Curse

octaviancmb · Aug 07, 2005, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ollj

So you say (for Baltazars aura) it is worth 20 attribute points to boost it from 21 to 22 while I just use 7 attribute points to bost it from 16 to17?

It doesnt matter what kind of damage it is, how long it lasts and what the skill costs.
Its effect strength is just not increasing enough to justify spending more than 7 attribute points in it.

Most healing/protection skills only increase enough to justify pushing attribute skill to ~12, not higher.
and yes, im calculating with half points (aka peanuts) here, but they sum up a lot and they sum up the more, the longer you play.

I think there are three arguments here. Of *course* if all you're doing is running a single skill from an entire attribute set, spending 20 points on raising it one pip is usually worthless (but not always). That's argument #1, and yeah, I think we'd all agree here.

However, if you've got an entire skill bar filled with just skills from one attribute (say, Protection Prayers), then *of course* it's worth 20 points to raise protection one pip. Nothing else is doing you any good. That's argument #2.

The argument underlying all of this (argument #3) is that one should spend ones attribute points based on the skills on ones bar.

I don't think anyone would really disagree with any of these positions.

Now if you want to argue that a *rounded* monk is better for groups than a specialist monk, that's an argument only solvable through play and will ultimately come down to opinion and situation. I've found from my experience as a monk that I'm better off specializing; it helps compensate for idiot PUGs much better than if I were mixing my skill bar and lowering my efficiency. It also helps me find the right group. I can just say, "Protection monk LFG" and people know what I do. I also often change both my skill bar and attribute allocation based on the composition of my group. It all depends on situation, what the goal of my group is, and, as always, what is fun.

CMB

Xue Yi Liang · Aug 07, 2005, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Ollj, so far you're still just explaining the merits of a "balanced" build - nobody will contest that issue.

But you have yet to prove your original statement - that full Protectors/Healers = BULLSHIT. All you've shown is how maxed attributes are inappropriate for "balanced" builds that rest on multiple attributes. Full Protectors don't spread their responsibilities that way.

Mister Glue · Aug 07, 2005, 08:48 PM // 20:48

As Xue said, Ollj is just explaining how a totally balanced character should be. Unfortunately for Ollj, I doubt anyone would want a perfectly balanced build over one that could actually work well. If the game was focused around going solo and fighting alone, then this thread would be worth something. Unfortunately, there is a huge emphasis on teams in the game, almost ruling out a "balanced" character in favor of a "balanced" build.

Now, if Ollj wants to actually put his examples into some context with the rest of the team or a situation he would be in where this would be useful, that'd be super. Until then, as everyone else in the thread has said: "no."

Rusty Deth · Aug 07, 2005, 08:50 PM // 20:50

I don't know what he's saying either...

But when i first started my Monk it was a Healing/smiting build. It worked well for a while spending points in only Smite, Healing, and Divine Favor.

But when I got to the desert this got old. I had to switch to healing/protection. But i didn't limit myself to just the Monk skills. Aegis is the only one i use from protection spells cause its super effective. But I only got protection at 10 so it lasts 9 seconds. Too offset that i changed my Monk from a Mo/Nec to a Mo/Ele after ascension.

Then I eqiuped the wards from earth magic to whatever the situation needs. Lots of spell casters, Use Ward of Elements. Lots of melee's, use Ward of Melee.

The time in which those two last, and their recharges means i can keep having protection up thru a whole battle.

But then the healing comes in. I Enchant myself with Divine Boon so Orision is more powerful when needed. Also I keep Heal Other on hand for those taking too much damage. And Healing seed just incase i have some dry time between Aegis and whichever ward I'm using. And if i get hit i just run liek ussual.

Doing this allows my energy to recharge quite fine with only +3 since i got an enchantment. But since i switched to this I been doing less work, and the party stays alive alot longer.

And Earth, Protection, Healing, and divine are all at 10.

But really i think it comes down to what skills your using, how you use them, and your patience during battle. Not just where you put your AP points thinking all is good cause you got healign at 15.

Yeah that would be cool, but i hate hittng Orision/Healing Breeze all the time. This build lets me sit back and actually enjoy the battles instead of constantly watching the party menu.

Ollj · Aug 07, 2005, 09:30 PM // 21:30

I calculated trough some fairly comparing examples with the following Result:
The Effect amount of "mixed builds (11 10 10 3) " is ~80% of the effect amount of specialisated builds (12 12 3) (set to 100%) that use exactly the same monk skills and rune amount.

so the price of (max reasonable) flexibility is (up to) -20% "power"!!! (i expected something around -5%

)

But there are more attributes than 8 specialisated players can use and you should not underestimate that flexibility and tactics to maxdamage and strategy.

taion · Aug 07, 2005, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Ollj: That's great that you took down the Unworthy Dead. However, it doesn't sound like you've either gotten to Halls or seen the inside of a GvG match with your build. Realistic factors including playstyle make this sort of setup undesirable.

