Curse

Xellos · May 31, 2005, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Typhoon

Frozen soil affects every single person within range of the spirit, both friendly and enemy. All nature rituals behave like this, which is why you don't see many rangers using nature rituals.

Nature Rituals would be more viable if they severely nerfed the range on a few of them, so that you can have strategic control over which area of players get buffed. I'd rather see quickening Zephyr have a much smaller range, that way you can drop it next to your own caster group for buffs, and not have it reach across the battlefield to the enemy caster group and buff them as well.

But range is a very iffy topic. Depending on the effect, it can be useful, useless, or overpowering. The nature of nature rituals is not easily balanced ho ho a pun :P

Dred Skullord · May 31, 2005, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

It simply isn't a mission-critical class in organized PvP. Couple that with it being both the hands down most popular class in the game and the most badly played class in the game, and you have all the ingredients for a character that's treated more as a warm body than a critical component of a team.

Couple all this with the aformentioned point about Rangers not specializing nearly as well as the other classes, and you have a niche character that fills key holes on a team, not a cornerstone build that people work around.

Peace,
-CxE

Ensign is right again. A ranger gives you level 70 armor, continuous high damage output and disruption (i.e you can shutdown a caster and then kill him). The ranger also does not have the shortcomings as a warrior, namely melee and narrow attack range. The poison arrow/ tiger's fury/ savage shot are staples for any group. Personally, I would rather see an enemy monk dead than shutdown by my team's mesmer.

Xellos · May 31, 2005, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dred Skullord

Ensign is right again. A ranger gives you level 70 armor, continuous high damage output and disruption (i.e you can shutdown a caster and then kill him). The ranger also does not have the shortcomings as a warrior, namely melee and narrow attack range. The poison arrow/ tiger's fury/ savage shot are staples for any group. Personally, I would rather see an enemy monk dead than shutdown by my team's mesmer.

If you read on though..........

A dead enemy monk is alot easier said then done. Shut down is alot easier.

Leventh · May 31, 2005, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sting

Not really groups that do have a ranger is more the exception, most go without a ranger and do quite well (unless they are all lying when they say they dont want or need a ranger in the group). Most of the time a Ranger is picked for his/her secondary skill. Support classes are not really needed because they can pickup the "support" skills needed from someones secondary.

Most go without a ranger.. i have yet to see a rangerless group (maybe cause im one but still!)..

Howling Wind · May 31, 2005, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Alot of people here are going in to the discussion of i'd rather pick him over a ranger cause he can do it better but that's the point, Rangers aren't suppose to take place of another class but merely support it. If your mesmer is too busy dealing with other opponents and there is free monk or ele left then you can get a ranger to pull out a arcane conundrum + concussion shot or disabling shot combo which ever is available. Then just keep hitting it until a you can kill it or another party member takes care of them like your mesmer or warrior. The main plus side of concussion shot is the dazed effect which is a condition will always help you prevent casting and land distractig shot or any other disabling shot, so your almost shutting down the monk or ele for that time period.

Don't confuse with rangers trying to take place of another class because they can't specialize as well but using the jack of all trades theme, it can backup and support a few classes, so a R/Mo can support the mesmer with interuption, aid in the healing with a monk and help dish out damage along with a warrior. Its hard for rangers to be seen as great effective PvP classes but we just have to wait and see what the game developers do to make it seem more effective (hopefully they can undo the nerfing of skills).

Dred Skullord · May 31, 2005, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xinil

Has anyone EVER seen this in their PvP career in the tombs? I sure haven't. I'll tell you what I see a shitload of:

Group needs Warrior!
Group needs 3 (THREE) monks
Group needs 2 Air Eles
Group needs Mes
Group needs Necro

I have never seen a PvP group look for a Necro. Regarding earlier posts, a ranger can interrupt and then kill a caster, preferably a monk. Other threads have shown that the tiger's fury ranger has more damage output per minute than any elementalist. I laugh whenever I go up against a team that has Necros and Elementalists. Ha-ha-ha. Kill 'em all.

Typhoon · Jun 01, 2005, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xellos

But range is a very iffy topic. Depending on the effect, it can be useful, useless, or overpowering. The nature of nature rituals is not easily balanced ho ho a pun :P

With their current design, a spirit will blanket an entire battlefield and equally buff both opposing teams, thus nullifying any noticeable edge for either side. If nature rituals continue to work this way, you won't see much of them in high level PvP. Their inflexibility against unknown teams and overall lack of advantages in PvP makes them a weak skill choice.

