Curse

Bazooka · Jul 21, 2005, 02:10 PM // 14:10

This is only a slow/endurance/patience build IF the opposing team has a Ranger. You would be surprised how fast stacked hexes/conditions can kill.

If the opposing ranger has time to put down a nature's renewal before the assigned interuptor can get in range of him, then the team has to interupt their assigned target/slow cast hexes/chaos storm the spirit. Once the spiritist is "locked down" its open season on everyone else on his team as the hexes go unimpeded

The key to this team would be the guy assigned to the opposing spiritist(s)
All other types of opponents "should" be interrupted/killed before they get to do anything slower than 1 second.

Thanks for the interesting theorycraft and discussion. I find it amusing how so many tactics in Guildwars are similiar to zone or man defense in basketball

Granamyr · Jul 21, 2005, 04:49 PM // 16:49

As noted above, if Nature's Renewal does somehow make it through, it's not the end of the world. Remember, these are fast casters....I'd imagine a spirit could be brought down in under 7 seconds. Again, teams that depend on Nature's Renewal are devastated without it. This is easy to negate if you know what your enemy is going to do. This is a luxury your opponent doesn't have.....no one knows what a mesmer is going to do except screw with your plan.

On the mass coordination issue.....I can't really say either way since I don't have a team to implement this with. Nevertheless, I still stand by my thought that each role functions semi-independently.

3 Me/Ne Hex stackers
1 Me/Ne Debuffer
2 Me/Mo Healers
1 Me/Wa IW Build
1 Me/Ra Interrupt/Spirit Killer/Rez bot

Of this sample, the only coordination that needs to happen is maybe among the 3 stackers. You know as well I do how fast one mesmer can stack hexes but coordination always helps. Of the other roles I've listed, I see them all as sweepers. I'd like to see the IW character to be protecting the healers but even he has free range to attack at will because he can take anyone one on one. My debuffer just scrolls through the targets removing enchants.

Simple fact is once the monks are down, the match is won and mesmers are best at taking out monks. I'd be tempted to make my healers Mo/Me and make them signet healers so as to avoid enemy mesmers. Mesmers have the benefit of fully functional defensive skills in the Inspiration line that don't require attribute points to be effective.

Name a build that has the ability to adapt to a situation better than all mesmers? Spirit builds do seem to be the strongest right now but they are extremely dependent on Nature's Renewal.....it's an Achilles heel.

theclam · Jul 21, 2005, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nature's Renewal

Create a level 1-8 Spirit. For creatures within range, all "Enchantments" and "Hexes" are removed. For 30-126 seconds, Enchantments and Hexes take twice as long to cast. This Spirit dies after 30-126 seconds.

It's not just that it takes longer to cast Hexes. It's that every time Nature's Renewal is put down, all Hexes go away. Like Darc.Syde said, if one gets dropped every 10 seconds, then you're in trouble.

Darc.Syde · Jul 21, 2005, 05:34 PM // 17:34

ive been trying a counter to spirit spam rangers in pugs, i do this becuase mst of the time, my guild is innactive.

since most spirit spam builds run a ranger built to spam it rather than spread it around x rangers on the team. that spirit spamming ranger can be shutdown.

blackout and signet of humility should work. obviously, on a caster, it will be focussed, so concentrated healing will be called for.

EmperorTippy · Jul 21, 2005, 06:50 PM // 18:50

I'll go test this once some friends/guildes get on later tonight. It seems like it would work as for Natures Renewal we will just have to try out a couple different things. Locking down the ranger placing it is prolly the best bet.

antialias02 · Jul 21, 2005, 08:20 PM // 20:20

A team made up of half Me/?? and the other half ??/Me might be able to do enough damage, maybe.

But a team full of main-prof. mesmers alone would never be able to do enough damage to win, I think.

And I disagree with the idea that mesmers are just anti-casters. A mesmer has a number of skills to all but shut down warriors - or at least severely irritate them, if nothing else.

