Curse

Stuntastic · Aug 10, 2005, 05:31 AM // 05:31

Blackace all you did was say how arrows and other forms of ATTACKS were ineffecitve. If you're running a counter to spirits you need to be able to kill them quickly. If you can't then gale won't do much for you, but then again you're build must be the problem.

Tuna · Aug 10, 2005, 05:34 AM // 05:34

Gw Guru skill listing says there are about 147 skills that are either enchantments or hexes. 147/450 ~ 32.66% Damn am I a good guesser

Maltare · Aug 10, 2005, 05:42 AM // 05:42

And all of those enchantments and hexes are useless because of NR? I bet to differ. A lot of them have a duration that would easily last inbetween renewal spamming thus not reducing the effectiveness and also not making it inneffective. Any enchantment lasting 10 seconds or less is a good example of this. Now if you want to talk casting speed. A lot of enchantments have a casting speed of 1/4 anyway, so then you're talking about 1/2. Doesnt hurt very much. Now, if you would also like to in turn talk about hexes. A mesmer can cut back cast time with fast casting, not back to original in most cases, but it cuts it back siginificantly.

When it comes to cast times, Necromancer hexes with 2+ cast times, or Monk enchants with 2+ cast times unless mesmer primary, are the only ones completely left high and dry.

Oh, you also didn't let me throw out all the ones that are trash to begin with

Tuna · Aug 10, 2005, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maltare

And all of those enchantments and hexes are useless because of NR? I bet to differ. A lot of them have a duration that would easily last inbetween renewal spamming thus not reducing the effectiveness and also not making it inneffective. Any enchantment lasting 10 seconds or less is a good example of this. Now if you want to talk casting speed. A lot of enchantments have a casting speed of 1/4 anyway, so then you're talking about 1/2. Doesnt hurt very much. Now, if you would also like to in turn talk about hexes. A mesmer can cut back cast time with fast casting, not back to original in most cases, but it cuts it back siginificantly.

True, some monk skills such as reversal of fortune can hardly be counted, but even if you pulled out the ones that are only midly affected you still will have 28-30%

Quote:

Oh, you also didn't let me throw out all the ones that are trash to begin with

Trash is going to have to be subjective in this case. But I'll give you a few % for it anyway. This puts us at about 25% of skills that would actually be used are now garbage. How you can say this isn't overpowered with a straight face is beyond me.

Maltare · Aug 10, 2005, 05:53 AM // 05:53

You havn't really proven 25% to me yet. I almost guarentee a lot of the skills you're saying are now useless I would have to dissagree. And when I say trash, I mean, they're not used by 75% of players anyway, and are only usefull in very odd circumstances if you purposly go out of your way to make them usefull.

Tuna · Aug 10, 2005, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maltare

You havn't really proven 25% to me yet. I almost guarentee a lot of the skills you're saying are now useless I would have to dissagree. And when I say trash, I mean, they're not used by 75% of players anyway, and are only usefull in very odd circumstances if you purposly go out of your way to make them usefull.

Not to be rude, but 75% of the players are also trash. (ok, slight exageration) Going out of your way does not make a skill bad. However, if if starts with R and ends with ust it automatically goes to the garbage heap.

Stuntastic · Aug 10, 2005, 06:09 AM // 06:09

If you really want to use those hexes and enchantments that are mostly useless anyway just have a mesmer use blackout on the spammer...with QZ up you can continually use it...all u have to do then is kill all remaining natures and you are in business.

Tuna · Aug 10, 2005, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuntastic

If you really want to use those hexes and enchantments that are mostly useless anyway just have a mesmer use blackout on the spammer...with QZ up you can continually use it...all u have to do then is kill all remaining natures and you are in business.

And hope 2 people aren't casting NR? I don't think I would consider blackout a counter anyway. Kinda misses the definition of a counter.

Stuntastic · Aug 10, 2005, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

And hope 2 people aren't casting NR? I don't think I would consider blackout a counter anyway. Kinda misses the definition of a counter.

Well if two people are running NR the second is most likely a ranger secondary carrying it as back up meaning it comes down once every thirty seconds. This spirit can be easily killed with no fertile up from the spirit spammer being shutdown.

Aug 10, 2005, 06:23 AM // 06:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuntastic

Blackace all you did was say how arrows and other forms of ATTACKS were ineffecitve. If you're running a counter to spirits you need to be able to kill them quickly. If you can't then gale won't do much for you, but then again you're build must be the problem.

Which wont happen due to Fertile Season. Hi, I give +24 armor and a bunch of HP to everything. Cheers!

