Curse

Rey Lentless · Jul 29, 2005, 08:28 AM // 08:28

If I had a dime for everytime someone has said BR wasn't very good because of a hammer elite.. in an axe thread.. I'd have enough money to buy you people a clue.

Phades:

What are you talking about? Blinding doesn't affect warriors not using BR? Eh?

Anyway, I think in optimum (but not necessarily normal circumstances) conditions, cleave can be a better elite. I still don't think eviscerate's worth bothering with though. It's just a dismember that eats up an elite spot and doesn't add another adrenal skill, it replaces another one. While I do think the spike quality to it is nice, I don't think the difference in 40 damage is often going to be the difference in getting the kill, and not. And since it's dps isn't going to be as nice as cleave, that's really the only situation where eviscerate's going to be better.. when it's finishing off that last 40 health, when something wouldn't have otherwise died. Not a common situation.

Phades · Jul 29, 2005, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Fixing blindness yourself affects the use of BR, just like using something like warrior cunning to avoid the block/evade condition. All i was saying is that it is nice to have skills that streamline the warrior, but many of them also cripple the warrior's ability to react properly. I dont see elemental attunement causing spells to cast 50% longer, aura of faith ending if you cast a non-monk spell, divine spirit causing non-monk spells to cost 50% more, ways of preventing stacking enchtantments, hexes, and conditions, and preventing ways to stop refresh time stacking. Stances appear to have the singular distinction of forcing only one way to fight, sacrificing any form of ability to react without sacrificing the stance. This creates one totally dependant character out of 6 possible options.

rii · Jul 29, 2005, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Zeru:

First point, when do you get an ideal situation (in which evis 'beats' (thats still up in the air) rage)?? You dont. An 'ideal' situation is when you get a wooden dummy and wack it. Withholding insults, most people arent wooden dummies, and have counters of their own. You dont prepare for an 'ideal' situation, cause against a good team the chances of it actually occuring are zero.

To go through the important pros and cons.

Your energy isnt used for support... monks get rended /lingered before a spike, otherwise itll be torn apart by prot. A guy with rage should invest in buffs like soh and judges. THATS an advantage to drive home. +8 damage on all attacks? holy damage and 20% extra ap? Thats something worthwhile, and im about to calculate the dps for that against frezy evis, then cleave. somehow, (since ive already done it) i think that a correctly used rager is going to win...

br cant spike? I really still dont understand this. Take the executioners strike (at 14 axe i think its +40!) Thats something to spike with. With rage, i spam it. Dont spike, just use it every fourth hit. Then maybe i coordinate three and thats my man is a spike. Then, if im feeling malicious, well do it again in four hits. Sustained high dps, isnt that the cornerstone of the warrior? Well, i thought it was :/

and lets clear it up, rage last 21 seconds at high strength. That is plenty of time to do a dance and still kill someone. and even if you do RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO it up, its two strikes while its still up to recharge, then a couple more hits and your fully charged.

Now the 'pros' of the cleave/frenzy/evis:

more dps? scroll down a little and well see.

good for spiking? the thing is, let me read you both cleave and evis' effect, since you might have misread em

Cleave:
4 adren
You strike for 10-22 more damage. (well take these at max stats obviously)

Evis
8 adren
You strike for 10-24 more damage, and inflict a deep wound, lowering targets max health by 20% for 5-17 seconds.

Then Frenzy

5 energy 4 second recharge
You attack 33% faster for 8 seconds

Now, the ‘power’ strikes ill be using:

Executioners strike:

You strike for 10-34 more damage.

And then there’s dismember to make it all fair.

Ill give us both penetrating blow, and axe twist, and disrupting chop as well, to make a decent list of attacks.
So your;

Eviscerate
Penetrating blow
Distracting chop
Frenzy
Axe rake

And im:
Battle rage
Penetrating blow
Distracting chop
Executioners strike
Dismember

So weve both got all adren skills, you’ve got a strike rate of 0.88 and ive got 1.33. Well also say that were both using max axes that conveniently all hit for 34, with no crits :/. It just makes it easier.

