Curse

Mhydrian · Jul 09, 2005, 06:17 PM // 18:17

PVP in guildwars is so heavily salnted in favor of casters that its almost pointles to PVP with anything else. As a ranger, a anti-caster build even, I can barely get on even ground with most casters. Ill make a small list of reasons why casters simply need major changes.

1) Caster damage cannot be avoided. Line of sight? who cares a caster can cast spike damage through solid walls or stack so many DOTs you die in seconds, all by simply tabbing around and picking the next poor sucker. As a ranger a supposed anti catser class I have to play hide and seek with casters as they cast thorugh solid objects.

2) Damage is too reliable. Do you know how many defenses there are in the game to provide 75% or better defense against physical damage? Tons..or you can simply move around alot and my ranger can easily miss a pin shot with a nice big fat cool down. There is no way to defend against magic attacks. Dots hit for full damage everytime, nukes land for huge damage. Oh I know there are hex removers and condition removers...of course mostly from monks. But every class has built in ways to surivive melee damage and yet the only methods to prevent some DOT damage is on skills that are rare amongst classes, usually with hefty cast times and cooldowns to boot.

3) Too much damage done. Necros and the N/me are usually the worst offenders here. Air spikes are just cheesy as hell, seeing as they can shoot through solid objects. But DotS that kill a person in 6 or 7 seconds is retarded. I understand casters are tank killers, but what is a caster killer, or more specifically a Necro killer? More than one person is usually the best and only means. They can stack DOTs, and they have fast, near instant casts on huge damage/drain spells. As a ranger I dont have the hopes of downing a caster in under 10 seconds yet, a caster can do this to anyone else standing behind a wall.

4) Anyone with two legs can negate a war. Melee is just bad, consider that a caster can out damage a war in most cases, with DOTs alone. And thats if the warrior gets free shots in. Take into account blindness, stances, Defesnive spells, the damage done is drastically reduced. Then all a person has to do is turn and run and you have 100% immunity from melee. And yes there sure are ways to cripple someone, but its not very reliable and can be removed avoided alot easier than its actually succesful.

5) Warriors take a HUGE hit, they get 2 bars of regeneration. Why? Im trying to understand why...It's quite obvious that armor means absolutely nothing in this game in PVP. Damage that ignores armor in PVP is abundant....rampant even. DoTs totally negate armor and are one of the worst killers in the game. It must be the warriors awesome offensive skills....prolly not seeing as damage done by melee is easy to reduce or even nullify. So where is this huge advantage that warriors get to justify having such pitiful magic skills?

Its really a shame casters are not my favoire to play. But just seeing all the N/me running around owing everything they meet, with no real weaknesses excpet superior numbers on the opposite team is dumb. Yes there are counters to every build....but some classes are WAY to easily countered while others require a collection of skills on a bunch of classes together to effectively counter.

So too simply say there i a counter to build X is really saying nothing. There arent enough ways to easily remove/reduce dot damage in the game. Mesmers get the BEST melee skill in the game "Illusionary Weapon". A Random class/Secondary warrior is almost always a better PVP class than a Warrior/Random class. Having two monks on one team of 4 should not make them practically impossible to beat. The list goes on, but PVP as it is is simply a joke. Melee and physical damage needs to be improved greatly, and defenses against DOTS, and line of sight requirements for casters put in. As it is yet another game who overpwers casters in PVP. Its been done over and over.....and Guild wars is no better.

Flame away. I dont care, the majority of the player base plays oblivious to these boards anyways. Simply an observation, thats true. And if the developers of the game cared about a enjoyable PVP experience they wouldnt force people to make certain builds.

Loviatar · Jul 09, 2005, 06:24 PM // 18:24

no flame

it is possible you havent found the right combination or nitch yet

several people who have much more experience than you (unless you are an alpha/beta tester perhaps?) find rangers extremely powerful.

note that they had to nerf the rangers a bit before retail release

also most people have found the balance to be the best they have found so far

as i said no flame

Jul 09, 2005, 06:30 PM // 18:30

this post is a waste. Too much misinformation and no numbers to back up the claims.

Anarkii · Jul 09, 2005, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

this post is a waste. Too much misinformation and no numbers to back up the claims.

I agree.

I would have bothered to reply to individual points had there been more substance.

And I cant believe an R/Me is complaining about casters

borkbork · Jul 09, 2005, 06:35 PM // 18:35

sounds like you're only playing in 4 v 4 random? Dots are only deadly in random since 90% of the time you have a monk that's smiting or meleeing instead.

