Curse

Zeru · Jul 24, 2005, 07:44 AM // 07:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

You people realize, that you enemy not having energy is a good thing right?

Edit:Bolded for effect.

Your logic is abysmal: Energy denial is very good, so I am going to run a build that relies on my opponent having energy in order to do anything.

Yeah...

Furthermore a ranger/mesmer with sig weary echo debil tigers and serpents will be able to produce way more energy denial on single targets than a burn/surge mesmer (at least doing the work of 2 mes). And if the opponent is bunched up in a way that would make surge work, a warrior/mesmer with flurry echo fear me for great justice sig weary will be able to produce better energy denial than many mesmers (I'm gonna go with 4+ on guesswork) with burn/surge as their primary tools. Their damage won't be spectactular but it will be something.

So not only does your build have an inherent flaw of destroying the only means to do damage, you are severely inefficient in doing something that you say is very good (and I agree with that; energy denial is insanely strong).

Surge *may* have a limited support use in certain builds but designing a mes build, let alone a team build, is simply dumb.

Jul 24, 2005, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

All Blackace and Kaylee want to do is instantly put it down because they didnt think of it.

Of course I didnt think of it. It's incredibly dumb. When you finally cap Energy Surge go wtfpwnbbq all the rest of us who were just too stupid to notice this skill. There's a reason there werent mass Mesmer or Necro teams and it takes a sliver of intelligence akin to reading the back of a cereal box to see why.

ICURADik · Jul 24, 2005, 08:03 AM // 08:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

Your logic is abysmal: Energy denial is very good, so I am going to run a build that relies on my opponent having energy in order to do anything.

Yeah...

Furthermore a ranger/mesmer with sig weary echo debil tigers and serpents will be able to produce way more energy denial on single targets than a burn/surge mesmer (at least doing the work of 2 mes). And if the opponent is bunched up in a way that would make surge work, a warrior/mesmer with flurry echo fear me for great justice sig weary will be able to produce better energy denial than many mesmers (I'm gonna go with 4+ on guesswork) with burn/surge as their primary tools. Their damage won't be spectactular but it will be something.

So not only does your build have an inherent flaw of destroying the only means to do damage, you are severely inefficient in doing something that you say is very good (and I agree with that; energy denial is insanely strong).

Surge *may* have a limited support use in certain builds but designing a mes build, let alone a team build, is simply dumb.

This is one or two skill that relies on them having energy. Rofl. By no means does a mesmer build rely on them having energy.

Linkie · Jul 24, 2005, 10:30 AM // 10:30

Let's see.

1. A monk is usually running with a max energy of ~45. This means your Surge will do ~360 damage. A Monk usually have ~530 Health.

2. After the initial spike, any decent team will be quick to spread out.

3. Under Nature's Renewal, the casting time of Surge will be 4 seconds. Plenty of time for interrupts or spreadouts. Thus you can also usually forget about cover hexes (ie. you'll have a hard time shutting down warriors with Visage/Soothing Images).

4. Nature's Renewal will remove all hexes. So you can forget about hex stacking.

5. What's your uber plan to do damage after the initial spike and denial? Wastrel's + Mind Wrack? You don't need much energy to outheal that. (quick focus swap would own it anyway).

6. Lightening Surge is also crap, it's so easy to remove it's not even funny. Not to mention telling the world what your target it. And then to make it even more ubar, you'll have to love the double cast time under NR.

Third Quarter · Jul 24, 2005, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linkie

3. Under Nature's Renewal, the casting time of Surge will be 4 seconds. Plenty of time for interrupts or spreadouts. Thus you can also usually forget about cover hexes (ie. you'll have a hard time shutting down warriors with Visage/Soothing Images).

Energy Surge isn't a hex. It is unaffected by Nature's Renewal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linkie

4. Nature's Renewal will remove all hexes. So you can forget about hex stacking.

Some hexes aren't meant to stick around for long anyway. (eg Diversion)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linkie

5. What's your uber plan to do damage after the initial spike and denial? Wastrel's + Mind Wrack? You don't need much energy to outheal that. (quick focus swap would own it anyway).

I think this is the real issue. "Gimmick" builds are rarely viable.

ICURADik · Jul 24, 2005, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linkie

Let's see.

1. A monk is usually running with a max energy of ~45. This means your Surge will do ~360 damage. A Monk usually have ~530 Health.

