Curse

Darkrouge101 · Aug 03, 2005, 08:02 AM // 08:02

Ok, so I've been checking different builds out, and here is what I've come up with to counter the flooding of Nature's Renewal teams.

This build is designed in this fashion (In a team of 8)
***2-3 Warriors (all of which will be described below, not the designated damage dealers)***
2 Healing/Protection monks
3 air spike elementalists (or other heavy damage/hexing classes)

Basically, the warriors are the key part of this build, so the last 5-6 characters may vary depending on your situation.

The reason this build should theoretically work so well is that it is designed around the fact that these Nature Renewal teams are desgined around a pure damaging setup, meaning they will have very few or no enchantments/hexes. Perfect.

This build will not ensure victory, for skill and luck are needed in this build (as with every other build when dealing with skilled opponents). So here it goes.

The warriors are key in this setup, as they will be the main interrupting source. The reason for the warriors to be the interrupting force is this: they have high armor, deal decent base attack damage, and can draw attention away from the casters. Here is a base setup for the Warrior class.

(*) denotes a Suggested skill, all others are optional

Warrior/(Monk preferrably for healing, substitute with basically anything else)
*Flourish (Elite skill)
*Disrupting Chop
*Distracting Blow
*Sheild Bash
*Any other subclass knockdown skills
Belly Smash (Nice to have if you are being attacked close range)
Warriors Cunning (Does this work on melee attack Skills? Or just attacks? Haven't tested.)

Here's how it works. The two-three warriors all rush the leading caster(s) of Nature's Renewal. As they are rushing, the healers stay back and wait to create a healing ball. As soon as the warriors can engage the casters (preventing NR from being re-casted) your healers cast healing seed, enchants, and then focus on hexing and attacking the casters (which will be already targeted by your main damage dealers)

The warriors in this setup are not designed to do major damage, but to keep the casters on the ground. Their tactics might look something like this:
Disrupting Chop-> Distracting Blow->Sheild Bash->Belly Smash->Flourish

With this attacking order, you can get off a bunch of knockdown skills, and then cast flourish to instantly ready those skills and give you 1-7 energy per skill readied.

Once the casters are disrupted (Mind you, this won't work for an extended period of time), your main damage dealers instantly spike the selected caster with all of their ability. In this way, you should be able to quickly take out 1-2 members of the opposing team (if you are lucky, they will be focused on taking out the guys that are disrupting the casters)

Preferrably, you should have one character that is mainly hex, that way you can inhibit any character that is free from being attacked. In this manner, you will have a bunch of hexes that you can barrage them with, and they have none of their own to counter.

Other than Warrior/Monk, W/E works as well too, maybe even better (if you have good healers) because of an elementalists' armor and ward spells, and earthquake (Yay earthquake). It's up to you to mess with this and create the best setup that suits your team.

Note: This tactic does not insure victory in any way, for it requires a decent amount of skill and a little bit of luck. Hopefully you guys can fine-tune my idea and make it a solid tactic

ElderAtronach · Aug 03, 2005, 08:30 AM // 08:30

With the number of anti-warrior measures out there, there's no real way you could pull that off, I'm afraid to say. You have to get past whirling defense first of all (so someone or a couple someones would have to bring wild blow). Then you have to get past wards and throw dirt, which can be covered up by poison, and then you have to get past balanced stance and oath shot, which will NOT be disabled by shield bash (only works against melee attacks).

Sorry, but try again. It was a good effort, but there's just no way warriors will be able to take down prepared teams of rangers without some help.

Darkrouge101 · Aug 03, 2005, 08:50 AM // 08:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElderAtronach

Sorry, but try again. It was a good effort, but there's just no way warriors will be able to take down prepared teams of rangers without some help.

Exactly. The warriors aren't taking out the rangers without help, because while they are rushing (and the casters are preparing spells to counter the warriors) your own casters can be a) attacking them or b) aiding the warriors.

Wards can be ran around.

If their casters waste all this time preparing the above skills you listed, that would give your own casters plenty of time to directly attack their casters. Or just have a monk bring Martyr to remove the conditions/etc.

Before you shut down a method perhaps you should think about the most important thing; Tactics. Nearly any situation can be countered by a different solution. My posted guide is just an outline of how your team would be set up, and is not a single way of defeating an enemy; just something to give your casters time to destroy the enemy.

Bring on the anti-warrior skills. Gives us more time to deal out hefty damage.

rii · Aug 03, 2005, 08:56 AM // 08:56

The problems of anti warrior can be gotten past, but using air eles on what will be predominatly ranger teams? theyll just shru it off. and you can run around wards all you want, theyll still be stood in the middle of them

Darkrouge101 · Aug 03, 2005, 08:59 AM // 08:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

The problems of anti warrior can be gotten past, but using air eles on what will be predominatly ranger teams? theyll just shru it off. and you can run around wards all you want, theyll still be stood in the middle of them

Air ele's was just an example. Any elem/class that can deal out massive damage in a short amount of time via high intensity skills... Nukers should work as well... ESPECIALLY if they are relying on wards. Meteors anyone?

Darkrouge101 · Aug 03, 2005, 09:01 AM // 09:01

Maybe even couple the warriors with a Healing Ball/Smiting monk combo... That'll give them a run for their money. They won't know which person to attack first :-P

ElderAtronach · Aug 03, 2005, 09:16 AM // 09:16

I didn't say your strategy would not work. I just think there are impracticalities which you are ignoring or aren't aware of, that would really hinder its success against a mostly-ranger team. I don't know how much you've played against them or in them, but its like healing ball without enchantments (which get stripped by NR anyway). Especially on altar maps, rangers will stand on the altar with spirits around them, putting multiple healing springs up that aren't dispellable. These will heal their entire party upwards of 50 points every 2 seconds for each one that is cast. Along with fertile season and rangers' natural armor bonuses against elemental spells, they are very very hard to kill off.