Xue Yi Liang · Aug 07, 2005, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Ollj has yet to prove his original statement - that full "Protectors/Healers = BULLSHIT."

Xue Yi Liang · Aug 07, 2005, 10:02 PM // 22:02

The law of Diminishing Returns is not the only factor to consider. If that were the case we could make the following argument about the cost of warrior armor.

Ascalon ringmail armor costs 50 gold per piece at armor class 35.
That's 35/50 = 0.7 armor for each gold piece.

Now we go to the Yak's bend ringmail 150 gold per piece for armor class 50.
That's 50/150 = 0.3 armor for each gold piece

Now we go to Draknor's Forge 1,500 gold per piece for armor class 80.
That's 80/1,500 = 0.053 armor for each gold piece.

OMG! (sarcasm) - that's a waste of gold which could be used for weapons and gear. "Clearly" one should stick to the Ascalon armor because the armor gained for gold becomes miniscule.

I hate to be so harsh with my statements - but Ollj made a bold antagonistic claim - one that he has yet to support convincingly.

Ollj · Aug 07, 2005, 10:30 PM // 22:30

so i thought more about "for every extra attribute flexibility you lose 20% power" statement and now its cristal clear (and changed my point of view so thanks for the discussions):

Wont make that table here so read here instead.

Resulting thoughts:

If you have a primary class twice theres no good reason not to specialisate each of them apart from each other (I dont see one yet).

Now you can be specialisated and play stone/paper/scissors and all specialisated builds, no big problem with that.

If you have a primary class only once in your build it might be a good idea to despecialize it, to make it more flexible, more tactical, and 20% weaker in damage and duration of skills. Flexibility is still good in battle.

The topic statement still stands strong for me:
The "spike classes" Elementalist and Warrior should the only classes that are twice in a build because "spike skills" are screaming for specialisation in it, while others dont that much.
The other 4 classes therefore should NOT be [12 12 3] if they are only once in the team.
Thus Healing and protecting are forced to fuse into one monk.
also see the myth of the two monks

of course relatively bad players will always scream for "more monks" and then that monks have to specialisae away from each other to make the best of it.

Mhydrian · Aug 07, 2005, 11:42 PM // 23:42

12 Healing
9 Protection
12 Divine Favor
10 Blood magic

Great Offering of blood Monk build.

For PVE I usually take

Heal Other || Healing Touch || Reversal Fort|| Devotion Sig || Aegis || Offering of Blood || Protective spirit || Rez skill

PVP same thing except I drop aegis and pro spirit for mend ailment, and a hex removal. Sometimes Ill take pro spirit and purge siget.

Very versatile and flexible build. And energy is never an issue. Basically get 11 energy for using offering of blood, which is on a quick recharge timer. Reversal of fortune is one of the very best monk skills in the game, its fast and powerful, at pro 9 its a 54 healing return, which is fine most blows dont hit much harder.

Ensign · Aug 07, 2005, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Ollj made up an equation for skill effectiveness and now treats it as a form of build gospel. It is as convincing as any theory pulled out of nowhere with little substantive backing.

It should also be taken into consideration that Ollj has been posting insane ramblings of this sort for weeks.

Net result? This theory doesn't make any sense, Ollj continues to post nonsense, and while closing posts because the poster is crazy is an abuse of authority, ridicule is fair play.

Peace,
-CxE

Aug 08, 2005, 12:07 AM // 00:07

I come back from a 3 day conference to this shit? yay

Rey Lentless · Aug 08, 2005, 12:48 AM // 00:48

This is like using some equation to tell us the assembly line actually lowers production.

Specialization is the way of the world. Quit trying to use math equations to refute common sense. There are 8 skills on a bar, and that's it. That makes maxing out abilities worth it. Period.

pHobac · Aug 08, 2005, 01:40 AM // 01:40

I appologize for the length of this post, longwindedness is a habit many philosphy majors aquire.

My video card burned out in June, and I only just got it replaced, so maybe I missed a game update that fundamentaly changed the mechanics of the game, in the event that such an update did come out I appologize in advance for saying that none of the points you have made do anything to support your original statement, and many of them dont make any sense.

Quote:

To get these "most effective skill point usage" you just have to look how much your green numbers increase and how much you pay for that in attribute points! - of course the skills cost, cast time and recharge time is ignored here

Well, you can't ignore cast time and recharge time in any build because they are too important. If your build uses a bunch of skills that take 6 seconds to cast and 45 seconds to recharge you probably wont accomplish much. As a consequence of this, if I want to be a totally focused healing monk, able to constantly be healing someone, I will need to have many healing skills, so that I can still be healing with fast recharge skills, while the skills with longer cooldowns are recharging.

Quote:

Overspecialisated one sided Monks are (generally) not using their attribute points optimal!!!

I don't mean to nag but, optimally.