If the buff range on spirits was severely limited to allow strategic placement, then both spirits and rangers would be increasingly desirable in PvP. It's still easy to kill a spirit, interrupt its casting, or even force an opposing team to change positions and move outside its range(if range was decreased).

Spirits should also have a visual drawing of their effect radius, like the one given to wards.

Nessaja · Jun 01, 2005, 01:07 AM // 01:07

thing with rangers... lets just face it. Many people hoped to get an Amazon (Diablo 2) or Rogue (WoW). Rangers are just different. The bows were nerfed to an extend because of their higher range. Their pets were nerfed to the point that you need 16 points in beast mastery and 8 beast mastery skills to be somewhat effective (understandable, as you're not in harms way).

The only parts of the ranger that truly shine are the expertise and wilderness survival skilltree. Both of these skilltrees are more about staying allive, and modifying then offense.

When people expect that play characters that can use a machine gun and end up with a character that needs to use terrain and modifies attacks/surroundings and is everything but straightforward, then people feel cheated. A class like the warrior that is what people expected is a lot easier to accept.

Now.... needless to say, ofcourse there are good rangers out there. I've had a 3 ranger party with over 50 wins in the arena. Figuring out what your role is as a ranger is a lot harder then with other classes, it's a lot more dependand on your secondary then it is with other classes, as your important skilltrees are there to modify the rest of you, lots of stances, preperations, traps and spirits.

For instance, a R/W can be an amazing build, heck, I'm as biased as it gets but when I slaughter Mesmers, necros elementalists and am able to 1vs1 Warriors at the same time. Note, I play this as a melee ranger.

R/Me is likely one of the best interrupters anti-casters in the game, though I personally dont see a lot of reasons to pick it over Mesmer primary, armor would play a role, and I'd guess whirling defense... when you're interrupting anyway you might aswell use fast cast but that might be me.

R/Mo seems a lot more geared to PvE.. barrage + Judge Insight. Judge's Insight in general is an amazing skill for rangers, like Weaken Armor is for R/W.

R/N and R/E seem to be good aswell, R/N mostly geared towards damage dealing to single target and a R/E would be an AOE master. Both of these do not need expertise for them to work though.

In this perspective, rangers are a lot different then other classes, just because their secondary decides their playstyle. A W/N practicly has the same "playstyle" as a W/Mo, and an Mo/E is the same idea as a Mo/Me

Macel · Jun 01, 2005, 01:44 PM // 13:44

I'm a R/E, and no I'm not an AOE master... But I can tank better than most warriors. And I can do better single target damage than many elementalists. I hardly think I am gimped.

Mercury Rivenswift · Jun 01, 2005, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macel

I'm a R/E, and no I'm not an AOE master... But I can tank better than most warriors. And I can do better single target damage than many elementalists. I hardly think I am gimped.

Talk when you get out of Old Ascalon Arena lol. Seriously, I read this quote and laughed. Give me a break. Where are all these "leet" rangers? I've never seen them.

rii · Jun 01, 2005, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Tanking is perfectly possible against the ignorant
A simple drakescale, greater conflagration and mantra of flame means you cant take physical or fire elemental damage, the two most common types....
In fact, rangers are designed as anti elemental.... look at their al ratings for christs sake.
They are warriors, just take out 'physical' and replace with 'elemental'.

Bigb04202 · Jun 01, 2005, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Rangers are sometimes as good as there group I guess that can be said about any profession. Rangers are a great PvP class can be a lot of fun. There so many things you can do with them you just haft to find your niche and stick with it. Interrupting is very hard to do very hard. You haft to play the game a lot to learn what spells you can interrupt and which ones you should past up. I love playing a ranger because it is a challenge but when you finally figure out a formula that works its very rewarding.

Sting · Jun 01, 2005, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leventh

Most go without a ranger.. i have yet to see a rangerless group (maybe cause im one but still!)..

Well I being a ranger myself DONT see many leave without either LOL. Im sure thats because I am one. Now Id like to ask are these PUGs or Guild groups, If they are PUGs then how long did you have to wait? I wait on an avg of 30-40 min then listen for another 5 min listening to some warrior or monk complain that they invited a ranger into the grp, then they only shutup when the grp leader says well hes got Mesmer secondary and theirs no Mesmers here LOL.

I really dont see why people are so defencive when someone brings up rangers need help, becasue they really do. They are considered probably the weakest class in the game (refering to higher LvL pvp).

Macel · Jun 01, 2005, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercury Rivenswift

Talk when you get out of Old Ascalon Arena lol. Seriously, I read this quote and laughed. Give me a break. Where are all these "leet" rangers? I've never seen them.

