Curse

ChristopherKee · May 16, 2005, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Frenzy in pickup matches. Beserker vs organized guilds.

Sausaletus Rex · May 16, 2005, 03:34 PM // 15:34

It's not 1.33 seconds. It's one and a third. It's fractional. You don't make 6.0015 and so on attacks in 8 seconds normally. You make exactly six - no more, no less.

And it's not 0.88 seconds, it's eight ninths. It's just easier to deal with only a few decimal places, though, but the closer you get to those fractional ideas, the more the value of swings you can make in the span of eight seconds approaches a full nine.

Also, thanks to the way the game works, it appears that starting a swing with increased attack speed carries over even after it ends. So even if you can't finish that 9th swing exactly by the time Frenzy elapses, it should still be faster than your normal one. Frenzy is more accurately described as IAS for the attacks you can begin in those 8 seconds, not the attacks you can complete.

Either way, as Dreamsmith points out, you get 3 attacks for every 2 you would have made and that's a difference of 150%.

Willow · May 16, 2005, 04:51 PM // 16:51

I wish Frenzy was worded a little more clear so that I didn't have to remember that -33%=+50%. (Like "You attack 50% more often")

I might have to go back to using it. I was using it back when I thought I took more damage, but it didn't matter since I was such a beast.

Sausaletus Rex · May 16, 2005, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Attacking 50% more often would double your damage output, though. :P

Epinephrine · May 16, 2005, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sausaletus Rex

Attacking 50% more often would double your damage output, though. :P

I think he means "You get a 50% increase in the number of attacks per unit time" or some such

In fact, he was correct - he said 50% more often, a measure of frequency - and the frequency of attacks is up 50%.

Instead of phrasing it in terms of seconds/attack (attack speed) phrasing it in terms of attacks/second (attack frequency/rate)

Dreamsmith · May 16, 2005, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

I think he means "You get a 50% increase in the number of attacks per unit time" or some such

In fact, he was correct - he said 50% more often, a measure of frequency - and the frequency of attacks is up 50%.

Instead of phrasing it in terms of seconds/attack (attack speed) phrasing it in terms of attacks/second (attack frequency/rate)

Oy, I think that would make it more confusing, even if it did make the IAS % and the DPS % line up.

Doctor Anomalo · May 16, 2005, 06:21 PM // 18:21

what the hell is going on here? here is what flurry says:

for 8 seconds, you attack 33% faster but take double damage.

by definition, attack speed = # of swings per second (fractional allowed).
by definition, attacking 33% faster means your attack speed is increased by 33%, which means new attack speed = old attack speed + 33% of old attack speed = 1.33 of old attack speed.

now, by definition, damage per second = # of swings per second times damage per swing = attack speed times damage per swing.

so new damage per second = new attack speed times damage per swing = 1.33 of old attack speed times damage per swing = 1.33 of old damage per second.

the definitions are begin misinterpreted in the previous posts. attacking 33% faster does not mean you fit the same number of swings into a 33% shorter time frame. for example, it is definitely possible to attack 100% faster. does this mean you fit the same number of swings into 0 seconds? no! it means you swing twice the number in the same time frame which means the same number in half the time.

conclusion: attacking 33% faster means an increase of 33% to your damage per second.

Harkonis · May 16, 2005, 08:46 PM // 20:46

It is indeed 50% increase in dps.

If you take a 4 second window and 1 second attack speed you get

0
1 10 damage
2 10 damage
3 10 damage
4 10 damage

40 damage

Now with frenzy, each attack takes ~.66 of a second

0
.66 10 damage
1.32 10 damage
1.98 10 damage
2.64 10 damage
3.3 10 damage
3.96 10 damage

60 damage

60 damage is 50% higher than 40 damage

edit: I see what the above post is saying as well. I'm leaving my errant math unedited to show my confusion. heh This is why I hated math in school.

but this still confuses me! lol If you can swing 1.33 times per second with frenzy, that means in 3 seconds you swing 4 times. Without you swing 3 times in 3 seconds. So you are getting one extra swing every 3 seconds which is 33% more damage. Is that correct?

Doctor Anomalo · May 16, 2005, 09:00 PM // 21:00

your edited comment is correct. using 1/3 to approximate .33, 1+1/3 = 4/3 so if you regularly swing 3 times in 3 seconds, then you will now swing 4 times in 3 seconds.