So you first:
Chaining frenzy, it takes you 8 strikes to build up all your adren. Well say that we use the attacks as they come:

6x normal attacks (204)
Penetrating (55 dmg)
Distracting (34dmg)
Rake (34 dmg)
Evis (58dmg)+100dmg (deep wound)

Combine with this the normal attacks you make (which would be 6) that take you the sum total of 8.8 seconds. And you deal a total of 485 damage with a dps of 55.1

Now me
Four attacks to charge rage, then penetrating straight off (already charged) then 2 more for executioners, and dismember and a distracting in there as well. That’s the list, but you still had two more strikes, so that gives me another penetrating. (getting a little lost but it looks about right)
So
Normal x5 (170)
Penetrating blowx 2 (110)
Distracting chop (34)
Executioners (68)
Dismember (100+34)

Thing is, due to the cross overs, I think you might be able to get more out of that, but ill leave as is.

I think that’s right, and that’s 516damage, with a total time of 13.3 and a dps of 38.79

So evis wins the burst, but how does it do in after that?
Evis had the burst it gained from the deep wound, but after that it cannot inflict the deep wound again. However, the spammablilty of executioners and penetrating as the two main attacks vs penetrating vs evis means rage comes out on top. (ive rambled there and it could well be wrong :/)
However, the judges and soh hasn’t been mentioned, and so on.

Cleave cant win that fight. Evis won this spike contest since it has the deep wound, and is less tedious to work out than rage

. Cleave does less damage than executioners, does not have the buff on the other attacks such as penetrating, and does not give a deep wound.

And yes, it’s a thread called AXE STRATEGY

, and I meant to say ‘axe or sword attack elites’. Hammer……is debatable, but right now I cba.

Scaphism · Jul 29, 2005, 04:26 PM // 16:26

The main thing you're concerned with in a spike is getting the maximum damage out in the shortest timeframe.

You shouldn't be timing your spike from when you start building adrenaline, you should go from when your attacks are fully charged. You still need to know how long it's going to take you to charge your chain, but most (if not all) the damage you do building up your adrenaline is going to be healed away.

That's probably the #1 reason why attack speed buffs are more valuable in spikes- they allow you to shorten your spike. In addition, your buffs like SOH and JI benefit more from an attack speed buff like frenzy than an adrenaline booster like BR.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

An 'ideal' situation is when you get a wooden dummy and wack it.

As you pointed out, you're rarely going to get a situation where you have a wooden dummy to beat on. But you will have opportunities to beat on a target for ~5 seconds uninterrupted. As a monk, I have to stop and heal my teammates sometimes. You want to make sure you can take as much advantage of that window as possible.

Frenzy lets you build up adrenaline on whichever target you like, then unload on a different character if you want. Battle Rage will let you build up your adrenaline faster over a longer period of time, but for my spikes I'm not nearly as concerned about spiking over and over- I want my spike to kill the first time, and frenzy helps me do that better, and I don't have to worry about losing all my adrenaline when Frenzy wears off, unlike Battle Rage.

Note: Dismember is a perfect example of shortening your spikes- it does terrific + damage AND Deep Wounds your target, and you should follow it up with another + damage attack like Executioner's or Penetrating Blow.

Eonwe · Jul 29, 2005, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

Zeru:

Now the 'pros' of the cleave/frenzy/evis:

more dps? scroll down a little and well see.

good for spiking? the thing is, let me read you both cleave and evis' effect, since you might have misread em

Cleave:
4 adren
You strike for 10-22 more damage. (well take these at max stats obviously)

Evis
8 adren
You strike for 10-24 more damage, and inflict a deep wound, lowering targets max health by 20% for 5-17 seconds.

Then Frenzy

5 energy 4 second recharge
You attack 33% faster for 8 seconds

Now, the ‘power’ strikes ill be using:

Executioners strike:

You strike for 10-34 more damage.

And then there’s dismember to make it all fair.

Ill give us both penetrating blow, and axe twist, and disrupting chop as well, to make a decent list of attacks.
So your;

Eviscerate
Penetrating blow
Distracting chop
Frenzy
Axe rake

And im:
Battle rage
Penetrating blow
Distracting chop
Executioners strike
Dismember

So weve both got all adren skills, you’ve got a strike rate of 0.88 and ive got 1.33. Well also say that were both using max axes that conveniently all hit for 34, with no crits :/. It just makes it easier.