Quote:

Gash is a wasted skill slot with 16 Swordsmanship but NOT when used with only 7 Swordsmanship (as secondary Warrior).

Well, this one kinda came out of the blue, but I would disagree that gash is ever a wasted skill, if you inted to be attacking an enemy with a sword why not take off 20% of their max hp. I can't speak as to the effectivness for a Mo/W specifically, but I use gash on R/W and it is certainly not a wasted skill, because anything that does DOT, bleeding and poison for this example, becomes more effective against a foe with fewer hit points. By lowering an enemy's max hp by 20% you increase the overall effectivness of that DOT relative to their max HP by that same percentage.

Now for everyone who read the previous paragraph and realized that the argument in it doesn't hold up, the reason I put it there was to illustrate a point. Percentages don't equate to a valid argument. The statement about a 20% increase in the effectiveness of DOT is true, but only over the sample of time that your enemy has the reduced HP. When that deep wound wears off they regain the 20% and the long term sample of DOT remains the same. I used a misleading number to support a statement that I really can't say is true.

Which brings me to my next point

Quote:

I calculated trough some fairly comparing examples with the following Result:The Effect amount of "mixed builds (11 10 10 3) " is ~80% of the effect amount of specialisated builds (12 12 3) (set to 100%) that use exactly the same monk skills and rune amount.

so the price of (max reasonable) flexibility is (up to) -20% "power"!!! (i expected something around -5% )

Now this next bit is from the page that OLLJ got his 20% figure from. If you dont really want to read it skip down and I explain why I bring this up.

According to Guild Wiki, which you reffered as support for your argument:
--there is a chart that I don't particulary feel like redoing, because I am lazy, but OLLJ made a link to the page I am quoting if you really want to see it--

* A1-A4 (and rest) are Attribute Skill Levels of any attribute (without runes).
* Average is the average attribute level of all skills of an "average skill bar" you might use with that. This directly compares how "strong" the Green Number effects of such an attribute spending would be of your skill bar.
* for example: [15 11 11] is more flexible, but only ~80% as strong as [16 13] - someone that just cares for maximum damage should use [16 13], tactical players are open for [14 11 9 9].
* In general every extra attribute for more flexibility in your build means a loss of 20% in "green number power".

The reason I refference all of this is to point out that if OLLJ believes this chart, then his two monks from above are mathematically weaker than two specialized monks.

I say this because the two monks he posted earlier in this thread fall into the category of [15 11 11] and [14 11 9 9], that is to say that they have those scores in their attributes. The GuidWiki page says that you lose 20% effectivness for every extra step down the attribute chart, so the [15 11 11] build is 80% as effective as a [16 13] build, and the [14 11 9 9] is 60% as effective. This makes two monks, who together, are 40% more effective than a single [16 13] monk. So if we take this chart as accurate, than two [16 13] monks would be 100% more effective than one [16 13] monk, and as a result 60% (again I use a misleading number to make a point) more effective than your two monks.

So unless you change the premises of your argument you have infact disproved your original statement. Perhaps you shouldn't have brought up the 20% loss of effectivness thing...

NIB · Aug 08, 2005, 12:34 PM // 12:34

What the initial poster doesnt take into account is casting time and skill slots. You can only have 8 skill slots. So as a healer i can take orizon, sig of dev, heal other, healing touch, healing seed, drain enchantment, drain energy, res sig(just a random healer build, i change it depending what my team does). And i have like 10 insp, 12 heal, 12 divine.

Now, which skill should i sacrifice and which skill i should add from protection prayers? And what will my final stats look like? Should i get like reversal instead of orizon and lower my healing to increase protection? But that would "heal" less than having a stronger orizon and other healing skills.

Anyway, what i am saying is that you cant spread points into more than 3 attributes, simply because you dont have enough skills slots and simply because you can only cast 1 skill at any time. And since monk skills have low recharge times, you can just keep spamming 2 healing skills. IMO any monk who doesnt have energy management skills, is completely useless(especially with all those qz).

JackOften · Aug 08, 2005, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xue Yi Liang

The law of Diminishing Returns is not the only factor to consider. If that were the case we could make the following argument about the cost of warrior armor.

Ascalon ringmail armor costs 50 gold per piece at armor class 35.
That's 35/50 = 0.7 armor for each gold piece.

Now we go to the Yak's bend ringmail 150 gold per piece for armor class 50.
That's 50/150 = 0.3 armor for each gold piece

Now we go to Draknor's Forge 1,500 gold per piece for armor class 80.
That's 80/1,500 = 0.053 armor for each gold piece.

OMG! (sarcasm) - that's a waste of gold which could be used for weapons and gear. "Clearly" one should stick to the Ascalon armor because the armor gained for gold becomes miniscule.

I hate to be so harsh with my statements - but Ollj made a bold antagonistic claim - one that he has yet to support convincingly.

We have a winner!