Curse

MCS · Jul 13, 2005, 06:30 AM // 06:30

This thread is still here? :O I'm am SURE there is flaming in this thread just for reading the first few sentences of the OP.

ZING · Jul 13, 2005, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Secondary skills should compliment, not make-up-for your primary deficiencies (as if they were some kind of crutch).
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/skill/class/6-warrior
Show me from that list how a Warrior can deal with every other character class (BEFORE they themselves are rendered useless). Those are the Warriors skills which are tied to what should be maxed out primary attributes.

You can also run through every single other character classes skills and point to many options they have to stop a Warrior.

So I ask again: Does no one see that as a little unbalanced? If every other class can stick to their primary attributes and be able to negate all other classes in some way, why shouldn’t a Warrior be able to do the same?

Malchiel · Jul 13, 2005, 06:33 AM // 06:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZING

Secondary skills should compliment, not make-up-for your primary deficiencies (as if they were some kind of crutch).
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/skill/class/6-warrior
Show me from that list how a Warrior can deal with every other character class (BEFORE they themselves are rendered useless). Those are the Warriors skills which are tied to what should be maxed out primary attributes.

You can also run through every single other character classes skills and point to many options they have to stop a Warrior.

So I ask again: Does no one see that as a little unbalanced? If every other class can stick to their primary attributes and be able to negate all other classes in some way, why shouldn’t a Warrior be able to do the same?

Agrees with you wholeheartedly on this one.Very very unbalanced. Warriors primary just has little to no way to counter other classes. Most especially conditions and degens. Both of which are highly destructive to a warrior.

Zeru · Jul 13, 2005, 06:34 AM // 06:34

Can a mod rename this to say: If you want to learn pvp don't look here? These kind of topics just degenerate the forums further.

This is just absurd...a fear me warrior isn't good. Are you kidding me?

Malchiel · Jul 13, 2005, 06:38 AM // 06:38

nope. a mezmer will do the job a LOT better.

MCS · Jul 13, 2005, 06:42 AM // 06:42

I know they're all 100% opinion and when the opinions differ they start flaming :\...

*Use the force MCS!*

*Attempts to close the thread*

Damnit...

*Use the report bad post button MCS*

GG!

Nightwish · Jul 13, 2005, 06:45 AM // 06:45

Maybe warriors are equivalent to the pawn pieces in a chess set

just as important as other pieces, but if u look at it as 1 on 1 basis, they just not as good

Added to that, GW pvp can replace the warrior pawn pieces with other more flexible pieces

ZING · Jul 13, 2005, 06:49 AM // 06:49

Warriors have no condition removers. NONE. Every other class has some sort of ability to do that.

I’d settle for an elite skill that was spammable but cost all of a Warrior’s adrenaline to remove ALL conditions.

I don't even want things to get super easy or for some n00b to be able to tank an entire team. Any Warrior gain has to come with some loss, but it should happen if balance is what ANet has planned.

A Warrior needs skills that can negate all other classes effectively (as they all have against him). And right now that doesn't exist.

Malchiel · Jul 13, 2005, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightwish

Maybe warriors are equivalent to the pawn pieces in a chess set

just as important as other pieces, but if u look at it as 1 on 1 basis, they just not as good

Added to that, GW pvp can replace the warrior pawn pieces with other more flexible pieces

This I can agree on ;p They're pawn pieces... Only that in chess you could hardly ignore pawns. They can pretty much form a wall and block your move. GW warriors though are like pawns that can be ignored =_=

Zeru · Jul 13, 2005, 06:51 AM // 06:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malchiel

nope. a mezmer will do the job a LOT better.

Mesmer's energy denial options are subpar except for chaos storm when compared with echo/debil or fear me which are far better choices. You obviously don't know how fear me works (radius is VERY large) when you say that.

Phades · Jul 13, 2005, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZING

Warriors have no condition removers. NONE. Every other class has some sort of ability to do that.

I’d settle for an elite skill that was spammable but cost all of a Warrior’s adrenaline to remove ALL conditions.

I don't even want things to get super easy or for some n00b to be able to tank an entire team. Any Warrior gain has to come with some loss, but it should happen if balance is what ANet has planned.

A Warrior needs skills that can negate all other classes effectively (as they all have against him). And right now that doesn't exist.