So you first:
Chaining frenzy, it takes you 8 strikes to build up all your adren. Well say that we use the attacks as they come:

6x normal attacks (204)
Penetrating (55 dmg)
Distracting (34dmg)
Rake (34 dmg)
Evis (58dmg)+100dmg (deep wound)

Combine with this the normal attacks you make (which would be 6) that take you the sum total of 8.8 seconds. And you deal a total of 485 damage with a dps of 55.1

Now me
Four attacks to charge rage, then penetrating straight off (already charged) then 2 more for executioners, and dismember and a distracting in there as well. That’s the list, but you still had two more strikes, so that gives me another penetrating. (getting a little lost but it looks about right)
So
Normal x5 (170)
Penetrating blowx 2 (110)
Distracting chop (34)
Executioners (68)
Dismember (100+34)

Thing is, due to the cross overs, I think you might be able to get more out of that, but ill leave as is.

I think that’s right, and that’s 516damage, with a total time of 13.3 and a dps of 38.79

And yes, it’s a thread called AXE STRATEGY

, and I meant to say ‘axe or sword attack elites’. Hammer……is debatable, but right now I cba.

I'll start off by saying your damage figures are incorrect. I'm also going to assume that when you said "we'll take these at max stats obviously" that would mean a 16 attribute.

First I'll do the first combo you listed, correctly. Ill also take out axe rake since it's trash and put in executioner's. And then I'll do the second combo you listed.

First List:

Normal x8 (272) = 7.04 secs
Eviscerate (76) +100 deep wound (using your reasoning here) =.88 secs
Executioners (76) = .88 secs
Penetrating Blow (55) =.88 secs
Disrupting Chop (34) = .88 secs

That would be 613 Dmg over 10.56 seconds.

Second List:

Normal x5 (170) =6.65 secs
Penetrating Blow x2 (110) = 2.66 secs
Disrupting Chop (34) =1.33 secs
Executioners (76) = 1.33 secs
Dismember (134) = 1.33 secs

That would be 524 dmg over 13.3 seconds.

You need to realize that at 16 Axe Mastery Eviscerate and Executioner's will do +42 Damage. I think you should re-think your entire post.

Yukito Kunisaki · Jul 29, 2005, 05:27 PM // 17:27

There's too many variables to equate while running this setup. The simplest of which shouldn't be ignored.

The easiest of which is the enemy's intelligence vs. stupidity.

Who wants to stand next to a frenzied warrior? seriously. Frenzy is rather easy to see for someone who plays this game enough. Standing there isn't an option unless of course you've got defensive measures, in the case that you don't, you run your ass off.

In that area, frenzy falls flat on its face. Battle Rage will easily outpace frenzy in landing more crits, and staying on the foe, and dealing more dmg than a frenzy user.

But if we're not taking that into account, I can just add this.

If you stand still and take it like a punching bag, Frenzy can win.

If your enemy runs, Battle Rage {E} will take them down far more efficiently.

And for those uber rare War vs. War conclusions, Battle Rage will deal 1048 dmg vs. the frenzied user's 613. AL unaccounted for.

As a warrior, I fight more foes who run than who do not. So Battle Rage {E} all the way.

Jul 29, 2005, 05:42 PM // 17:42

BR doesnt outpace Frenzy by far, especially on an Axe User. Remember BR doesnt work with non-attack skills, Frenzy does. So a weapon doing 6-28 damage even with buffs you dont get the high +damage off attack skills under a speed buff, which means BR goes to the trash heap if you want to spike with self sustained buffs or a Warrior not 100% focused on swinging a weapon.

Axe users also have Eviscerate which looks far better to carry than Battle Rage.

How did you come to the conclusion BR deals 1048 damage vs a Frenzied Warrior doing only 613?

edited.

Red Locust · Jul 29, 2005, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Kiting isn't that much of a problem, since you're usually picking a different target to build up your adren. If said target runs away, you pick another one and continue buiding up. Once you do so, it's quite easy to unload all your adren skills on your main target in a short timeframe, before he gets the chance to react.

Although, kiting should somehow be included in those calculations, because everybody runs when they get frenzied, and you either break out of frenzy to sprint, or you take the time to switch targets.

Scaphism · Jul 29, 2005, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

Standing there isn't an option unless of course you've got defensive measures, in the case that you don't, you run your ass off.

As a monk, I don't need "defensive measures" to outheal the damage from an axe warrior. We're not talking about a 1vs1 matchup though- we're talking about the fastest way to unload your damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

Battle Rage will easily outpace frenzy in landing more crits, and staying on the foe, and dealing more dmg than a frenzy user.

