscene all party members are revived.

I would take you up on your 50k offer but I don't really have any need for money. Care to wager your guild wars cred?

Yes, I will wager my guild wars cred.

As you know (at least you should know), assuming you steal their crystal in HM without dying (which I am claiming is impossible without killing most of them first), you then need to do something with it. You claim you can just leave your team dead, without rezzing them, and escape. I say you cannot. But even if you do, what next?
You must do something with their crystal. If you stand their and do nothing, nothing happens (You have their crystal, they are essentially frozen). But you need to place crystals to win. If you drop their crystal, OR place it on any tower, they start running again. Since you are now solo (Your team is dead as you claimed), you cannot kill them OR outrun them. Anyway, by the time you even get back there, they only need to place one more crystal. You need to place three. And you need to use theirs, or drop it, to do that. What now? LOL.

And, since the back corridor is now filled with spread out hard mode foes, how do you intend to get the bonus? You have to get the bonus first, or you can't get it at all. Even if you had a 100% speed buff, and you could place all the crystals, you would fail the bonus. And even if you could place all he crystals and pause the game (which you can't), you would die going through the foes to try to solo the hard mode demagogue. Man, you got yourself into a real tizzy here.

Once again, in normal mode stealing the crystal is great. You run in, take it, and then slowly kill off the entire hoard while still holding the crystal. Then you get the bonus, then you place the crystals. In hard mode, this will not work.

See, the point is to get the bonus and the mission in one shot. Which, once again, is why Marty and Numas methods mentioned earlier are perfect.

Yep, Ill bet my guild wars cred and give you 50K. Give it someone as a gift since you have "no need for money".

Bring it man, bring it.

jhu · Apr 03, 2008, 05:10 AM // 05:10

easiest way: kill the warthog that's after the gate, use necrotic traversal to get to the other side, solo the demagogue, attune the crystals with no one around.

Citadel Runner · Apr 03, 2008, 05:25 AM // 05:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhu

easiest way: kill the warthog that's after the gate, use necrotic traversal to get to the other side, solo the demagogue, attune the crystals with no one around.

Yes, that is for sure the easiest way. But the only problem is that that warthog only spawns about 20% of the time. I know people who have fought all the way to that gate 30 times in a row with no warthog. Who has time for that?

viens87 · Apr 03, 2008, 11:50 AM // 11:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Citadel Runner

Yes, that is for sure the easiest way. But the only problem is that that warthog only spawns about 20% of the time. I know people who have fought all the way to that gate 30 times in a row with no warthog. Who has time for that?

im with u

i get this frog on 9x time ..

but i can do 30 timers because i realy want this mision do with my mesmer ;]

i kill demagog with 2 skills , 3th skill was travelsat to get there :]

The Meth · Apr 03, 2008, 12:49 PM // 12:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Citadel Runner

Yes, I will wager my guild wars cred.

As you know (at least you should know), assuming you steal their crystal in HM without dying (which I am claiming is impossible without killing most of them first), you then need to do something with it. You claim you can just leave your team dead, without rezzing them, and escape. I say you cannot. But even if you do, what next?
You must do something with their crystal. If you stand their and do nothing, nothing happens (You have their crystal, they are essentially frozen). But you need to place crystals to win. If you drop their crystal, OR place it on any tower, they start running again. Since you are now solo (Your team is dead as you claimed), you cannot kill them OR outrun them. Anyway, by the time you even get back there, they only need to place one more crystal. You need to place three. And you need to use theirs, or drop it, to do that. What now? LOL.

And, since the back corridor is now filled with spread out hard mode foes, how do you intend to get the bonus? You have to get the bonus first, or you can't get it at all. Even if you had a 100% speed buff, and you could place all the crystals, you would fail the bonus. And even if you could place all he crystals and pause the game (which you can't), you would die going through the foes to try to solo the hard mode demagogue. Man, you got yourself into a real tizzy here.

Once again, in normal mode stealing the crystal is great. You run in, take it, and then slowly kill off the entire hoard while still holding the crystal. Then you get the bonus, then you place the crystals. In hard mode, this will not work.