2. After the initial spike, any decent team will be quick to spread out.

3. Under Nature's Renewal, the casting time of Surge will be 4 seconds. Plenty of time for interrupts or spreadouts. Thus you can also usually forget about cover hexes (ie. you'll have a hard time shutting down warriors with Visage/Soothing Images).

4. Nature's Renewal will remove all hexes. So you can forget about hex stacking.

5. What's your uber plan to do damage after the initial spike and denial? Wastrel's + Mind Wrack? You don't need much energy to outheal that. (quick focus swap would own it anyway).

6. Lightening Surge is also crap, it's so easy to remove it's not even funny. Not to mention telling the world what your target it. And then to make it even more ubar, you'll have to love the double cast time under NR.

Is doing 360 damage to a monk and removing all his energy such a bad thing? How will Energy Surge have a 4 second cast time? Why do people insist it's impossible to stop someone from casting a 5 second nature ritual with a team of 4+ mesmers?

Edit: Focus Swap? Now then they just nuke you for another 30*8=240

Sarus · Jul 24, 2005, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Energy Surge isn't a hex. It is unaffected by Nature's Renewal.

Linkie got wtfpwned.

Quote:

Lightening Surge is also crap, it's so easy to remove it's not even funny. Not to mention telling the world what your target it. And then to make it even more ubar, you'll have to love the double cast time under NR.

They way most teams use it, it is crap. That being said if you have 2 guys running it and throw it up on different targets at the same time the opposing team won't know who is gonna get spiked. Yeah it's easy to remove but if you throw 2 of them up one will probably get through. Especially if you have a mesmer or necro throwing up random hexes which eat up the opposing teams hex removal.

The double casting time isn't that big of deal since you would open with lighting surge it won't mess up the timing of the spike. Of course it becomes easy to interrupt and quite possibly if the other team is paying attention they will have more time to know the spike is coming.

Kaylee Ann · Jul 24, 2005, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

But a heavy mesmer team has just been waiting to be done.

It has been done, several times that I know just bymyself (not including the other *.* people that can probably think of a couple times that they ran into it), but it isn't a FoTM so you obviously can't comprehend that fact....

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

I know you think you know everything possible about every possible skill combo/build in the game, but I'm not impressed by that.

Its not that at all actually, but what I do think is:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

I don't even have the skill unlocked. I plan to get it this weekend with my mes and test it out...

Atleast I have the skill unlocked, and have tried it out before. What you don't realize, and are too short sited to see, is that most of the people against the skill HAVE ACTUALLY USED IT BEFORE... Even guilds that are remotely half decent go into the team arenas, or set up dummy guilds, to test these exact things. You can take 2 guild groups of 4 into the international districts of the arenas, hit start at the same time, and have a very good chance of being against each other.

But hey, you read it on a web page, which you said youself can be wrong, so you are definately the expert on it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freyas

The problem you'll run into with an 8-mesmer team is that you're pretty weak to straight damage, and your damage output isn't as high as the other teams is likely to be.

1. Conditional subpar damage
2. No healing capabilities
3. Lack of a defense of any kind what-so-ever
4. Lots of extremely squishy targets
5. Entirely based on the other group literally being on top of each other

Sign me up

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

You people realize, that you enemy not having energy is a good thing right?

And do you realize, that once the other team runs out of energy you are going to be right around the corner? Obviously not because you have never ran a mesmer heavy group before. You have no one to drain, and you are whipping around 10+ energy skills like it is going out of style, on a class that has about 50 mana even with a 10% bonus. Then it goes back to what everyone has been saying since the beginning of this post: 2 warriors are going to smash your group into the ground.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

As usual you abstain from posting your own ideas, and simply telling others they are clueless noobs.

As usual, you obviously can't read. At the beginning of this thread I posted several things on builds that were mesmer heavy. The most successful I have ever seen, and used for that matter, was 3 mesmers, 2 warriors, and 3 monks.

2 mesmers with echo and signet of weariness, along with every other energy denial skill possible.

1 mesmer with signet also, misc energy denial skills, some backup shutdown skills in the event of wards or some other defensive character, and something like panic as an elite, which he is throwing around as much as possible.

2 wars

3 monks set up for healing/prot under the most extreme of lack of energy conditions

The mesmers aoe drain the hell out of everything possible, panic everyone you can so they can't regen as effectively, and the warriors go to town. It is by far not the best build in the world, but we got it too work, and that was after testing god only knows how many other variations of mesmer heavy builds, including one running energy surge.

But hey, like I said, you read it on a web page so you must know what you are talking about....