Aernok · Jul 21, 2005, 08:22 PM // 20:22

I'd just like to see an all mesmer team with energy surge go up against a team gathered on the altar.

4 mesmers pick one monk 4 mesmers pick another monk. All energy surge at once. 2 monks go down to about 5-10 energy left, and their whole team takes 570 dmg.

Talk about screwed, i've never had a character with more than 570 hp so their whole group should be dead instantly unless the warriors get lucky and survive.

Edit: Also combine arcane echo or w/e to reuse the skill for another way. I'm so tempted to try this out.

Quote:

But a team full of main-prof. mesmers alone would never be able to do enough damage to win, I think.

Oh no, mesmers can put out the dmg necessary. Do what I said above, then if any are still alive you have some power spikes (w/e one takes health away) and some conjure phantasm to finish off the job.

Excer · Jul 21, 2005, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by antialias02

A team made up of half Me/?? and the other half ??/Me might be able to do enough damage, maybe.

But a team full of main-prof. mesmers alone would never be able to do enough damage to win, I think.

definately not true. the domination line has some really high-dmg quick spikes. and of course, there are those weird me/e builds that use fast casting to spam orbs and of course the underrated IW builds

Sunrazor · Jul 21, 2005, 08:29 PM // 20:29

For a crazy way to beat this, eight W/Me, all equipped with Hex Breaker and Shatter Hex. Two use swords, four use axes, two use hammers. The hexes either can’t hit or get removed almost immediately, hammers prevent running, swords cause bleeding for DOT, axes provide heavy damage. Alternatively, replace the sword warriors with R/Me and use ranger conditions.

Iraqalypse Now · Jul 21, 2005, 08:36 PM // 20:36

The very crazy way to beat groups is to have 8 war/me with echo [E] and blackout.... noone has skills for 30ish seconds except for enough of a window to cast a sprint of a snare for the wars between blackouts...

Even if it doesn't work, it would be really, really, really funny

Galapas · Jul 21, 2005, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Well i am fairly new to the game...just got it a week ago but i was doing some arena in Yaks Bend (lvl 10 me/mo here) and we had two me/mo dominations mesmers btw in our team we won like 5 in a row and were rocking...

then we came face to face with 3 mesmers and a warrior/mesmer....was crazy they shut us down real quick...it was a PuG and even then the team with more mesmers won even though our group had been together for 5 rounds and should have had the advantage...i have to do GvG or the high end arenas with 8 ppl but so far from what i have seen it would be great to have lots of mesmers in a group

cheers,
Galapas

Yabba · Jul 21, 2005, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aernok

I'd just like to see an all mesmer team with energy surge go up against a team gathered on the altar.

4 mesmers pick one monk 4 mesmers pick another monk. All energy surge at once. 2 monks go down to about 5-10 energy left, and their whole team takes 570 dmg.

Talk about screwed, i've never had a character with more than 570 hp so their whole group should be dead instantly unless the warriors get lucky and survive.

Edit: Also combine arcane echo or w/e to reuse the skill for another way. I'm so tempted to try this out.

Oh no, mesmers can put out the dmg necessary. Do what I said above, then if any are still alive you have some power spikes (w/e one takes health away) and some conjure phantasm to finish off the job.

that was how i played a while ago my mesmer when i was thinking about making a mesmer spike dmg team

i did this because i was so fed up of people saying that mesmers can´t do dmg.
i made him later ele/mesmer though to have some more energy. dmg went a bit down but i was able to cast more often wihtout using inspiration skills to fill my mana up again and i used earth magic too for an occasional finishing shot with obsidian flame.

and don´t forget energy burn for dmg too.

a domination dmg mesmer team would not only kill most of one team with one spike but burn the mana of all survivors as well.