See, the point is to get the bonus and the mission in one shot. Which, once again, is why Marty and Numas methods mentioned earlier are perfect.

Yep, Ill bet my guild wars cred and give you 50K. Give it someone as a gift since you have "no need for money".

Bring it man, bring it.

You kill the demagogue before you steal the crystal, with your whole team behind you. He is very easy to aggro alone. And yes, it is perfectly possible to out cap them with 1 person if you have speed buffs. I'll try to get a few screen shots later today.

The Meth · Apr 03, 2008, 04:43 PM // 16:43

And here are the pics:

The first pic shows the bonus being finished, me getting away. Would have been a lot cleaner get away if the minions hadn't aggroed the white mantle before demagogue was dead, but pain inverter and insidious parasite did its job while i ran away. Since the minions decided to be nub and aggroed the whole group, I didn't bother stealing the crystal, since their cap group was delayed

second and third show me capping all 3 shrines, solo

fourth shows right after the cutscene, where the rest of the party is ressed with 1 health.

You don't even HAVE to aggro their group, you can just get ahead in capping, go kill demagogue, then catch up in the capping game and win. No deaths at all.

Its probably also possible to cap with only a 25% movement speed boost, or a less then 100% coverage 33% boost. I had tons of spare time, it would have taken them at least 7-8 seconds more to cap at the end there.

Citadel Runner · Apr 04, 2008, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

And here are the pics:

The first pic shows the bonus being finished, me getting away. Would have been a lot cleaner get away if the minions hadn't aggroed the white mantle before demagogue was dead, but pain inverter and insidious parasite did its job while i ran away. Since the minions decided to be nub and aggroed the whole group, I didn't bother stealing the crystal, since their cap group was delayed

second and third show me capping all 3 shrines, solo

fourth shows right after the cutscene, where the rest of the party is ressed with 1 health.

You don't even HAVE to aggro their group, you can just get ahead in capping, go kill demagogue, then catch up in the capping game and win. No deaths at all.

Its probably also possible to cap with only a 25% movement speed boost, or a less then 100% coverage 33% boost. I had tons of spare time, it would have taken them at least 7-8 seconds more to cap at the end there.

Thats cool, and you did a good job. Yes, I agree that without stealing the crystal, you can run back there and kill the demagogue.

But, you did not steal their crystal. If you had, you would also be dead. Again, I am stating that a person cannot steal the foe's crystal solo in hard mode and also win bonus and mission.

But even so, the first picture shows you running behind the group and killing the demagogue, your HH team agroes the mob (not your fault, it would take some quick flagging to avoid this), and they all die but you live. The first picture shows the mantle mob at the West pedestal, which means the East pedestal already has a mantle crystal on it, and they will next go for the North pedestal (the one where you first enter) next.

Next you claim that from there, you run out and place three crystals before the mantle mob places just one more.
(Because in your picture the white mantle are about to get their third crystal and be on their way to placing it on their last shrine closest to where you first come in. They always place crystals in the following order...East, West, North).

So somehow, you run from in back, all the way up to the front (near north pedestal) to get another crystal passing the mantle group on the way, and then run past them again to the East Pedestal before they get to the North pedestal? I doubt it.

Im curious as to why in pictures 135 and 138 there are absolutely no foes anywhere on the map? Where did they go? Since you immediately go to the cutscene after placing all the crystals, you have not yet placed the last one. However, the picture shows that the mantle have not even captured the East pedestal. The one they always take first.

I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that the chat in picture one is totally different than the chat in pictures 2, 3, and 4.

OOOPS! Thats embarrasing.

LOL. Anyway, I do commend you on trying new techniques. Good luck man.

The Meth · Apr 04, 2008, 02:43 AM // 02:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Citadel Runner

Thats cool, and you did a good job. Yes, I agree that without stealing the crystal, you can run back there and kill the demagogue.
But, you did not steal their crystal. If you had, you would also be dead. Again, I am stating that a person cannot steal the foe's crystal solo in hard mode and also win bonus and mission.

