Curse

arredondo · Aug 16, 2005, 09:42 PM // 21:42

You don't have to let it keep you from using other corpse Death skills if you plan properly, as clearly described above.

Kaleban · Aug 16, 2005, 10:01 PM // 22:01

By the way, the title of the post is one guy's opinion on the effect of PE in TOMBS, so its safe to say that a global nerf is definitely not what is needed. If PE works fine everywhere else, then what's needed, if anything, would be a change to Tombs. Simple logic really.

ICURADik · Aug 16, 2005, 10:18 PM // 22:18

If your using Blackout on the other necro. Then you better be using Putrid yourself. Bone minions are laughable with anything less than 10 of them.

Kaylee Ann · Aug 16, 2005, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

If your using Blackout on the other necro. Then you better be using Putrid yourself. Bone minions are laughable with anything less than 100 of them.

Fixed

Kaleban · Aug 16, 2005, 10:34 PM // 22:34

One thing I wonder about, given the prevalence of threads bashing classes or class combos in this and other boards, is why people feel the need to make claims such as this thread discusses?

Its as if, they're missing the whole point of Guild Wars. Here's a good example, remember the Korean team tactic of killing each other, and their pets, then raising a huge mass of Bone Minions prior to a fight? What's the counter? One single Necro skill: Verata's Aura. Makes all those enemy nasty undead yours, kills the enemy team, and you win rather quickly.

Now, if you chose not to bring Verata's Aura, you'd have to fight against 40 plus minions and their spellcasting masters, and that would suck. A Farming Monk build could also take them all out easily, if they all aggro the monk. But if you wanted to easily counter the enemy tactic, you brought an otherwise extremely situational skill with you just in case.

Its the same here. You don't like or want to bring a Necro? Fine. Your choice. If you have some grudge against Necros, that's your problem. But then you have to fight knowing the other team will bring a Necro, placing your team at a decided disadvantage.

This logic is akin to a general in war saying he'd rather not use air power because he thinks its cheap and doesn't like the noise, with the effect of handicapping his side from the start. It sounds ludicrous right? That's the same logic you guys are applying to PE. If you have a weapon, which in a situation is highly effective, and you CHOOSE not to bring it for any reason in said situation, then you're stupid. Plain and simple.

Aug 16, 2005, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Hi, I'm Healing Seed and the time it took you to raise all those minions+drop winnowing got owned. No need for Verata's Aura.

Scaphism · Aug 16, 2005, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Its the same here. You don't like or want to bring a Necro? Fine. Your choice. If you have some grudge against Necros, that's your problem. But then you have to fight knowing the other team will bring a Necro, placing your team at a decided disadvantage.

So you're telling us if we're not all running necromancers so we can counter this one skill that we're at a disadvantage?

Hi, welcome to page one. Next time, RTFA before you come in and tell us something we've already established. Thanks.

White Designs · Aug 16, 2005, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

By the way, the title of the post is one guy's opinion on the effect of PE in TOMBS, so its safe to say that a global nerf is definitely not what is needed. If PE works fine everywhere else, then what's needed, if anything, would be a change to Tombs. Simple logic really.

The facts you mention are true, but the conclusion, not necessarily. Fixing tombs is a possibility, but so is fixing Putrid so it doesn't dominate Tombs as much while keeping it viable in other forms of PvP. I never really discussed what I felt should be precisely done to the skill, I just made the post to inform and explain why something needs to be done.

Kaleban · Aug 17, 2005, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Its funny Scaphism, but even though you may accept it as true or fact, half the people in this thread keep arguing they shouldn't have to bring a Necro, that slots filled with a Necro are somehow "wasted" and that the class brings nothing else to the table but PE in a Tombs match, and that's just plain dumb. So while you may accept it as established, it sure doesn't seem that way does it?

And White Designs, how exactly would you fix PE? Already people have said how useless other corpse skills are, I highly doubt Necrotic Transversal willl replace PE in this one specific situation. And since minion AI can't really compete against an organized, intelligent team, you need huge numbers of minions to be any use, and then you enter into a competition of who can raise more minions and thus tip the balance just like PE does currently, only less quick and dramatic.

So you still end up with a Necro's job being corpse management/denial. So if not PE, something else will be used, most likely whatever's quickest and the same situation results. Maybe not as dramatic as a huge damaging spike to a clustered group, but whatever.

Also Scaphism, I take exception to the idea that a Necro isn't needed at all, since all classes are viable in team builds. Since much of this thread seems to be of the idea that including a Necro is a bad idea, I think that's really the heart of the matter. A Necro with a 0 Death Magic and PE can still perform in a defensive manner to keep the other team from blowing corpses, and have, say high Curses to hinder the other team, or whatever, the combinations are endless.