I'm level 20 and ascended, and have the only elite I need. No, I won't tell you my build :P

All I'll say is that you can't just look at what skills do, you have to look at their energy efficiency and casting times, and take into consideration that with 31 mana in full druids and 3 pips of regen, you cant afford to use expensive skills and spells constantly.

Epinephrine · Jun 01, 2005, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Typhoon

With their current design, a spirit will blanket an entire battlefield and equally buff both opposing teams, thus nullifying any noticeable edge for either side. If nature rituals continue to work this way, you won't see much of them in high level PvP. Their inflexibility against unknown teams and overall lack of advantages in PvP makes them a weak skill choice.

Lol. Spirits are great if you aren't with a random party. "Equal" buffing isn't "equal". Take the wimpiest ritual, Favorable Winds: All arrows travel twice as fast and deal bonus damage. This benefits bow users, though it is a universal buff. Play with 8 rangers and you add a lot of damage to your side thatthe other team isn't getting access to. Take Greater Conflagration; all physical damage is fire damage; Rangers now have better armour than warriors, and if your party planned around it they can be wearing Fire resistant armours and equipping Mantra of Flames, Ward against Harm, pack Mark of Rodgort and fragility, etc.... Winter turns elemental damage to cold; equip anti-cold gear and spells and you are more resistant to the annoying air damage spiker builds out there. There's always a way to use a ritual.

Nature rituals are not a laughing matter, but take planning and teamwork. If you invite a random ranger into HoH and he plants a nature ritual it could kill your team or benefit you, but more than likely it'll have little effect as you aren't built for it. If you plan around it it could be more than handy.

Flatliner · Jun 01, 2005, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axehilt

I would blame the lack of "looking for Rangers" purely on player ignorance - players honestly not being aware of the strengths of Rangers.

Bingo!

If more rangers knew how to disrupt/inturrupt, I guarantee a lot more people would be looking for them.

Macel · Jun 01, 2005, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Lol. Spirits are great if you aren't with a random party. "Equal" buffing isn't "equal". Take the wimpiest ritual, Favorable Winds: All arrows travel twice as fast and deal bonus damage. This benefits bow users, though it is a universal buff. Play with 8 rangers and you add a lot of damage to your side thatthe other team isn't getting access to. Take Greater Conflagration; all physical damage is fire damage; Rangers now have better armour than warriors, and if your party planned around it they can be wearing Fire resistant armours and equipping Mantra of Flames, Ward against Harm, pack Mark of Rodgort and fragility, etc.... Winter turns elemental damage to cold; equip anti-cold gear and spells and you are more resistant to the annoying air damage spiker builds out there. There's always a way to use a ritual.

Nature rituals are not a laughing matter, but take planning and teamwork. If you invite a random ranger into HoH and he plants a nature ritual it could kill your team or benefit you, but more than likely it'll have little effect as you aren't built for it. If you plan around it it could be more than handy.

Xactly.. I wouldn't use most rituals unless I am playing with guildies and we had a plan beforehand... The amount of time it takes to cast favorable winds, the changing nature of PVP battles (the fighting happens all over the place, and smart teams will take either take advantage of your ritual too, or stay out of range of it) makes it not worth doing most of the time. I love it when an opposing team takes favorable winds...

Oh, and that whole changing physical dmg to fire and boosting your fire resist idea... Looks nice "on paper", but in most situations is impractical in pvp because it takes too long to set up (pvp is even more fast paced than pve in case you didnt notice) and it can be too easily disrupted (spirit can be killed quickly).. A lot of strategies people mention in these forums look nice "on paper" but are in reality are impractical in one way or another... That said, the idea of changing physical dmg to fire might be more worth doing if you've got a full group of rangers who work well together, like epinephrine mentioned...

Asplode · Jun 01, 2005, 08:42 PM // 20:42

My guild group usually runs a ranger for concussion shot shutdown + Frozen Soil + Pin Down for utility and harassment.

Anariel · Jun 01, 2005, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Talendor Elessedil (starter of this topic) is one of the best rangers I know in PvP! He runs a great build and has great damage. A party would be dumb not to take him. :P

I've seen mostly ranger parties use some extremely unorthodox tactics and win some nice fights. I think they do need to buff the damage on the rangers though. Their damage output should be far above that of monks, necros, and mesmers.

The Red Knight · Jun 01, 2005, 10:14 PM // 22:14

distracting shot conc shot posion arrow pin down debilitating shot dust trap other great skills =/