(2* energy surge =-22 energy, 1* energy burn another -11 energy and everytime 88 direct health dmg)

4 mesmers use 1st energy surge on target 1, while the 4 others do it on target 2 .
if there are survivors then the 2nd wave of energy surge should kill them.
if not, then energy burn them and if they don´t have energy kill with wands

(or use ele as 2nd and do a nice clean single target obsidian flame spike to finish off whatever is alive)
or go illusion secondary and dot/hex the rest of live out of them.

and for defense perhaps one mesmer could be ranger secondary and use winter and all mesmers use mantra of frost againts elemental dmg.
and distortion against phys attacks if you go illusion as 2nd mesmer line (i don´t remember though if distortion helps against arrows or only melee attacks)

i really wanted to try this out but all were crazy about chain lightning and my guild disbanded before i could get them to make mesmers

Saria Nightblade · Jul 21, 2005, 11:05 PM // 23:05

For the record, there's sort of a post about this already... http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=33647

I've done a lot of thinking about the energy surge spike team and I have a lot of good ideas about how to coordinate and counter things like ranger teams or warrior teams too.

Mercury Angel · Jul 21, 2005, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Domination linked damaging skills-
@ 16 domination
Backfire [147 damage per spell cast]
Chaos Storm [15 AoE damage per second]
Cry of Frustration [46 AoE damage interrupt]
Empathy [21 seconds, 31 damage per attack]
Energy Burn [10 energy loss - 8 damage per energy]
Energy Surge{E} {E} [10 energy loss - 8 AoE damage per energy]
Hex Breaker [49 damage to hex caster]
Mind Wrack [95 damage if energy hits 0]
Power Spike [108 damage interrupt]
Shatter Delusions [79 damage if a hex is removed]
Shatter Enchantment [106 damage if an enchantment is removed]
Shatter Hex [147 PbAoE damage if a hex on an ally is removed]
Wastrel's Worry [68 damage after 3 seconds if target does not use a skill]

Many of the above skills are comparable in damage to those elementalists have, with the bonus of ignoring defence. Many of them are also conditional, however. If the target just stands there and does nothing, only 6 of the above skills could even do anything at all [Chaos Storm, Energy Burn, Energy Surge, Mind Wrack, Shatter Delusions, and Wastrel's Worry]

Illusion linked damaging skills-
@ 16 Illusion
Clumsiness [98 damage if target attacks]
Conjure Phantasm [15 seconds- 5 degeneration]
Crippling Anguish {E} [21 seconds- 3 degeneration]
Fragility [36 damage every time a condition is inflicted or removed]
Illusionary Weaponry [42 damage per melee attack]
Ineptitude [87 damage if target attacks]
Migraine {E} [21 seconds- 3 degeneration]
Phantom Pain [10 seconds- 3 degeneration + Deep Wound for 21 seconds]

Illusion damage is primarily degeneration, of which 50% of the skills inflict. Clumisiness and Ineptitude hurt anyone that attacks hard, but only have one use per a long recharge time. They're particularly effective at causing damage with multiple users, as seen in The Ranger's Path.
Once again, only 6 unconditional damaging skills.

Inspiration damaging skills -
None
---
The main benefit a mesmer has over other professions is that it has a wide repertoire of damage ignoring skills. Elementalists have just 2 such skills, and only Necromancer and Monks have anywhere near the amount of them.
In addition to ignoring defence, they also tend to have additional effects, such as enchantment or energy removal.
This means- There's no such thing as squishy targets to a team of mesmers. Whoever you focus on, the damage will be the same (energy burning a warrior wouldn't be nearly as effective due to their limited pool, but you get the point). If they stick up enchantments that make them invulnerable or highly resilient temporarily, switch targets and smash them.

There's a similar build that a guild tested involving Obsidian Flame for defence ignoring damage. [They had a really nice looking newsletter, not sure where their website was.] In any case, they claimed it was pretty succesful, once they got coordinating the flame spell down. [118 damage at 16 earth, 130 at 18. Prior to when Protective Spirit became more popular, I'd believe them.]

I think the biggest advantage a full team of mesmer the same that a team full of air spikers or spirit spammers has-
Repetition and versatility makes them hard to shut down.