I just get sick of people who have no imagination whining about a strategy that they can't counter, when the damn solution is right in front of them. If everyone and their dog is bringing a Necro, then the solution is to pony up and do the same, period. If Scaphism is right and this has already been established, then why is the thread so damn long???

Kaleban · Aug 17, 2005, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scaphism

In an environment where your choices are "bring X, or bring its counter, or expect to lose to X" you lose out on choices. And make no mistake, despite your many good points, Wells, Animate spells, and even teams lose to Putrid Explosion. The fact that you can affect the person casting Putrid does nothing to change it's inherent power relative to the other corpse exploitation spells.

The bolded bit is important, its what GW is all about. At least right now anyways, there are highly popular strategies that everyone uses, and if you obstinately think you shouldn't have to "bring its counter" then why play the game?

Heck, the Mesmer class is the proof of my argument. ANet designs a class to counter everything, in a nice compact squishy package. If a team/guild/pug decides for some reason that Mesmers aren't worth bringing, and that a skill like Blackout is too cheap or powerful or easy (select target, spam Blackout, use Arcane Echo or something like Oath Shot to keep doing this), but the OTHER team brings one, then the team without one is probably screwed. That's a pretty poor reason to nerf Blackout or not bring a Mesmer, eh?

And you can apply the logic you guys are using in this thread to ANY class. Wards are too powerful, leave the elementalist behind, healing makes the matches last too long and is unfair, no Monks, etc., etc. You counter an enemy monk by bringing your own or disrupting, you counter an enemy mesmer by bringing your own or disrupting, etc. But when it comes to the Necro, all of a sudden its unconscionable to even think of having one in a group because that spot is a waste of 8 skills??? Yeah, right.

Zeru · Aug 17, 2005, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

I just get sick of people who have no imagination whining about a strategy that they can't counter, when the damn solution is right in front of them. If everyone and their dog is bringing a Necro, then the solution is to pony up and do the same, period. If Scaphism is right and this has already been established, then why is the thread so damn long???

I really don't think you understand what's being discussed here. As a matter of fact, it seems very few people who have posted in here understand what the problem is with putrid and the reason behind this topic. Figures though, it's a necro topic.

As for primary necros being weak or less useful, duh. It's common pvp knowledge that necros are the most limited out of any primary by far. They have their uses, but they are few and far between. If you disagree with this, go take a look here:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...hlight=necr o

Lots and lots of stupid posts there but also some quality ones that will teach you some more about why this is so.

Kaylee Ann · Aug 17, 2005, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

Hi, I'm Healing Seed and the time it took you to raise all those minions+drop winnowing got owned. No need for Verata's Aura.

Healing seed? What is that? Sig of Devotion pwnzors!!111one11noob

It amazes me that every counter anyone suggests to any of the current FoTMs either involves me bringing the same thing and using it better, or using Diversion. I still have yet to figure out how bringing NR counters NR, but that is for another thread. And diversion is such a great spell, that if you run into a mesmer in tombs all they do is spam your face with it. WOW, you guys have it all figured out!!!

Here is the 1337 secret for all you noobs that don't know to play mesmer or necro:

Diversion - Backfire - Res sig ----> Who cares what else the mesmer brings (could bring capture signets if you wanted), diversion OWNS. And omg, backfire does damage when someone casts.

Putrid - tainted flesh or energy drain - 6 disenchants - res sig ---> This necro will rape your face. Rend enchantment and putrid explosion are the only necro spells worth a sh*t. Tainted rules so no need for martyr. Screw it if your warriors get blinded, it will wear off soon anyways. OMG and if you don't bring tainted you can energy drain monks so they can't cast!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Designs

The facts you mention are true, but the conclusion, not necessarily. Fixing tombs is a possibility, but so is fixing Putrid so it doesn't dominate Tombs as much while keeping it viable in other forms of PvP. I never really discussed what I felt should be precisely done to the skill, I just made the post to inform and explain why something needs to be done.

Thats right, you didn't suggest jacksh*t. The only thing you have managed to do was come on here and constantly complain like everyone else, while not even providing one solid solution to the problem. You also somehow managed to blurt out some idiocy on how necros suck. Good job, you should be on the next Alpha team...

Kaylee Ann · Aug 17, 2005, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Since much of this thread seems to be of the idea that including a Necro is a bad idea, I think that's really the heart of the matter.

