Curse

Stuntastic · Aug 10, 2005, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by -z|o-

The only effective counter to spirit builds atm is GANKING (talking about altar maps)

Did you forget to take your ADHD medicine or are you dyslexic. Either way you payed no attention to my multiple VALID counters to spirits spamming.

Tuna · Aug 10, 2005, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuntastic

If you are a good mesmer you should anticipate what skills the player will use and in what order according to class and what skills you watch them use.

I'll bite. So your super mesmer diversions Oath Shot. A few things will immediatley happen:
1. the ranger will slap himself for being in range of the mesmer
2. the ranger will run out of range of the mesmer
3. the ranger will cast is fully refreshed spirit(s)
4. ranger will plunk one of your forward warriors with oathshot
5. more spammage

Judging from your responces the only way to defeat spirit spam is to have a highly skilled mesmer use diversion. Good thing 1/8th of the people who play GW are highly skilled mesmers. How about you stop puffing yourself up and make a counter that real people can use.

-z|o- · Aug 10, 2005, 08:15 AM // 08:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

I don't know about you but I look at my enchant/hex bar before I use major skills like oath shot... GJ, you succesfully kept them from spamming for SIX SECONDS!!!!1 WOOOO!@!@!!!111 Actually, a crayon would be nice, can you use red pls?

Not even 6 seconds. Just use another skill then Oath Shot to recharge everything.

Golradiar [NOOB] · Aug 10, 2005, 08:15 AM // 08:15

zo, I don't know everyone in sB, but I doubt sigils p s t and the best sB players, would have any trouble beating a spirit team 1v1. I know we haven't, and sB is a very experienced guild.

I'll agree that spirit spamming on altar matches can sometimes be more difficult to counter, because they don't both trying to kill anything, just focusing completely on defense. However, this would be a problem with the way altar matches work, not a problem with spirits.

Tuna · Aug 10, 2005, 08:17 AM // 08:17

Is this the part where I point out that several sB people used to be in the so called crappy DrkH? :/

Golradiar [NOOB] · Aug 10, 2005, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Tuna, you say make a counter a common team can use? Well, there isn't a counter a common team can use effectively, nor is there a counter a common team can use effectively against any competitive build run by a good guild.

It's not anyone's fault, it's just the fact that a guild group who plays together for hours everyday, will 90% of the time beat any collection of players you find.

You can find the same thing in games like counterstrike, or any other fps for that matter. Individual players are good, but if a team is highly coordinated and knows eachother well enough (warmachine for example), they simply won't be beaten by a normal group.

Stuntastic · Aug 10, 2005, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

I'll bite. So your super mesmer diversions Oath Shot. A few things will immediatley happen:
1. the ranger will slap himself for being in range of the mesmer
2. the ranger will run out of range of the mesmer
3. the ranger will cast is fully refreshed spirit(s)
4. ranger will plunk one of your forward warriors with oathshot
5. more spammage

1.If you have played a spirit spammer you would know if a mesmer comes with you're range you dont simply run away at the thought of being diversioned you focus on keeping spirits up because the mesmer has legs of his own and can follow you if he wants to.
2.meh...
3.You admit the oath shot can be diversioned then you talk about fully refreshed spirits a mere 10 seconds later.
4.DIVERSIONED AGAIN IF THE MESMER IS GOOD
5.NO SPAMMAGE

edit: Not to mention divesion wont be the only thing the mesmer is doing. The mesmer will be draining and/or signet of humilitying adding up for a complete shut down

Golradiar [NOOB] · Aug 10, 2005, 08:23 AM // 08:23

Tuna, I said this before as well, back in betas, guilds like Drkh were the best, and I'm sure some of your members play now in top guilds. What I said is experience from back then isn't good enough to argue the problems of today.
The people who went to sB do have the experience I speak of, so maybe we could get a few of them on here and see what they have to say, but most of all I'd like to hear from the guild leaders of the top 20 guilds of today. Their opinions are going to be the most informed as they have played against the best teams in the game (now), and so know what balance issues there are.