Out of everything that you have said regarding warriors, this i agree with. As to how its brought about, im not entirely certain, but i think its something that needs to be done. I am not sure if that is all that needs to occur, but it would be a step in the right direction. Your philosiphy in other threads regarding warriors has sound tactics behind the use of the class, but they dont seem to mesh well with the standing game mechanics at times from what ive experienced within the game in the pvp realm.

sino-soviet · Jul 13, 2005, 07:03 AM // 07:03

First thing to correct this imbalance would be to nerf blind and weakness. Warriors are not weak; its just that they are perceived as a one sided class which is eay to counter. Sadly, much of this is true.

ZING · Jul 13, 2005, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Out of everything that you have said regarding warriors, this i agree with. As to how its brought about, im not entirely certain, but i think its something that needs to be done. I am not sure if that is all that needs to occur, but it would be a step in the right direction. Your philosiphy in other threads regarding warriors has sound tactics behind the use of the class, but they dont seem to mesh well with the standing game mechanics at times from what ive experienced within the game in the pvp realm.

Yur right...as much as I try to make the class work, and tweak around it, every single other class has some way of trumping ANYTHING a Warrior can do -- Whether they bring it along is another matter entirely, but they've got it in their skill set.

That is not a fair balance to things. A Warrior needs more skills to be able to get at other classes. That SHOULD come with a price to the amount of damage they can deal (since their skill slots will be used up by these new abilities), but they're sorely needed.

Even further...it's not like a Warrior would always bring these options along, but they would exist. Forcing other classes to worry about them, and spec for them as well. The mere fact that something is a possibility forces you to consider it.

Right now, all other classes do not have to worry about the possibility that a Warrior can get at them if they use (insert SINGLE skill here).

Phades · Jul 13, 2005, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

Mesmer's energy denial options are subpar except for chaos storm when compared with echo/debil or fear me which are far better choices. You obviously don't know how fear me works (radius is VERY large) when you say that.

Unfortunatly you have to be hitting reliably and either echod or amplifying adrenalin gain radically if you really want to make a dent against 4 pips of regen and 60-100+ energy base, depending on the target.

Energy denial only works if the recharge rate is also negated or the target in question is spamming skills at a rate that would deplete the character in a short time anyway. This is typically why disruption is more favored than denial. If the target is unable to sucessfully act, then the amount of energy available is irrelevant.

Phades · Jul 13, 2005, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZING

Yur right...as much as I try to make the class work, and tweak around it, every single other class has some way of trumping ANYTHING a Warrior can do -- Whether they bring it along is another matter entirely, but they've got it in their skill set.

That is not a fair balance to things. A Warrior needs more skills to be able to get at other classes. That SHOULD come with a price to the amount of damage they can deal (since their skill slots will be used up by these new abilities), but they're sorely needed.

Even further...it's not like a Warrior would always bring these options along, but they would exist. Forcing other classes to worry about them, and spec for them as well. The mere fact that something is a possibility forces you to consider it.

Right now, all other classes do not have to worry about the possibility that a Warrior can get at them if they use (insert SINGLE skill here).

In one of the first threads i posted in, i made a long winded post regarding the balance implications of pve and pvp together in the same game, while allowing for characters to act as stand alone individuals. Due to the nature of a pve realm, the skills are tuned to accomidate for greatly outnumbered or outclassed situations, which very commonly revolve around simple functioned melee style npc monsters. The existance of these skills cripple a standard melee orientated character within the pvp setting, but as you stated, it only comes up if they have the skill in the bar. Unfortunatly the warrior must make considerations for those possibilities always otherwise, in the case in w/e, be forced to be crippled in echange for trick combination x that is marginally more effective than other job combinations in the same situation.

The real answer could lie in pvp or pve only skills, even though there are many that are relegated in this manner already by cost and effect over time. That is somewhat of an extreeme answer, but it would require less tuning over the long run.

Zeru · Jul 13, 2005, 07:35 AM // 07:35

I said mesmer energy denial sucks compared to the other options. Mesmer shutdown on the other hand is really good.