You had the right idea about disruption, but I think the wrong focus. Elementalists will still be needed, and they will be your main disrupting force. I mentioned in the other thread that meteor storm and earthquake disrupt nature rituals (just like any other skill). However these are temporary solutions and are not sustainable for prolonged periods of time due to exhaustion caused by all of the knock-down causing spells. They do provide your team with a window of opportunity in between their castings of healing spring, or spirits, or whatever though. If your team is coordinated, you can chain nukes and get disruption going about every 3 seconds. You have to kill them quickly when they're being mass-disrupted by AoE knockdown nukes.

rii · Aug 03, 2005, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Any ele is going to have a hard time against a ranger. 100al base + possibly more is something you dont want to happen on your main offense. Im saying, drop the eles completly, and get necros/mesmers/rangers with your warriors. Shudown combined with the warrior dps should be enough.

Arathorn5000 · Aug 03, 2005, 11:01 AM // 11:01

First of all, he keeps calling the spirit rangers "casters", leading me to believe he doesn't really know about spirit groups. Their whole build isn't designed around renewal either, it's just something they spam with their other good spirits because they don't need enchantments. He also doesn't realize that if you have warriors charging up to the spirit ranger, that ranger can hit whirling defense (stance) and instantly have 75% chance to evade any attack, for a considerable amount of time. Plus, the whole idea of warriors as interrupters is flawed...I'm led to believe Darkrouge is a warrior himself. The truth is, rangers and mesmers will be much better at interrupting and shutting down their team's pure spirit ranger(s).

Or am I wrong, and there actually is a "nature's renewal build" that isn't the spirit group?

Neo-LD · Aug 03, 2005, 11:20 AM // 11:20

Wait, so far the OP has suggested fighting NR with elementalists and Healing ball...

Tetra · Aug 03, 2005, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Meteor shower sux against rng/mes. I only took 20damage from meteor shower. And I am not even standing inside ward.

rii · Aug 03, 2005, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Still a kd as secondary effect though ^^

ElderAtronach · Aug 03, 2005, 02:33 PM // 14:33

The KD effect is what is important. The fire damage will be neglible anyways against rangers. You can throw in an E/Mo smiter with Balth's aura to bring more consistent damage into the play. Just time it right with the meteor showers, lol.

Sammiel · Aug 03, 2005, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElderAtronach

The KD effect is what is important. The fire damage will be neglible anyways against rangers. You can throw in an E/Mo smiter with Balth's aura to bring more consistent damage into the play. Just time it right with the meteor showers, lol.

If you really wanted to 'nuke' the rangers you would be far better off bringing a blood necro or a mesmer. Probably a mesmer would be ideal with something like a mix of inspiration and domination, leaning towards dom mostly. Energy burn, energy surge, cry of frustration, mantra of frost, leech signet, ether feast, energy tap or drain (whichever isn't elite), signet of humility. A necro/me condition spreader may work ok too.

rii · Aug 03, 2005, 02:57 PM // 14:57

when you can get the damage of each meteor to 134 that aint secondary. eles are high impact burst dpsers, its just since meteor shower has kd, as a secondary skill its still alright against rangers although the damage, which is the important bit, is low.

knives · Aug 03, 2005, 04:11 PM // 16:11

6 mesmers 2 monsk.

Cry of frustration mes #1
CoF mes #2 right after

Just alternate since each will probably recharge after the others are done. Also bring power block and see how many of their WS skills get disabled.

Xellos · Aug 03, 2005, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Your sacrificing your ability to do anything to people who don't use NR in exchange for a chance to beat NR. That's hilarious.

kalaris · Aug 03, 2005, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Its sad to say but elementalsts vs ranger = bad...

Winter and fur lined armor.... yeah... no damage. I took a 4 from a metor the other day =P

Honestly what I find funny about the spirit group thing is that the only way to deal with it is to assume you're going to be fighting it, build around it, and then by that point you're better off taking spirits yourself.

Welcome to the wonderful world of imbalance.

Forboding Angel · Aug 03, 2005, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Rangers are the bane of necros (I can attest to this myself but I have solved the problem of the ranger damage scheme vs my necro). Necro's if set up properly can also be the bane of rangers.

What most people don't realize is that a necro is at his best when he has a low life total. Reason being is life sacing. If your life total is lower it is easier to keep yourself alive because you sac hardly any health ( I currently lose about 20 health when I sac and with vamps gaze I gain 63 health which means that I can spam dark pact and vamps gaze alternately for a looong time. Usually dmg is as follows: 51, 63, 51, 51, 51, 63, etc. every second)

Anyway, I believe that necs and mesmers are the key to defeating nr groups.

kalaris · Aug 03, 2005, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forboding Angel

What most people don't realize is that a necro is at his best when he has a low life total. Reason being is life sacing. If your life total is lower it is easier to keep yourself alive because you sac hardly any health

Thats all fine and dandy and you are correct, but the problem comes when they target you, My ranger can do spikes of about 110 (gasp a ranger with damagE) with only really 50 of it mitagable by armor, if you're at 200 health, and me and another ranger target you.... you'll be making out with the dirt real fast.

I think we're gonna see a rise in spirit groups as long as spirit groups dominate, and anyone else with a new and original idea, get beaten by a broken combination of spirits.... when they lose faith, they will become a spirit group... thats just the way of the world.