Tuna · Aug 10, 2005, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golradiar [NOOB]

Tuna, you say make a counter a common team can use? Well, there isn't a counter a common team can use effectively

No, there's not.

Quote:

nor is there a counter a common team can use effectively against any competitive build run by a good guild.

No crap a good team will beat a bad team. But a medicore team should be able to effectively counter a mediocre spirit spam team.

Quote:

(warmachine for example)

I was under the impression that there were over 100 people in war machine... I don't know how well you can get to know that many people. However, I'm also not qualified to talk about the internal workings of their guild.

edit:

Quote:

1.If you have played a spirit spammer you would know if a mesmer comes with you're range you dont simply run away at the thought of being diversioned you focus on keeping spirits up because the mesmer has legs of his own and can follow you if he wants to.
2.meh...
3.You admit the oath shot can be diversioned then you talk about fully refreshed spirits a mere 10 seconds later.
4.DIVERSIONED AGAIN IF THE MESMER IS GOOD
5.NO SPAMMAGE

1. If the mesmer wants to run behind the enemies lines that their problem not mine
2. meh doesn't make much of a rebutall to a point that you ignore in 3-5
3. I'm not going to make a time layout for you, mainly as this varies greatly between situations, but I think you know what I mean. Little real time is wasted by getting rid of OS for ~40sec
4. Diversion the ranger thats out of range? Ah yes, the magical powers again.
5. YES SPAMMAGE

I'm pretty sure they quit GW due to points 1 and 2 I mentioned somewhere.

Stuntastic · Aug 10, 2005, 08:35 AM // 08:35

I said meh because numero uno handled both 1 and 2 and a mesmer wont just let the ranger run out of range when they are targeting it. Sorry I didn't have any red crayons.

Golradiar [NOOB] · Aug 10, 2005, 08:37 AM // 08:37

Warmachine quit GW? Since when? They are in the top 10 on the guild ladder and actively play. nO is also in the top 20 on the guild ladder. Maybe your reasons 1 and 2 just apply to the guilds we had a nice discussion about (pssst... beta guilds that no longer play). But that's beside the point, a guild who for a while (recently mind you) held rank 1 must be a good team.

As to mediocre builds beating mediocre spirit builds, I'm sure if you add up what Stuntastic and myself have said about the issue, these guilds can come up with a good response to spirit spam. But, I really don't know how mediocre groups work or how organized they are, so I can't really comment on them. Maybe they should just strive to be more coordinated and organized so they can use the counters.

Tuna · Aug 10, 2005, 08:39 AM // 08:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuntastic

I said meh because numero uno handled both 1 and 2 and a mesmer wont just let the ranger run out of range when they are targeting it. Sorry I didn't have any red crayons.

Whats the mesmer going to do about a running ranger? He can hardly run out of range of his monks or he's a sitting duck. I guess the entire team could rush forward but in my experience that doesn't work so well. I'm beginning to wonder how you guys got so high on the ladder. If you're really that good you have the absolute worst communication skills I've ever seen on a living being. I think my mute dog could come up with better reasons why spirit spam isn't overpowered.

edit:

Quote:

Warmachine quit GW? Since when? They are in the top 10 on the guild ladder and actively play. nO is also in the top 20 on the guild ladder. Maybe your reasons 1 and 2 just apply to the guilds we had a nice discussion about (pssst... beta guilds that no longer play). But that's beside the point, a guild who for a while (recently mind you) held rank 1 must be a good team.

Nono, not WM, the people who joined sB from drkh. I'm guilty of the aforementioned communication skills also

Quote:

As to mediocre builds beating mediocre spirit builds, I'm sure if you add up what Stuntastic and myself have said about the issue, these guilds can come up with a good response to spirit spam. But, I really don't know how mediocre groups work or how organized they are, so I can't really comment on them. Maybe they should just strive to be more coordinated and organized so they can use the counters.

Wouldn't you say that if something isn't counterable at most levels of skill it is overpowered? Isn't that what the deffinition of overpowered is? Everything else can be countered easily, why not spirit spam?