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

Is doing 360 damage to a monk and removing all his energy such a bad thing?

And, it only took your entire group to do it, when a fire ele and a mesmer can easily do the same thing, do it better, and do it C-O-N-S-I-S-T-E-N-T-L-Y and on multiple targets.

arredondo · Jul 24, 2005, 06:18 PM // 18:18

"All peasants of Guild Wars, hear ye hear ye, the great beta weekend elders have spoken! Don't bother trying to explore something because they've already done everything possible!"

Or have they? Obviously quite a number of you truly know a lot, but I'm sure none of you can say that you've come up with/experimented with every use of these skills that is possible. Again, with so many combinations of skills, classes, character builds and team builds, it's counter-productive to the GW xommunity to see some of the pompousness displayed when the non-elite people try and work through any ideas they may have. So what if they don't get it perfect right away (many raw concepts need work)? In the end many ideas will never have in real world use, but even Thomas Edison blew out 100 bulbs before he got one to stay lit.

Up above I took what was given as an example of an Air Elementalist's common spike combo for "quick" damage and I matched it with a Mesmer one that does more damage in less time for the same energy cost. AGAIN I'm not saying over the long haul that this one example is the perfect alternative to Air Spiking (if that's what one wants to do) , but I wanted to show that some attempts of making a Mesmer do nice damage if needed isn't so pitifully ridiculous as some here want to reflexively claim.

From the post above mine, a critique of why even considering Energy Surge builds for damage is ridiculous:

Quote:

1. Conditional subpar damage

Conditional? Isn't all damage dealing conditional (i.e. works unless it's stopped)? I'm not being sarcastic here, but maybe I misunderstand the use of the word in this context. Any idea has a few counters and all damage dealing skills have ideal circumstances that we'd want them to work in.

If you are referring to Energy Surge/Burn builds, then my starter setup above shows that they only need to have 20E to make it work... that's not a major requirement that's so inflexible to disregard the possibilities. I tested a build using these skills last night and only the Warrior occassionaly took less damage because of low energy (enemies with low energy.... a GOOD thing!).

Subpar damage? Well the "spike" I compared above with my idea wasn't subpar. And one can build around it I'm sure. In the end you'd still likely have the Air Ele dealing higher total damage over the long haul, but the benefits of the Mesmer's other skill properties can still keep it valuable in certain scenarios. Again, I'm not saying it's even as good in the total package of things.... just suggesting it's not so far off the mark that it doesn't deserve a closer look from a fresh pair of eyes who haven't already written it off.

Quote:

2. No healing capabilities

If you're talking about a specific total build listed here that has no healing capabilities, then this may not apply. If youy're talking in general about an all-Mesmer team then of course the healing wouldn't be the strong point (saying "no" healing is incorrect however).

Apply the same standard to the Elementalist - of all classes in Guild Wars that is the ONLY one with no healing options whatsoever. Does that alone make it an unuseable class? No, because you have access to other classes to compensate, like the Mesmer, which then gets complicated as to what of the tens of thousands of combinations one can come up with to make a successful idea work.

Quote:

3. Lack of a defense of any kind what-so-ever

This one puzzled me the most (unless a specific build is being referred to) because in so many ways, the Mesmer has plenty of defensive abilities. Hexes? Three options. Protection from damage? A number of useful options. Anti-melee? Tons of options. Anti-caster? More options than anyone.

Quote:

4. Lots of extremely squishy targets

And an all Elementalist team isn't "squishy"? I guess if taken alone, with no comparison to another "pure" class, I'm inclined to agree that it may not be worth trying to go with an all-primary (X) team with any class. But as far as making a useful Mesmer dominant team, who truly knows all the possibilities and limitations can be managed to make it successful once in awhile. Exploring uncharted waters is what partially makes the game fun.

Quote:

5. Entirely based on the other group literally being on top of each other

Again, one buiild in particular or a comment on the class as a whole? With all the skills still being looked at closely, new variations of things (or improvements of older ideas) help get just a little bit more over what was once thought possible.

If you're referring to potential Energy Surge/Burn builds, you must note that most successful Ele spike groups make it work by "being on top of each other" - that's not a criticism but an observation that they work together to get the job done. Many other factors contribute to help a team acheive victory, so putting arbitrary restraints on a tactic doesn't help achieve that purpose. If people continue to work on strong Mesmer builds (or any build class) that turn into strong Mesmer-themed teams, then all that counts is whether or not it works decently enough (since no build is perfect), regardless of how it works.