You're 1 for 3, so I guess that's not bad for baseball. Battle Rage vs Frenzy has nothing to do with landing crits. Runners do, but that brings us to point 2. Battle Rage will help you keep up with enemies more than Eviscerate, but that's why you bring Sprint. You land the same number of crits against Runners using Sprint as you will using Battle Rage. I dare you to prove otherwise. Finally, I refer you to Eonwe's post above damage comparisons, or even Rii's. Both agree on the same thing; Eviscerate + Frenzy lets you pack more damage into a smaller timeframe than Battle Rage alone. I don't know what world you operate in where that means Battle Rage=More damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

And for those uber rare War vs. War conclusions, Battle Rage will deal 1048 dmg vs. the frenzied user's 613. AL unaccounted for.

I have no idea how you got those figures- an explanation would be useful....wait, no it wouldn't. Since when are you fighting warrior vs warrior duels? I thought we were talking about competetive matches like Tombs and GvG? Stop worrying about dueling, and stop bringing it up like it matters in these discussions. It doesn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

As a warrior, I fight more foes who run than who do not. So Battle Rage {E} all the way.

Again, I'd recommend you learn to use sprint, and probably start using Bull's Strike. If you spend the majority of your time chasing people instead of attacking them, you've essentially taken yourself and the guy you're chasing out of the fight. Now it's 7v7 with a game of tag going on on the side.
If running is that much of a problem, your team needs to bring a few snares for clutch situations where you need to get a kill. Even without a snare, you should find plenty of opportunities to wail on a soft target for ~5 seconds. Casters have to stop to cast spells. When they do, jump on them. And to unload as fast as possible, you want Frenzy so you can get your already charged adrenal skills out as fast as possible.

But after all that, if all you can manage to do is chase people, getting in hits while they're running, sure, grab Battle Rage and keep chasing down one target while he's getting cross heals from a monk who's standing nearby. The rest of us will be taking the small windows of opportunity we create and unleashing on people during them.

Remember folks, it's not about doing more damage over time-it's about knocking out the last hit point like it's the last tooth left in their mouth.

Tellani Artini · Jul 29, 2005, 06:41 PM // 18:41

I only use battle rage in an energy-less build where I'm maintaining two enchants, which only happens in PvE and comp arena. That's where it obviously shines.

rii · Jul 29, 2005, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Eonwe: :S didnt know the executioners strike and evis were the same at 16. Was it buffed>? My calculator says that executioners does +42 and evis+32 at 16. Ill take your word for it though. Whatsmore, i dont usually run 16 attribute, since the damage increase isnt worth it often.

Its seems that while evis is a good spike, it does lack endurance past the first strike since you can only inflict one deep wound, so the 100 additional only comes in once. So long term dps is less (unless eonwe is right about the damage)

Fair points Scaphism, however, is a short spike of high dps followed by periods of low dps more effective than consistently high dps? Wearing down targets till they break as opposed to spiking and hoping that prots dont see? Im assuming your talking about a lone evis user, since two reduces strength a lot (only one deep wound from two eviserates) and one guy on his own still needs about 5-6 seconds to take someone down? I would think that high dps over time with spikes at the hand (as is the case for rage, executioners strike and so on almost always charged, or final thrust in the case of swords) id better than charging a spike and then letting it loose, which frankly isnt that much stronger than the spike given by battle rage. Frenzy gives higher dps, but the actual skill eviserate isnt as good methinks.

Rey Lentless · Jul 29, 2005, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Fixing blindness yourself affects the use of BR, just like using something like warrior cunning to avoid the block/evade condition. All i was saying is that it is nice to have skills that streamline the warrior, but many of them also cripple the warrior's ability to react properly. I dont see elemental attunement causing spells to cast 50% longer, aura of faith ending if you cast a non-monk spell, divine spirit causing non-monk spells to cost 50% more, ways of preventing stacking enchtantments, hexes, and conditions, and preventing ways to stop refresh time stacking. Stances appear to have the singular distinction of forcing only one way to fight, sacrificing any form of ability to react without sacrificing the stance. This creates one totally dependant character out of 6 possible options.

The warrior's job is to dish out damage. If you want to be the jack of all trades, you aren't asking enough of your teammates. If you're referring to random arena where you ahve to be self sufficient, then I concede whatever point you're trying to make. My comments don't involve RA.

Quote:

Again, I'd recommend you learn to use sprint, and probably start using Bull's Strike.