Stuntastic · Aug 10, 2005, 08:43 AM // 08:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

Whats the mesmer going to do about a running ranger? He can hardly run out of range of his monks or he's a sitting duck. I guess the entire team could rush forward but in my experience that doesn't work so well. I'm beginning to wonder how you guys got so high on the ladder. If you're really that good you have the absolute worst communication skills I've ever seen on a living being. I think my mute dog could come up with better reasons why spirit spam isn't overpowered.

Wow....Maybe you forgot all it takes is for the mesmer to tell the monks to move forward to accomadate his job. Those masterful communication skills you have must have missed out on about a thing called speaking.

Golradiar [NOOB] · Aug 10, 2005, 08:44 AM // 08:44

Worst communication skills? If a ranger starts to retreat, mesmer calls to team "we need to move forward a bit guys", team moves up to support the mesmer, and if the ranger continues to retreat, soon even if he does get a spirit layed, the spirit's radius won't effect the teams fighting.

Battlefield mobility and communication are extremely important, either our coordination is godly, or people are just careful about where they move without letting the rest of the team move.

-z|o- · Aug 10, 2005, 08:46 AM // 08:46

Well the only time when spirits become a problem is in altar maps and relic runs (due to blocking) exept for NR that is horribly broken but that is result of imbalance of buff/debuff. Other spirits on its own not a big deal but combination of spirits makes defense almost unbreachible within of 10 minute timeframe. From my experience interupting spirit spammers is not an effective tactic to kick somebody from HoH. Most of the time there will be 12-15 spirits by the time your team runs from spawn to altar, that is if you lucky enough not fight the 1v1. You could sure focus your whole build on interupting but that is simply a waste cause you will have little DPS output. The most effective tactic i find is energy denial monks and consistent DPS on GH. However, good monks can heal through energy denial when needed and than a lot depends on the 3rd team as well. And even if you kill GH you'll need to kill all the spirits on the altar that grow like mushrooms in the rain so you GH can actually get to the altar. And remember, ther is only 2 minute window to capturethe altar. Most of the teams can interupt your GH for quite a long time. All this comes down to that you would need to have atleast one team down to actually claim the altar and gl&hf doing it with firtile+simbiosis+qz.

So ganking is really the only valid strategy against a decent spirit spamming team.

Tuna · Aug 10, 2005, 08:47 AM // 08:47

The range on spirits is long, but I'm sure you realize this. That means the ranger can run just about as far away as he wants and still be effective. In many cases he can plop himself down in rather inaccesable locations. If you push forward the ranger just goes back farther. The only time this stops is when you hit the guild lord in which case the rangers strategy only gets better. Rushing the ranger doesn't work. Period.

Stuntastic · Aug 10, 2005, 08:51 AM // 08:51

Well if we are talking about GvG then I would be happy about the enemy team retreating because their spirit spammer is targeted. That gives us time to control the morale therefore gaining the upperhand in the match.

Aug 10, 2005, 08:52 AM // 08:52

Tuna they are noobs. Just leave them alone.

Actually I was playing SC all day today. Had a lot of fun, thx for the obvious suggestion.

Nightwish · Aug 10, 2005, 08:52 AM // 08:52

It seems that the counters suggested in this thread are provided by the spirit spammers themselves, is it not?

Not sure bout you guys but most of the time I would find it hard to believe suggestions given by opponents themselves :P

This is just a basic reaction from me but there are sporty people/players out there and there might be sincere counter strategies in this thread :P

Please note:
The debate here is not about whether spirit spamming can be countered or not BUT how difficult it is to be countered!

Thats why the term OVERPOWERED and not INVINCIBLE is used for spirit spamming.

Aug 10, 2005, 08:54 AM // 08:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightwish

Thats why the term OVERPOWERED and not INVINCIBLE is used for spirit spamming.

I think this guy actually got it. Now I'm waiting for the other 2 guys who are unknowns among any guild to get it.