No, the heart of the matter is Putrid. The stuff about Necros and how they suck, or including them is a bad idea, is mindless non-sense that has been posted here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

As for primary necros being weak or less useful, duh.

Play us (hO) in GvG, and we will show you how 'weak and less usefull' they are.

Tuna · Aug 17, 2005, 01:13 AM // 01:13

I'm curious as to exactly how much your necro's wand does, as that exactly how usefull he will be under NR

Ubiquitous · Aug 17, 2005, 01:28 AM // 01:28

h0's necros are plenty useful, even with NR up.

Ubi

Kaylee Ann · Aug 17, 2005, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

I'm curious as to exactly how much your necro's wand does, as that exactly how usefull he will be under NR

And the mindless non-sense continues.

Kaleban · Aug 17, 2005, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

I really don't think you understand what's being discussed here. As a matter of fact, it seems very few people who have posted in here understand what the problem is with putrid and the reason behind this topic. Figures though, it's a necro topic.

Pray tell then, what is the problem? I can read, and have read White Designs assertions in his OP.

And here's the thing, PE is effective at corpse denial. Why do people use it? So that other teams cannot, right? If you get your PE in first, you've possibly done quite a bit of damage while denying the enemy team the same.

Now as to it taking no skill, I've noticed that the PE blast goes off based on proximity to the Necro, the closer the corpse, the higher "target priority" for the skill. This means the Necro needs to be mindful of his position in relation to where the corpse falls.

Its also dependent on a corpse, the major limiting factor. On a team with a few good heal/prot monks, this can be hard to acheive, so a Necro who relies on "mashing PE" as his ONLY saving grace is a waste.

Here:

Quote:

1.) it takes no skill to use it 2.) it renders lots of other nice skills useless and 3.) It forces every team to take a Necro when there is so much other room for variability otherwise.

1. Same could be said of many skills. How much skill does it take for an Elementalist to click Meteor Storm or Lightning Orb on a Target? Probably less, since its that character's primary concern, a Necro who sits around and waits for a corpse while doing nothing is indeed useless, but so is any other character who focuses on one sole, situational skill.

2. If you have read the last couple of pages, most tout that minion skills are useless, but have read that Well of Profane/Suffering are good. 1-4 health degen is crap, and any good monk/team can counter that. Profane seems awesome on paper, but since in the current metagame enchant/hex removal is so common, is it really that much better? So if the point is to deny the enemy corpses/cause damage to opposing team, none of these really work as well as they could.

3. This is just plain stupid! How many classes are there? 6. Figure in an 8-man "average" team, you have a Ranger, two Monks, two Eles, and a Mesmer. Two slots left. Fill both with the ubiquitous W/Mo? Lol. The nice thing about a Necro is that he can bring so many debuffs to the table, he can almost singlehandedly debuff the opposing team. Heck, in Curses, Enfeeble and Enfeebling Blood really stand out, and if a team has MANY enchants, why not bring Desecrate AND Rend Enchantments? Hurt em then debuff.

Look, its quite simple. PE is a powerful skill in this situation, just like many skills given the right situation. Big cluster of enemies? Meteor Storm. Does that happen often? No. But when it does the effect is spectacular.

Quote:

Putrid is so messed up in tombs that I contend that if every other necro skill in the game were removed, there would still be a strong case for every team running a putrid necro, res sig, and 6 skills from the secondary...that's just wrong.

Again, see the problem? Not PE, Tombs.

Quote:

Quite frankly, I am sick of having to put a necro in every viable build I design. In my opinion, I should not have to take a class with a otherwise near-useless primary attribute in every team I make just for one skill. I find that ridiculous. And while some might say this is similiar to needing monks on every team, I find that very different, since I often have versatility to switch between running 2, 3 or 4 monks per team, and a monk has a lot of flexibility towards contributing to the team. For example, I can run energy drain monks in a denial build, or monks with storm chaser in a ranger team with conflag/winter, etc. The necro is comparison, is horribly limited, which makes having to devote a slot to it even worse. Pretty much every necro is Tainted Flesh/Rotting Flesh/Putrid Explosion.

How does a Monk primary gain access to Storm Chaser or Energy Drains? Ohh, right, a second class. And since PE can be effective even at 0 DM as a denial tactic, you don't even need to be a Primary Necro.

I hope I've satisfied Zeru's critique of my attention to the OP... /sarcasm

ICURADik · Aug 17, 2005, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Hmm, you have to be Necro Primary for the boots.

I really think you should step away from this thread until you understand the game a little better.