Echoed Fear me builds that are run properly can achieve 6-7 energy degen in a very wide area. That is insanely effective pretty much because the area is so big. Vs good teams I don't think this is too viable because warriors cunning recharge sucks, rigor mortis is terrible, and good teams realize that wards are extremely good. On the other hand, it is an excellent tombs setup because most people in tombs suck and very rarely do people actually keep wards up and even rarer are all the casters within the WaM. Blind is overrated so badly, it'll stay on for 2 seconds at best, and most teams don't use SoF/EB or Symp visage or Soothing images either. Use the current meta-game to your advantage.

Ranger echo debil builds can sustain themselves indefinitely unless a mes actually brings spirit shackles (I have yet to see this

) and considering they can keep multiple targets (2 minimum 3 generally considering you're taking out 20-30 energy every 5 seconds when the skills are working right) at very low energy consistently they are definitely as worth it as a shutdown mesmer and a load easier to play. Besides, a shutdown mesmer doesn't aim for the kill completely. When enemy monks are forced to use Sig devo for healing due to no energy they don't need to be kept down further.

Phades · Jul 13, 2005, 07:46 AM // 07:46

I havent used fear me for a long period of time in a single sitting, but it didnt seem any larger than charge for the area of effect and charge is close to the size of a malestorm, which is pretty small.

All i was trying to state was that if the fear me actually blocks out the skill use via energy drain, then the target has already lost the fight/died long before then in most situations.

Debilitating shot seems to be more reliable, but is also limited to one target, like most energy drain. It is also conditional in that, if the caster is aware of the ranger, then the caster can reduce to negate the effect of the skill by simple movements. Should the ranger persue to gain a better position, then he risks being seperated from the healing sources and singled out. As an alternative the ranger could switch targets, but then returns to starting over draining a new character from scratch.

The times ive seen energy drain work well, is if the target is already low on energy or unaware that the drain is occuring.

ZING · Jul 13, 2005, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

In one of the first threads i posted in, i made a long winded post regarding the balance implications of pve and pvp together in the same game, while allowing for characters to act as stand alone individuals. Due to the nature of a pve realm, the skills are tuned to accomidate for greatly outnumbered or outclassed situations, which very commonly revolve around simple functioned melee style npc monsters. The existance of these skills cripple a standard melee orientated character within the pvp setting, but as you stated, it only comes up if they have the skill in the bar. Unfortunatly the warrior must make considerations for those possibilities always otherwise, in the case in w/e, be forced to be crippled in echange for trick combination x that is marginally more effective than other job combinations in the same situation.

The real answer could lie in pvp or pve only skills, even though there are many that are relegated in this manner already by cost and effect over time. That is somewhat of an extreeme answer, but it would require less tuning over the long run.

Well they gotta do something. Because despite some people's claims that "(caster X) starts to get the ph33r of god in them when they see my (W/X) coming, the good casters in Guild Wars smile and laugh knowing that ONE skill out of their 8 will render said Warrior incapable of putting ph33r into anything.

Mulatto · Jul 13, 2005, 08:27 AM // 08:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZING

Secondary skills should compliment, not make-up-for your primary deficiencies (as if they were some kind of crutch).

Nobody likes Mulatto but I agree on this one

i couldnt of put it better myself with all my Internet short hand error

Calimar · Jul 13, 2005, 08:46 AM // 08:46

PvP is about TEAMPLAY. Get a warrior, strand it in a group he doesn't know,he's dead. Dead, dead, dead.
A warrior needs support - he, and the monk, are the classes that need the most support. Monks don't deal enough damage unless they're smithing, and then they don't heal, warriors need to GET NEAR. Cripple can be avoided through speed increase - you should plan you characters with some, if you feel you don't get helped by your monks enough.

A secondary profession is a complement to your skills. It should make up for the specialization of your class - your class has weaknesses, you make up for some of them with your secondary class. Casters are strong, but can be shut down by mesmers. Warriors can be crippled. Rangers deal lots of damage but arrows can be deflected. It's all about teamwork - THAT is the clue in GW PvP. As an elementalist/mesmer, I can probably thrash any warrior before he gets to me. OTOH, I've met in the random arena a Warrior/Monk that, after we thrashed his entire squad, proceeded to devastate us one at a time. Don't ask me how, but he was consistently resisting everything we did. 4 on 1 was not enough, he won the game. Wish I had taken screenshots.
Stop whining, check your skillbars.