Phades · Jul 24, 2005, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Somehow i envision a team of mesmers trying to deal damage via burn and see the opposing team strip down to almost no armor and beat them due to the shift in energy pools and the largely absent ways for a mesmer to deal mitigatable damage via AL. Then put their clothing back on after the mesmer "spike" ran its course.

Linkie · Jul 24, 2005, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

Is doing 360 damage to a monk and removing all his energy such a bad thing? How will Energy Surge have a 4 second cast time? Why do people insist it's impossible to stop someone from casting a 5 second nature ritual with a team of 4+ mesmers?

Edit: Focus Swap? Now then they just nuke you for another 30*8=240

Alright, I newbed it on the cast time, but anyway:

What do you do when you've removed all the energy?

Wow, you really think it takes me 2 seconds to focus swap, throw a heal and switch back? Even if I would be a slow RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOer, you'd have to actually see me focus swap before you start your 2 second cast damage spell.

Cyan · Jul 24, 2005, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

If you enemy has 0 energy as you suggest... then how are they going to spike you, or remove you IW, or do anything to you for that matter?

Edit: Relying on Prot spirit against a team of mesmers with 14 dom Shatter Enchantments with a 10 second recast is suicide.

As you so aptly put it, if the enemy team has 0 energy, then what are you going to do with your billion copies of energy surge and burn?

ICURADik · Jul 24, 2005, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Double post?^^

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaylee Ann

It has been done, several times that I know just bymyself (not including the other *.* people that can probably think of a couple times that they ran into it), but it isn't a FoTM so you obviously can't comprehend that fact....

Its not that at all actually, but what I do think is:

Atleast I have the skill unlocked, and have tried it out before. What you don't realize, and are too short sited to see, is that most of the people against the skill HAVE ACTUALLY USED IT BEFORE... Even guilds that are remotely half decent go into the team arenas, or set up dummy guilds, to test these exact things. You can take 2 guild groups of 4 into the international districts of the arenas, hit start at the same time, and have a very good chance of being against each other.

But hey, you read it on a web page, which you said youself can be wrong, so you are definately the expert on it.

1. Conditional subpar damage
2. No healing capabilities
3. Lack of a defense of any kind what-so-ever
4. Lots of extremely squishy targets
5. Entirely based on the other group literally being on top of each other

Sign me up

And do you realize, that once the other team runs out of energy you are going to be right around the corner? Obviously not because you have never ran a mesmer heavy group before. You have no one to drain, and you are whipping around 10+ energy skills like it is going out of style, on a class that has about 50 mana even with a 10% bonus. Then it goes back to what everyone has been saying since the beginning of this post: 2 warriors are going to smash your group into the ground.

As usual, you obviously can't read. At the beginning of this thread I posted several things on builds that were mesmer heavy. The most successful I have ever seen, and used for that matter, was 3 mesmers, 2 warriors, and 3 monks.

2 mesmers with echo and signet of weariness, along with every other energy denial skill possible.

1 mesmer with signet also, misc energy denial skills, some backup shutdown skills in the event of wards or some other defensive character, and something like panic as an elite, which he is throwing around as much as possible.

2 wars

3 monks set up for healing/prot under the most extreme of lack of energy conditions

The mesmers aoe drain the hell out of everything possible, panic everyone you can so they can't regen as effectively, and the warriors go to town. It is by far not the best build in the world, but we got it too work, and that was after testing god only knows how many other variations of mesmer heavy builds, including one running energy surge.

But hey, like I said, you read it on a web page so you must know what you are talking about....

And, it only took your entire group to do it, when a fire ele and a mesmer can easily do the same thing, do it better, and do it C-O-N-S-I-S-T-E-N-T-L-Y and on multiple targets.

lol...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linkie

Alright, I newbed it on the cast time, but anyway:

What do you do when you've removed all the energy?

Wow, you really think it takes me 2 seconds to focus swap, throw a heal and switch back? Even if I would be a slow RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOer, you'd have to actually see me focus swap before you start your 2 second cast damage spell.

Focus swapping is far less sucessful than you make it out to be. There is signifigant lag associated with switching weapon sets. The game literally takes a couple seconds to recognize your new weapons, update your correct weapons on the server, and send you back your new energy pool. I was sorely dissapointed when I first tried quickly hitting f2 then that important heal. As was stated before, Mind Wrack is mediocre, but it does do damage, a very signifigant amount of damage for it's energy cost/cast time. You can focus swap all you want. But as soon as you switch back to your old weapon you will have a nice present waiting for you.