In tombs, I suppose you've never played with hammer kd warriors. They're brutal and can take out a player fast. Melee is easy to shutdown, but at the same time, the hexes and conditions are easy to remove if you have a competent monk.

The whole point of this game is not to be a one-man army. You need to rely on the casters for help, and the casters also rely on the melee characers for pure sustained damage.

Zeru · Jul 09, 2005, 06:44 PM // 18:44

You could understand the gameplay better before posting this rubbish...

Odd Sock · Jul 09, 2005, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

this post is a waste. Too much misinformation and no numbers to back up the claims.

Agreed.

Fanta · Jul 09, 2005, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Stop whining and talking about ways you are being beat, you could have used this wasted time instead on going over your skills and finding ways to shutdown casters as you are a ranger. rangers are great for interupting casters.

KvanCetre · Jul 09, 2005, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Casters can cast through walls? No, no they can't. Only spells that don't bother with line of sight(Meteor, lightning) can, because there is nothing to get in the way.

Running negates a warrior? I'd like to see you try it - especially against anyone who has cripple or knockdowns.

You honestly complain about nukes? Oy vey....

You complain a caster can kill a warrior, then you complain that armor is usesless. The most armor penetration an ele will ever have is 25% on a lightning strike

Have you ever even heard of a monk?

Principa Discordia · Jul 09, 2005, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Speaking as a player, not as a moderator, learn to play the game before whining about getting owned so much. The simple fact is that PvP doesn't suck, it's just that you suck against casters. This thread is utter trash and states practically zero fact.

Traps · Jul 09, 2005, 06:53 PM // 18:53

agree. i find no problems in the casters sometimes but warriors hack me up.

Btw ele's cant beat rangers in 1v1. (Elemental defence)

Principa Discordia · Jul 09, 2005, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traps

Btw ele's cant beat rangers in 1v1. (Elemental defence)

Not sure what game you are playing, but I've not seen 1 vs. 1.

none · Jul 09, 2005, 07:05 PM // 19:05

I know I've taken out groups with 2 monks in 4 vs. 4 although my own group didn't even have a single monk (or healer). But to start from the beginning:

Quote:

1) Caster damage cannot be avoided. Line of sight? who cares a caster can cast spike damage through solid walls or stack so many DOTs you die in seconds, all by simply tabbing around and picking the next poor sucker. As a ranger a supposed anti catser class I have to play hide and seek with casters as they cast thorugh solid objects.

Only partly true. There are many spells that ignore LoS, but only where it makes sense. The perfect example for where it doesn't make sense (and where LoS is checked) is Fireball. You can't cast that on something if you can't attack that person/mob with your normal weapon (or rather, you can cast it, but if fails). And talking about Ranger damage, no one but rangers (~bows) gets bonus damage if they attack from above.

Quote:

2) Damage is too reliable. Do you know how many defenses there are in the game to provide 75% or better defense against physical damage? Tons..or you can simply move around alot and my ranger can easily miss a pin shot with a nice big fat cool down. There is no way to defend against magic attacks. Dots hit for full damage everytime, nukes land for huge damage. Oh I know there are hex removers and condition removers...of course mostly from monks. But every class has built in ways to surivive melee damage and yet the only methods to prevent some DOT damage is on skills that are rare amongst classes, usually with hefty cast times and cooldowns to boot.

Wrong again. And in more than one way. First of, not all caster attacks hit. If you start with an Ele, you can simply move away, if he's doing AoE, you can also avoid being hit if you're zig-zagging (Glint's firebreath attack is the perfect proof for that). Talking about Mesmer damage, you can almost fully avoid that, if you're careful, eg. casting in the right moment, or simply stop casting/attacking.

Yes, there are some types of damage you can't avoid, but all of those can be cured or negated by Monks in some way. And before you complain, that's what Monks are supposed to do. If you don't happen to have a Monk in your group, you have a higher chance to get one of those classes that have DoTs (actually, Rangers are amongst those that can deal extremely painful DoTs).

Quote:

3) Too much damage done. Necros and the N/me are usually the worst offenders here. Air spikes are just cheesy as hell, seeing as they can shoot through solid objects. But DotS that kill a person in 6 or 7 seconds is retarded. I understand casters are tank killers, but what is a caster killer, or more specifically a Necro killer? More than one person is usually the best and only means. They can stack DOTs, and they have fast, near instant casts on huge damage/drain spells. As a ranger I dont have the hopes of downing a caster in under 10 seconds yet, a caster can do this to anyone else standing behind a wall.