So sprint is better than BR.. how? If you're forced to sprint every time you breath on someone, then frenzy's really irrelevant. With BR, you can always be in a sprint, and actually have a secondary benefit at the same time. If you're saying sprint's that important, then you should logically see how BR is even more important.

The only arguement against battle rage would be if sprint isn't important. Being able to use frenzy consistently makes BR fail to spike as well.

And personally if I'm up against a team that just lets me frenzy spike them into the ground, then it probably doesn't matter which elite I'm using.. would have won anyway.

Phades · Jul 29, 2005, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Typically im more accustomed to people being pre-occupied with more life threatening things than the warrior's state of well being. Sure something like a E/mo would be optimal, but its still asking alot from a pug, which i believe a greater population percentage operates out of.

Scaphism · Jul 29, 2005, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

Eonwe: :S didnt know the executioners strike and evis were the same at 16. Was it buffed>? My calculator says that executioners does +42 and evis+32 at 16. Ill take your word for it though. Whatsmore, i dont usually run 16 attribute, since the damage increase isnt worth it often.

There's a thread about the benefit of having a weapon at 16 attribute that's only a few days old. I think it would behoove everyone who hasn't read it to take a look at the thread and re-evaluate your thinking.

Secondly, start messing around in the PVP creation screen. Start comparing the skills yourself instead of relying on damage calculators. Many of the skill and damage calculators were created during the Beta Events so we had a way to talk about skills in the month-long lull between events. Many of those calculators have not been updated to reflect the current game. At the time they were useful because most of us couldn't hop into the game (and those who could were bound by the NDA) and check what a skill did at level 12 vs level 16 attribute- you're not limited to that now, so start taking advantage of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

Its seems that while evis is a good spike, it does lack endurance past the first strike since you can only inflict one deep wound, so the 100 additional only comes in once. So long term dps is less (unless eonwe is right about the damage)

Eviscerate is a great spike. As I've been saying the entire time, you only need to do enough damage to kill someone- that's why you use Eviscerate as your final (or penultimate) attack. You don't need to stack them back to back, since what you're aiming for is a kill. The next time you have Eviscerate charged, you should be ready to spike out your next target.

Stop worrying about your potential damage if you keep charging adrenaline indefinitely. You are only going to get small chances to take someone out, and you need to capitalize on them. If you give a monk a chance to heal himself, he's going to, and you wont win the damage vs healing race, neither with Eviscerate nor with Battle Rage.

*Edit*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

So sprint is better than BR.. how? If you're forced to sprint every time you breath on someone, then frenzy's really irrelevant. With BR, you can always be in a sprint, and actually have a secondary benefit at the same time. If you're saying sprint's that important, then you should logically see how BR is even more important.

As I said above, if you're chasing someone down the entire match, you've effectively turned the match into 7v7 with a side game of tag going on. Why the hell would you do that? You're not supposed to run around the entire match, you're supposed to find a window of opportunity and exploit it. You don't need perma-sprint to do that, you don't need double adrenaline to do that (see charging your adrenaline on a seperate, non-runner) and you DEFINITELY don't want to lose all adrenaline just as one of those opportunities arises.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lenteless

The only arguement against battle rage would be if sprint isn't important. Being able to use frenzy consistently makes BR fail to spike as well.

The argument isn't against Sprint- not a single person in this thread has claimed they don't need a speed boost, so stop pretending we have. The argument against battle rage is that when the right moment comes, you'd rather be attacking with frenzy up than battle rage. You don't need perma-sprint for that either, you just need the option to activate it when that situation arises. That's also why Bull's Strike is excellent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

And personally if I'm up against a team that just lets me frenzy spike them into the ground, then it probably doesn't matter which elite I'm using.. would have won anyway.

Congratulations on finding an argument that...doesn't fit the situation. We're promoting Frenzy spiking because of its effectiveness even against good teams. If a team lets you slowly out-damage their healing with Battle Rage(which, as has been pointed out, is less than the damage from Frenzy+Eviscerate), then they must have really been sitting on their thumbs.

Rey Lentless · Jul 29, 2005, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Eviscerate and Exec strike do have the same amount of damage, the skill listing for eviscerate is outdated.

Scaphism: I think we're on the same page as far as skills are concerned, but differ on the role of a warrior. I consider the role of the warrior as sustained high dps. I prefer the play style that battle rage allows, being able to switch targets to anything, and continue to keep up a high dps. The spike certainly isn't as high, but the overall dps is much greater and relies less on what the other team is doing. I do think your role for the warrior is ultimately more powerful, but I prefer the flexibility and endurance that the role I generally accept for the warrior has.