I've probalby said this a good 6-8 times. I am not advocating an 8 mesmer team. You will have other people on your team. I think an IW Mes/R or Wa would be very sucessful if supported correctly, and played well. This character would by no means need their enemy to have energy to do damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyan

As you so aptly put it, if the enemy team has 0 energy, then what are you going to do with your billion copies of energy surge and burn?

I don't think this is worth answering.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyan

Your forgetting the 3 second delay on lightning surge

I don't see him forgetting it at all.

Zeru · Jul 24, 2005, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Cyan is right.

Air spike is like this.

Cast Surge, cast Orb right away, cast Chain Lightning. Orb hits within a quarter second of surge and chain lightning hits within the next 3 seconds. In terms of spike you're doing your 300+ dmg...in about 3 seconds. In terms of spike damage it's the time elapsed between the first hit of your spike to the last, not the total time spent casting or whatever else rubbish you can think of.

But then again Surge isn't very good except for misdirection; I guess it's just an example though.

This has gone on far too long though. Yeah surge and burn do damage and energy denial; they still suck horribly at both though. You can have one R/Me for energy denial and one Ranger or Warrior for damage and you will outdamage and outenergy deny a two mesmer pair with burn/surge as a focus no matter what else their skills are.

This isn't some brilliant combo that has been overlooked. It's not like Fiannas fear me build, it's not like kors buff-stacked warrior build. It's just inefficient and subpar.

arredondo · Jul 24, 2005, 10:28 PM // 22:28

I must say, focus swapping can be "mastered" with practice. I do it all the time in every match. You just have to know when the game will let you do it, but it can work consistently if you wish.

ICURADik · Jul 24, 2005, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

Cyan is right.

Air spike is like this.

Cast Surge, cast Orb right away, cast Chain Lightning. Orb hits within a quarter second of surge and chain lightning hits within the next 3 seconds. In terms of spike you're doing your 300+ dmg...in about 3 seconds. In terms of spike damage it's the time elapsed between the first hit of your spike to the last, not the total time spent casting or whatever else rubbish you can think of.

But then again Surge isn't very good except for misdirection; I guess it's just an example though.

This has gone on far too long though. Yeah surge and burn do damage and energy denial; they still suck horribly at both though. You can have one R/Me for energy denial and one Ranger or Warrior for damage and you will outdamage and outenergy deny a two mesmer pair with burn/surge as a focus no matter what else their skills are.

This isn't some brilliant combo that has been overlooked. It's not like Fiannas fear me build, it's not like kors buff-stacked warrior build. It's just inefficient and subpar.

Tying to use air to spike a team running Winter with Mantra of Frost or ward against elements, or fertile season is inefficient and subpar. Having a mediocre skill with 0 VIABLE counters may be be inefficient, but it will always be effective.

Zeru · Jul 24, 2005, 11:44 PM // 23:44

So basically you've realized it sucks, good. Then we can stop wasting everyone's time.

arredondo · Jul 25, 2005, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Yes, we realize that every build sucks since they all have counters. By playing the game we're wasting everyone's time. Unless someone has some unstoppable build I haven't seen yet?

De Luci · Jul 25, 2005, 02:47 PM // 14:47

If all 8 mesmers use Arcane echo then Energy surge

THink about that since all rangers r stuck together !!!!

Ensign · Jul 25, 2005, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

Cast Surge, cast Orb right away, cast Chain Lightning.

That's the bad version of air spike. It's what you run in arena when you have to try and solo kill something, but you don't want to touch that ever in 8v8.

Good Air Gank is a Rend Enchantments or Nature's Renewal, followed immediately by four copies of Chain Lightning on the same Monk. That'll kill one caster with a bunch of splash damage. Fill in with coordinated Orbs/Strikes while Chain recharges, then repeat on another target.

Lightning Surge doesn't belong at all.

Back on the subject of Mesmers, Energy Surge is actually mildly interesting because the AoE is great - the same as a Ward. People don't even need to bunch up for that skill to deal a bunch of damage. It's not a great nuke, but it is a nuke and if you're a PvE Mesmer you have to take what you can get. Energy Burn on the other hand is filler, a poor single target nuke, that should only get run under extreme circumstances (PANK), and Mind Wrack is junk that I'd only even think about in arena where you have to find a way to kill somehow.

Peace,
-CxE