White Designs · Aug 17, 2005, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Anyone who asserts Putrid strength lies solely or almost soley on its ability to deny corpses does not know what he or she is talking about. It's very simple, lets look at another skill: Necrotic Transversal, half the cost, and faster. Well then, Necrotic is better than Putrid in every way at corpse denial...and yet, nearly no one uses it. Why? Because its other effect sucks. In fact, the only real use for it in the current environment is to hopefully prevent enemy Putrids.

Although this next point is more arguable, I believe that Putrid's real strength in tombs is its actual effect: the hefty AoE damage and its ability to chain. The fact that it makes Wells/Minions all but unplayable is a very unfortunate side effect.

Kaleban, effective Putrid use requires a primary necro. I've said that repeatedly. Having Putrid at 0 death is ridiculous since you might as well run Necrotic, which no one does, since Putrid is so much better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

1. Same could be said of many skills. How much skill does it take for an Elementalist to click Meteor Storm or Lightning Orb on a Target? Probably less, since its that character's primary concern, a Necro who sits around and waits for a corpse while doing nothing is indeed useless, but so is any other character who focuses on one sole, situational skill.

Um, none of those skills single-handedly change the outcome of a match when only one person uses it, plus you can't mash it. To play an effective Ele you manage your energy and click in appropriate combinations of skills. To play a Putrid Necro you mash the button, or if your lucky, let the turbo controller do it for you.

Quote:

3. This is just plain stupid! How many classes are there? 6. Figure in an 8-man "average" team, you have a Ranger, two Monks, two Eles, and a Mesmer. Two slots left. Fill both with the ubiquitous W/Mo? Lol. The nice thing about a Necro is that he can bring so many debuffs to the table, he can almost singlehandedly debuff the opposing team. Heck, in Curses, Enfeeble and Enfeebling Blood really stand out, and if a team has MANY enchants, why not bring Desecrate AND Rend Enchantments? Hurt em then debuff.

If you are so unimaginative that every team you design comes premade with 6 slots filled, I pity you.

Kaylee Ann, I find it rather offensive that you criticize that I didn't offer a solution. Well excuse me, but that's part of the reason for posting, so others can offer advice on possible courses of action that they find beneficial. If you think its senseless whining, don't read it, and don't post.

About the issue of whether or not its Tombs or Putrid that needs fixing. I will explain it very clearly with an example: Grenth's Balance (ironically, another Necro skill). Grenth's Balance was grossly overpowerd in GvG, though it definitely was not in Tombs. Does this mean it shouldn't have been nerfed and GvG just changed? Of course not. That was an option, but so was just nerfing Grenth's Balance, and that's what happened. The situation with tombs and putrid is the same.

Kaleban · Aug 17, 2005, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

Hmm, you have to be Necro Primary for the boots.

I really think you should step away from this thread until you understand the game a little better.

Uh huh. The boots. Makes the build. I don't think I mentioned these boots in any of my posts, so this response is somewhat bewildering. Maybe you should step away until you learn how to debate?

And White, I'm not really criticizing you, although I may have come across that way. In fact, I understand your concerns, I just think that the impact of the skill is overblown given the game as a whole. And if you note, my "unimaginative" team build was specifically an "average" team build, such as a PUG or a team that would be able to handle a variety of opponent builds.

And the whole thread I contend is rather pointless, and here's why:

One skill, PE is overpowered in one situation with a combination of factors needed to make it effective, including clustered enemies, available corpse, specific map, etc. In any other type of match, PE is NOT overpowered in any way, and is probably foolish to bring along. White, you specifically state that you're "sick of including a necro in every team build you design" and that's a valid opinion, but is one game mode, and one specific situation reason enough to alter a skill to the point where it isn't used anymore?

Take Grenth's Balance. Its still pretty powerful, but in its original incarnation was grossly overpowered. But it was not situational in any way. Simply point and fire. and with a 1/4 cast time, its likely it would not be interrupted. And there are ways to get around the 60 second cast timer. I can just imagine a Mo/Ne at the 105 hp build with a 60% DP flinging about GB... scary stuff lol.

But PE is not nearly as powerful or universal. Its reliant on position, both of the corpse to enemies and the Necro to the corpse, NEEDS a corpse in the first place, with numerous counters to it, especially in the Mesmer skillset. You don't HAVE to take a Necro, but I guess I just don't understand your animosity towards this class.

As has happened since the game came out, something better will come up, a really effective universal counter will open up, and the "next big thing" will then be in vogue, with all the turbo mashing kiddies wondering what happened. I'd rather see spirit spam go away before this TBH, but that's just me.