See above. And if you can't stand your ground, you might want to rethink your build. If you go all Mesmer, you will realize you have an easy time killing Necromancers (especially if they rely on Blood Magic).

Quote:

5) Warriors take a HUGE hit, they get 2 bars of regeneration. Why? Im trying to understand why...It's quite obvious that armor means absolutely nothing in this game in PVP. Damage that ignores armor in PVP is abundant....rampant even. DoTs totally negate armor and are one of the worst killers in the game. It must be the warriors awesome offensive skills....prolly not seeing as damage done by melee is easy to reduce or even nullify. So where is this huge advantage that warriors get to justify having such pitiful magic skills?

Take a look at a Warrior that uses mainly knockdowns (works best if combined with skills from other classes with knockdowns). Yes, he doesn't deal that much damage, but who cares for damage, if what you're fighting doesn't get up to do anything at all, no matter how dangerous he might be.

These are only few points where your argumentation (or probably experience with the game) lacks, there is just so many possibe tactics that need some time (and effort) to explore, although you might want to take a look at other's builds to find a strategy that suits you better than your current strategy.

ICURADik · Jul 09, 2005, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Principa Discordia

Not sure what game you are playing, but I've not seen 1 vs. 1.

Not sure what game your playing, but I've seen plenty. Random Arena often comes down to just two players.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Jul 09, 2005, 07:21 PM // 19:21

As someone who's been playing Arenas for countless hours most of what the OP is totally wrong of course. There are a couple of points that are sort of valid though... 2 monks in a 4 man team is very very tough to beat. Not impossible but more so than any combo. But that's mostly due to people not bringing any anti caster/monk skills at all.

Principa Discordia · Jul 09, 2005, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

Not sure what game your playing, but I've seen plenty. Random Arena often comes down to just two players.

Oh you mean when the remaining warrior or ranger just runs around without a signet.

Gotcha'.

Xellos · Jul 09, 2005, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Principa Discordia

Not sure what game you are playing, but I've not seen 1 vs. 1.

/mortal kombat mode duh

ICURADik · Jul 09, 2005, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Principa Discordia

Oh you mean when the remaining warrior or ranger just runs around without a signet.

Gotcha'.

Already used signet.

Ednemak · Jul 09, 2005, 08:23 PM // 20:23

What he's saying about the Warriors is true

I can tank for days, weeks, defense isnt a problem for me AT ALL.

Its the dmg thats a problem, It takes me aages to kill something with a sword.

Sword warriros have decent skills, but they just arent usefull in pvp

Sever artery, Gash, Final Slash, for example...

Sever artery is almost always healed by monks, negated by mend condition

Gash doesnt work if sever doesnt work

Final slash sucks unless he has under 50% life

But that is all against other warriors

When Im fight a caster, daaaamn

The monks are the worst, if u even magically get them to 50% they run away, until they are full.

Plz dont give me the bull about getting cripple skills, its just not worth it in pvp

but im still new I guess, if anyone can tell me what a good skill set for a W/Mo is that would grreeatly help

Man With No Name · Jul 09, 2005, 08:26 PM // 20:26

It can seem a bit like the odds are stacked against the Warriors at times. They have to fight up-close and personal to do any serious damage -- and many of the classes have some kind of anti-warrior ability ( surely those types of spells are the job of a protection monk ?? )

Hexes, Conditions, Elemental damage -- it's all there to make a Warrior completely redundant -- and they don't have the energy pool or regen to continually spam Remove Hex or Ailment...

I'll offer a few suggestions for this upcoming Summer Update....

I'd love to see more anti-caster type skills and more importantly items, for example:

- The introducing other types of armour for Warrior types -- The armour suit wouldn't protect against Physical very well but against 1 particular form of elemental damage the Warrior would be extremely protected

I'd like them to introduce more skills, for example:

- Attacks to the arms to slow down casting speed.
- Attacks the the head to blind / daze ( other than Skull crack )
- Also make casters have low fixed % chance of failing their current spell -- since they're being disrupted by being attacked

Finally

- Be nice if they upped the speed of all Warrior base attacks -- making them have similar speed to Charr Blade Warriors -- if your team is daft enough to let a Warrior get up close -- you should take some serious punishment. Things like Pin Down and Burden can stop a Warrior from getting up close...

I guess the OP wants more of a number-crunch RPG ( Neverwinter Nights sounds more like your kind of RPG ) -- with things like Will Saves and so forth...

With all that said -- I don't generally have a problem with killing casters if I can get close. Some essential skills for a Sword Warrior would be:

Final Thrust, Savage Slash, Hamstring and Bull's Charge