Epinephrine · May 16, 2005, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doctor Anomalo

what the hell is going on here? here is what flurry says:

...
by definition, attack speed = # of swings per second (fractional allowed).
...

conclusion: attacking 33% faster means an increase of 33% to your damage per second.

It depends entirely on how the developers code it. Many games give wrong definitions, and there is a difference between attack/time and time/attack. If by "33% faster" they mean "time per attack is reduced by 33%" then it is absolutely corrrect that it boosts DPS by 50%. Having used Frenzy, I had the impression that I was attacking more than 4/3rds as often, more like 3/2, so I tend to believe that that's how the developers coded it.

Doctor Anomalo · May 16, 2005, 11:11 PM // 23:11

faster should be a measure of speed, which means quantity per second. however, since so many people are unsure, perhaps the developers were too and they coded it according to their definition. so epinephrine may very well be correct. we need empirical evidence to verify what it really is.

sino-soviet · May 16, 2005, 11:15 PM // 23:15

I always thought frenzy was an absolute necessity for PVP warriors...

xakia · May 17, 2005, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by xakia

berserker stance...ill never use frenzy again.

try the outpost...the one just NW of Droknar's Forge i think.

Port Sledge(sp?)....SW of Droknar's.Sorry.

Quarantine · May 17, 2005, 02:05 PM // 14:05

what about Flurry?

roselan · May 17, 2005, 02:08 PM // 14:08

I'm a ranger/warrior. expertise allows me too have frenzy always on. sure, as soon as i have some playfull woma on my back, I switch for a defensive stance.

by keeping frenzy "on", I can still spam two other attack skillz in loop. bazically: frenzy/skill one/skill two/normal attack... I can plug one or two normal attack if I use a short bow at close range.

Even then, it still doesn't make a dent on wamos (even with penetrating shoot and power shoot) :P but monks/caster go down usually... as long as I'm left quiet (which is... one time on ten?

)

Deku · May 17, 2005, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

it is definitely possible to attack 100% faster. does this mean you fit the same number of swings into 0 seconds

Well 100% is by definition everything so when something is modified by 100% it is either reduced to 0 or doubled. If you have an attack speed of 5 secs then 100% of 5 is 5 so your new speed would be 0. Just like if you eat 100% of a cake there is no more cake left.

WNxTyphoon · May 17, 2005, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbkilla

frenzy sucks need I say more?

In Real PvP (tombs/GvG) Frenzy = best.

It's a win win situation with Frenzy:

If nobody is attacking you, you get 50% more damage with no drawback.

If someone is attacking you, then they aren't attacking a target that is actually worth attacking

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quarantine

what about Flurry?

If you are in dire need of creating adrenaline (or are running an IW build) I can see a use in Flurry. Otherwise, it just doesn't make sense. A warrior's sole purpose is to do damage. Don't decrease it

Ensign · May 17, 2005, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doctor Anomalo

what the hell is going on here?

They're brutalizing technical jargon. 33% faster *should* mean what you say it means, but the simple fact is that it doesn't. 33% faster doesn't actually mean 33% faster in GW, it means 33% less swing speed, which means 50% more damage.

Yeah, it's dumb, but that's how it works.

Peace,
-CxE

Erasmus · May 18, 2005, 08:29 PM // 20:29

erm 33% faster or 33% less swing speed both mean 50% more damage compared to none at all. Its the same thing. Unless you take it to mean how fast it moves during a swing, with the same time between swings... which would be pointless .

It simply inverts the fraction. 2/3 swing speed ( 1/3 faster swing speed) = 3/2 = 1.5

If it reduced swing speed by 10% then it would be 100/90 = 11% increase.

25% reduction in swing speed = 100/75 = 33% increase.

etc...

Doctor Anomalo · May 18, 2005, 09:30 PM // 21:30

to summarize for those who don't want to look through the whole thread, the issue is whether the developers are increasing swings per time or decreasing the time per swing.

33% increase of swings per time is not the same as 33% decrease of the time per swing. as has been worked out by others in this thread, 33% decrease of the time per swing leads to 50% increase of swings per time.

that's all we can say until there is evidence of which is implemented in the game. but it seems everyone believes it is the time per swing being decreased.