So hexes are removed frequently by nature's renewal?
Phantasm and Phantom don't last that long anyway, Wastrel's Worry casts rapidly and ends quickly as well.
Aside from that, interrupts and one-time spells are unaffected entirely.
Your target has been made temporarily invulnerable? Big whoop. Mesmer damage ignores defence anyway. Just switch and beat down someone else.
One mesmer is being shut down? Ah well, a pity, but you've got many more in the team to pick up the slack.

Edit-
By the way, anyone remember The Ranger's path?
Now there was an annoying quest for those unprepared, and the only skills those storm kin had were Power Drain, Clumsiness, and Conjure Phantasm. (Possibly another I can't think of at the moment.)
Tack on 5 more skills including those from a second profession(just for the sake of example) and add the competence of a human mesmer (subtract the lightning reflexes that enabled them to interrupt .75 second cast spells and faster though), and you can imagine how many teams might easily fall to an 8 mesmer team.

Also, any me/mo's with a decent amount of fast casting could resurrect pretty quickly, all things considered. (Even at 16 fast casting, casting times are still just over half of what they would be).

Aernok · Jul 22, 2005, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saria Nightblade

For the record, there's sort of a post about this already... http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=33647

I've done a lot of thinking about the energy surge spike team and I have a lot of good ideas about how to coordinate and counter things like ranger teams or warrior teams too.

That would be where I got the idea from.

Rajamic · Jul 22, 2005, 05:15 AM // 05:15

A heavy Warrior & Ranger team, even without Nature's Renewal would be a problem. A Mesmer team would typically go really heavily on the mage shutdown, and probably would not bring enough of Spirit Shackles/Sympathetic Visage/Soothing Images to stop a team with a large number of non-mages from tearing them apart.

shad0w2468 · Jul 22, 2005, 05:29 AM // 05:29

energy denial + mind wrack + wastrels can easily kill any character.. dont say a mesmer cant kill and shutdown at the same time

also.. backfire then wastrels? with a full mesmer team.. if they even go to remove anything u can just stop them.. let alone u can drain all of their energy so they cant even attempt to remove it if they wanted to

but i see an all ranger team beating an all mesmer team..

Ilya Khan · Jul 22, 2005, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Ok - All Mesmers interested in such a team, send me a private message. I myself am a Me/N capable of Spiking, debuffing, energy denial - I have masks with sup runes in Illusion, Domination, and Fast Casting (I don't know why I have that last one...I used to be a Me/Mo and monk) along with a Superior inspiration on my boots. If ANY >PRIMARY< Mesmer would like to join me, feel free. Just send me a private message and we can try this :P.

Also, for wariors, use Arcane echo + Clumsiness (at level 16 illusion, it does 97 damage and interupts i beleive) and then after clumsiness, use ineptitude (should do 80 i beleive), and then use clumsiness again (another 100) - Throw in wastrels worry and some Soul Barbs and you have yourself a quick way to get rid of warriors.

The only difficulty I have encountered is whenever it is me versus another Mesmer. Other than that, a Mesmer has all the skills it would need to take on any other proffesion.

Ok, enough of my rant. If ANY Mesmer would like to join me in an all Mesmer team (I will me/mo monk if needed), then just send me a private message.

Kaylee Ann · Jul 22, 2005, 05:57 AM // 05:57

A ranger team will absolutely crush this build, but good luck...

EmperorTippy · Jul 22, 2005, 06:10 AM // 06:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaylee Ann

A ranger team will absolutely crush this build, but good luck...

Slightly wrong. I tried it about 2 hours ago and my team won HoH twice before guildes and friends had to leave. Only problems were with the previouly stated Natures Renewal and spirit spammers. It took us 2 trys but on the third one we managed to make a build that could stop NR (interupts on the users mostly) and could do some respectable damage. HoH was by far the easyiest 2 matches (let another team take the alter and when another team came to fight them right at the start use energy sure on the high energy targets. the second team had a pretty easy time cept we energy surged them once it recharged and finished them off with it) An effictive counter to this build will prolly come out within a week or 2 but it works ATM if you have a good team and can coordinate well.