It takes time to kill spirits, time that a good spirit spamming team loves to have since your killing spirits and they put them up faster than you can kill them.

Maltare please play PvP before posting. Thx.

Stuntastic · Aug 10, 2005, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

Which wont happen due to Fertile Season. Hi, I give +24 armor and a bunch of HP to everything. Cheers!

Wow, you're the one that needs to play some PvP. It only adds 15 armor. Not to mention all of my suggestions leave the spirit spammer shutdown meaning killing spirits is easy since they are no longer being created (except a few by a few ranger secondaries).

Aug 10, 2005, 06:56 AM // 06:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuntastic

Wow, you're the one that needs to play some PvP. It only adds 15 armor. Not to mention all of my suggestions leave the spirit spammer shutdown meaning killing spirits is easy since they are no longer being created (except a few by a few ranger secondaries).

Meh outdated skill description. It's still going to give the spirits damage reduction vs all.

Your only suggestion that's even close to shutting down a SS is Blackout. Butthat requires continued pursuit and constant Blackouts which isn't easy to do vs non-brain dead teams that will just dp you out, snare you, or let the Ranger and his speed buff own you. You sound like you havent played PvP because all your suggestions are catered to the most noob teams and vs decent players it just wont cut it.

Maltare · Aug 10, 2005, 06:58 AM // 06:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

Not to be rude, but 75% of the players are also trash. (ok, slight exageration) Going out of your way does not make a skill bad. However, if if starts with R and ends with ust it automatically goes to the garbage heap.

Hahahaha

For some reason this was really funny.(I think partially cause I'm tired)

Maltare · Aug 10, 2005, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

Meh outdated skill description. It's still going to give the spirits damage reduction vs all.

Your only suggestion that's even close to shutting down a SS is Blackout. Butthat requires continued pursuit and constant Blackouts which isn't easy to do vs non-brain dead teams that will just dp you out, snare you, or let the Ranger and his speed buff own you. You sound like you havent played PvP because all your suggestions are catered to the most noob teams and vs decent players it just wont cut it.

Blackout warrior with Wild blow, sprint, distracting blow is the best spirit disruption. Unforunantly vs other types of groups it only has so much going for it.

Golradiar [NOOB] · Aug 10, 2005, 07:07 AM // 07:07

Looks like another person with very little in game experience against good spirit teams but loads of theories has come to join the fun.

You can argue all you want Tuna and Blackace, but in the end, spirits will only be overpowered when they can't be beat or are too difficult to counter, despite what you say, this is not the case. You talk about NR making 30% of the skills in game useless, this is completely wrong. Today, No Silence fought against Eternum Pariah (top 10 guild), and we used nature's renewal against them to remove their aegis so we could drop monks. Now you may say, "aegis is an enchantment and NR makes it useless." Please tell that to EP, because they were smart enough to come up with the very complicated idea, that maybe we should wait for NR to drop, then throw up aegis again right when it does drop.

Both of you have many times discredited yourselves by saying very valid counters are not possible. Do you think an incendiary ranger will start casting incendiary right when he sees someone using a spirit? Only if the ranger is horrible; a good one will keep it up all the time. Does whirling defense stop this? To a degree, yes, but this makes the spammer easier to shut down via hexes as you can't bring hex breaker.

Blackace, you might talk to your little buddy Vanquisher from the Guild Hall forums about how the warrior skill Wild Blow has NO practical use in game and is completely useless (not his exact words, but his meaning). This happens to be interesting because your proposed counter to interrupts would be a stance, which is exactly what Wild Blow removes. I'll trust you're smart enough to figure out how you would run this in a build to effectively counter a spirit spammer. If neither of you are even able to come up with that, after I've told you all the skills needed for it, then I sincerely pity you, but completely understand why neither of your guilds are ranked high on the ladder anymore, and also why you both complain about spirit spam.

Those who complain about the spam are those who aren't able to come up with counters. Both of your replies are proof of this, you can't possibly fathom a situation in which a spirit spam team can be defeated without using 2 skills that I've never needed to use against a spirit spam team (leech sig, and cry of frustration). Come back when you accept the fact that perhaps you lost against these teams for a reason, and that reason is not that spirits are overpowered *hint*.

One thing that saddens me greatly is, after reading about the successes of iQ in beta weekends, their sigil giveaway, and many insightful posts by them: both you and vanquisher fail to grasp many facets of basic team building counter strategy that should be common knowledge among good guilds, you two sound like the common people Tuna refers to as 75% of the player population (I'd guess the percentage is much greater than this). Maybe your guild has a few strategists and the rest just play their class (mine is the same way, as are most guilds I've seen), but if this is true, let those strategists come talk strategy, and the ones who don't "get" it, play the game.