Jake · Jul 29, 2005, 10:48 PM // 22:48

I posted this on the gwonline.net forums... although I don't know why I bothered ever posting there... the warrior section at least seems like it's packed full of uneducated players. GWG seems much more intellectual maybe I can get a decent reply.

----------------------------------------------------
I'll explain why I think eviscerate is better than battle rage in detail. Eviscerate does the same damage as executioner's strike, without it or cleave (which you won't have with battle rage) you're missing out on a huge portion of your damage using axes. My axe skill selection with what I use now is Eviscerate/Axe Rake/Exec strike/Disrupting Chop. Axe build without evis looks something along the lines of dismember/axe rake/exec strike/penetrating blow/disrupting chop. I added in penetrating blow because you're gonna need it, and maybe even have to sacrifice your cripple from rake or even worse, your key interrupt in chop. Penetrating blow IMO is very overrated and weak for a warrior's job, it's very good against heavily armored people but the MAJORITY of the time you'll be attacking 60 armor casters and penetrating blow's benefits are marginal, not even close to exec strike in terms of dps imo. Without eviscerate, you're stuck with dismember which does no bonus damage, you need the deep wound pretty much though I think most anyone will agree. Eviscerate gives you the double 112 crit combo (on casters) coupled with exec strike, with battle rage, your damage comes from exec strike or penetrating blow basically, maybe axe twist if you use it, other skills don't really contribute, without an axe skill elite you're missing out on massive dps despite the fact that you gain adrenaline at an insane rate.

I really fail to see how you're going to get better dps out of battle rage. Battle rage is a stance, I use eviscerate on my W/R that uses tiger's fury after crippling my opponent while building adrenaline with FGJ! during sprint. You effectively ruin any options of attack speed increase using battle rage, you can keep your run speed up forever, but you can't ever get an attack speed increase without the use of I Will Avenge You! which means less dps. There is the argument that if the opponent gets rid of cripple that I have no way to catch him until sprint is cooled down whereas battlerage will beable to keep up despite cripple. It's valid but I don't think it's nearly enough to warrant battlerage over eviscerate, besides with help from teammates, slowing down the opponent can be left to them, in which eviscerate really shines.

Then there's the dreaded "ends if you use a non-attack skill" drawback. If you go for a plague touch warrior or something like that, anytime you want to plague touch, you effectively screw yourself. It would be great if battlerage didn't kill your adrenaline by ending because you could build adrenaline, plague touch, and then re-battlerage, but you can't. This kills your dps, and despite battlerage being what some say "a perma-runspeed buff" you are basically required to keep sprint instead of freeing a skill slot to stay on your target. You could build your adrenaline by going after another stationary target then go back, but that's valuable dps wasted.

I think that's enough explanation, that's based on axes.. which is the most heavily adrenaline based weaponset. Maybe you don't use axes with battlerage, but I think I'd just end up saying something similar for hammers (battlerage instead of backbreaker or devastating blow? No way.) I don't really see much potential in swords either.

I've thought about this, I'd like to use battle rage, it'd be fun to use, but I don't see when it comes down to being the more effective warrior how battle rage will net you more dps than eviscerate. Please do back your argument up, I'm interested in hearing it.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Also after looking through this thread.. seems like there's some people who prefer cleave over eviscerate.. honestly I think cleave needs a buff, it's just not even close to eviscerate in terms of effectiveness from my experiences, maybe if eviscerate was still +24 damage cleave would be good, but it doesn't spike better nor free up a skill slot (which is very important) from dismember, and I'd even venture to say doesn't even produce more sustained dps than eviscerate although it'd be close and cleave might still have an edge there. Really though, the important thing to remember is you can only use your skills as fast as you're attacking, and if you have 2-3 adrenaline skills up at the same time it's not really helping you that a 4 adrenaline skill is back up again since you have to keep using it instead of your other skills. Also spamming adrenaline bottlenecks your adrenaline gain because everytime you use a skill you can't gain adrenaline, just at best stay where you are.

Tigris Of Gaul · Jul 31, 2005, 10:45 PM // 22:45

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...760#post301760

Zeru and I have already argued this, yet still people think BR is better for spiking, etc. Right.