Its perfectly possible to steal the crystal, there was a mistake that screwed it up, BUT as I pointed out, you don't even need to steal the crystal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Citadel Runner

But even so, the first picture shows you running behind the group and killing the demagogue, your HH team agroes the mob (not your fault, it would take some quick flagging to avoid this), and they all die but you live. The first picture shows the mantle mob at the West pedestal, which means the East pedestal already has a mantle crystal on it, and they will next go for the North pedestal (the one where you first enter) next.
Next you claim that from there, you run out and place three crystals before the mantle mob places just one more.
(Because in your picture the white mantle are about to get their third crystal and be on their way to placing it on their last shrine closest to where you first come in. They always place crystals in the following order...East, West, North). So somehow, you run from in back, all the way up to the front (near north pedestal) to get another crystal passing the mantle group on the way, and then run past them again to the East Pedestal before they get to the North pedestal? I doubt it.

I cap the West shrine on the way to kill demagogue, that buys me more then enough time. I didn't claim that, they do cap some times, I just cap faster and smarter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Citadel Runner

Im curious as to why in pictures 135 and 138 there are absolutely no foes anywhere on the map? Where did they go? Since you immediately go to the cutscene after placing all the crystals, you have not yet placed the last one. However, the picture shows that the mantle have not even captured the East pedestal. The one they always take first.

They are outside the map range, getting their next crystal. I had already captured the east pedestal, and only needed the north one. Picture 138 is actually taken in the small lag time between placing the third crystal and the cutscene. The large purple stone in the middle only shows up after you place the third crystal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Citadel Runner

I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that the chat in picture one is totally different than the chat in pictures 2, 3, and 4.

OOOPS! Thats embarrasing.

Lagged out after killing the demagogue in the first run, thereby failing the mission. In the second, a whole, full white mantle group spawned by the bonus npc, which means the bonus didn't get counted. I think you can hardly blame me for not doing the mission a 3rd time, since the pictures still prove its possible to assassinate the demagogue and then outcap them solo. Do you deny that I killed the demagogue? Do you deny that I outcapped them alone? No? I win.

If you want further proof, I can do it again with you in tow. Have the 50k ready though

Citadel Runner · Apr 04, 2008, 03:10 AM // 03:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

the pictures still prove its possible to assassinate the demagogue and then outcap them solo. Do you deny that I killed the demagogue? Do you deny that I outcapped them alone? No? I win.

If you want further proof, I can do it again with you in tow. Have the 50k ready though

Yes, I know that in hard mode you can kill the demagogue solo, and I know you can outcap them solo. Its not easy, and I give you a lot of credit for accomplishing it. But, as I keep trying to tell you, you cannot do both in Hard mode UNLESS you kill all the foes first. You cannot do it in Hard Mode by stealing the foes crystal.
What the pictures prove is that you cannot do it at the same time. Thats why you used pictures from different instances.

Thats been my point from the beginning.

Ill look for you in game. I know its certainly a pain to get to that part of the mission, but we can blaze through with me as Rank 10 ursan at least. Then you can show me. I also know a way to force the bonus to always be available and will show you this (you may already know it). I wish, as Im sure you do, that we could try it over and over without having to spend 15 minute to get down there. The mission is actually a lot of fun to try new methods on.

The Meth · Apr 04, 2008, 03:51 AM // 03:51

I'll look for you ingame when I'm on, I am assuming you IGN is the same name you use here?

The bonus person was literally impossible to save. I had never seen this spawn before, but an actual group spawned back there and killed him before I could see him. The two warriors normally there stood around doing nothing but 2 savants and another warrior killed him while I was still on the first groups. I think I am just very, very unlucky

Thinking about it now, I believe with some proper flagging I could possibly get the heroes to solo demagogue themseleves while I am capping.

I am 100% certain stealing the crystal is possible. Whether the first time I did it (a year ago) was a stroke of luck is up for debate, as it was a spur of the moment idea. In any case, I proved it is not needed anyway.