I'm very sorry to post this in such a derogatory way, but the arrogance of beta guilds is a matter that I feel strongly about. Neither iQ or Drkh hold top spots on the guild ladder anymore, so don't be bragging about it or think that since the positions were once yours, you expect people to believe you could easily get them now. One american beta guild that I do respect is nO, they still hold a top 20 position, and I don't see their members talking on public forums as if they know more about the game than everyone else, just because "back in beta" they were good. They still are good, so if anyone should talk like that, they have more right to it than you.

It's funny because when anyone decides to stand up to the supposed "superiority" of beta guilds, they get flamed, or told that "the game is too messed up to play/guild ladder is messed up/HoH isn't fair." You had your time to rule the ladder, and in that time you were the best, but that time is passed. If you think you know so much about the game, and all the strategies in it, and are easily able to beat a current team holding a top spot, prove it. Stop standing behind claims that are months old, and prove your skills in the game now. Anyone that has an extremely good understanding of the game and it's nuances should be able to either form a new guild and lead it to the top of the ladder, or at minimum be part of one that is at the top. And anyone who's curious about the ranks of these guilds, today iQ is ranked 148, with Drkh coming in at 422.

Tuna, your guild might've fallen apart, but if it did and you're still a part of it, explain to me where you get the experience against top ranked guilds (before we get another month old screenshot, I'm talking recently) that your argument is based on.

To iQ, I have nothing against your guild, just the actions of one member in particular (vanquisher), and you, blackace, seemingly follow in his path of percieved superiority.

Aug 10, 2005, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maltare

Blackout warrior with Wild blow, sprint, distracting blow is the best spirit disruption. Unforunantly vs other types of groups it only has so much going for it.

I'd take Wild Blow, since it's the only answer to Stances in the game. Sadly how consistently can you knock out a Ranger Stance when the team is running staple anti-war skills that just happen to protect the Ranger?

Golriador if you dont even know anything about iQ I'd suggest you stop talking. We only played GvG starting like what, 2 weeks ago to test a build. iQ is one of the most well known guilds in the game and if you think we dont know what were talking about so be it. But you'll just be a talking asshat in a random forum.

Wait a sec. You're right because you fought a top 10 team on a ladder no one has cared about since release, and that died 2 months ago? rofl

-z|o- · Aug 10, 2005, 07:16 AM // 07:16

Or you could always run into a team with 2 Oath Shooters. In any case spirits are a BIGGER problem in HoH than anywhere else, especially on any altar or relic run maps.

In GvG spirits are not as effective as in HoH exept for NR.

Here is a good thread for people who think spirit spaming is fine in curent state http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...hlight=balance .. enlight yourselves.

As far as "some skills are a complete trash" argument goes .. 3 months ago i thought Shields Up was in that category .. times change.

Kaylee Ann · Aug 10, 2005, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by -z|o-

As far as "some skills are a complete trash" argument goes .. 3 months ago i thought Shields Up was in that category .. times change.

Charge ftw

Rey Lentless · Aug 10, 2005, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golradiar [NOOB]

So Rey Lentless, I'm the noob for thinking spirits aren't overpowered? All I can say to that is LOL, tell me what you have to back up the claim that I'm a noob? I hate to say this, but I sincerely doubt you've had as much experience in tombs, or GvG, as I have; or at least not enough to call me a noob.

I didn't call you a noob. I said you're suggesting anyone who doesn't think this game is perfectly balanced is.

Quote:

Calnaion, I wasn't suggesting anything should be nerfed; I merely said that people should not whine about a build when the real reason they lost was their lack of skill. Experienced teams shouldn't be punished for being good, that's like saying, "The Colts are overpowered, I think Peyton Manning needs a nerf; running those passing plays isn't fair for the people who refuse to run enough defensive backs." If you can't beat something, think up a build that can beat it, perfect it, and practice it with your players to get them more experienced at their roles.

You're confusing running spirits with being good. If you're a good team, then nerfing a particular strategy isn't going to hurt you is it? You're saying it isn't the build.. it's you and your team. So who cares what gets nerfed, you're still better right?

It's obvious you don't believe that to actually be true. So quit trying to tell people you're better than them. If you were, you wouldn't worry about where the nerf stick goes, you'd be relying on that superior teamwork to win you games.. not a FOTM that won't be there next month.

Stuntastic · Aug 10, 2005, 07:30 AM // 07:30

A pretty simple answer to spirit spamming is signet of humility. Just have a few players go Mesmer secondary and with QZ up you have a permanent Oath Shot shutdown at your fingertips.