Curse

Neo-LD · Aug 15, 2005, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Listen its not like a warrior has 0 energy and no regen. We are talking aboutt the difference between IB all the time and IB almost all the time. But no hammer warrior is used for dps... While it is still not clear if a W/* hammer or R/W hammer has higher dps, Ill tell you they are both completely outclassed by axe warriors or QS rangers in that department.

Instead, hammers are used for high damage spiking and knocking down a target. Now to do that, what one needs is the highest possible damage per hit, the ability to attack faster for a while, and the longest possible knockdown period, so the victimized healer cant get up to add his healing powers to his defense. In every one of the categories, the Warrior is the clear victor.

-------------------

Specifically against wards, I will admit R/W are slightly less screwed cus they can attack faster. But that is assuming that thw war and R/W are stupid enough to blindly attack the target inside the ward. Go Find/Call a new one. If they are ALL bundled up inside it, then your team shoul have some AoE to punish them, meaning that you have indirectly contributed to the team by forcing such a devastating AoE spell. If they scatter out of the AoE, then great you can hit stuff again.

ICURADik · Aug 15, 2005, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ender Ward

And in a build focused on attrition, I would never bring a hammer R/W. As stated in the other thread, I'll bring a QS Ranger with Kindle Arrows and Favourable Winds.

What about RtW?

UberRusty · Aug 15, 2005, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Quote:

He has strength. This gives more damage per attack, for free. This gives him EVEN more damage per attack than a R/W.

Do you mean attack skills? Last time I checked Strength's armor penetration bonus only applied to attack skills.

Quote:

They can spam all those... 5 and 0 energy... moves. Great. Warriors dont have a problem with that anyways. Congrtualations. R/W, on providing a solution where there was no problem in the first place.

I find that to be untrue. One of my R/W builds is a sword skill spammer, and it does LOTS of damage. Warriors do have a problem with that.

ICURADik · Aug 15, 2005, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Specifically against wards, I will admit R/W are slightly less screwed cus they can attack faster. But that is assuming that thw war and R/W are stupid enough to blindly attack the target inside the ward. Go Find/Call a new one. If they are ALL bundled up inside it, then your team shoul have some AoE to punish them, meaning that you have indirectly contributed to the team by forcing such a devastating AoE spell. If they scatter out of the AoE, then great you can hit stuff again.

You obviously still don't understand. An attack speed bonus does nothing to combat wards. It will simply increase your damage by 33%. Irresistible Blow is what combats wards...

bwookie · Aug 15, 2005, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Hammer is used for disruption. Easiest way to kill monks imo.

R/W works well for this purpose. That's all that needs to be said. It is better against wards/guardian/aegis than a War/X using a hammer.

Arri · Aug 15, 2005, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

You obviously still don't understand. An attack speed bonus does nothing to combat wards. It will simply increase your damage by 33%. Irresistible Blow is what combats wards...

huh???? HOW do you not know? Faster attacks = MORE attacks..MORE hits...MORE attacks = MORE hits..do the math...bye

Ender Ward · Aug 15, 2005, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

What about RtW?

I use Read the Wind in spike QS builds, because it benefits from Judges Insight (unlike Kindle). But if there is no JI in the build, then there's no longer any reason to use RtW. With me so far?

You wanted sustained DPS, so it has to be a build with the most damage for the least amount of energy. QS at 12 Marksmanship, buffed by Kindle Arrows, Favourable Winds and nothing else, is it.

When I want QS Spike damage that hits for 60-80 on AL60, then I'll use Read The Wind.

Clear enough on this point now?

P.S.
Oh yeah, I'm done with the thread. People repeating the same debunked argument = waste of my time.

Neo-LD · Aug 15, 2005, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arri

huh???? HOW do you not know? Faster attacks = MORE attacks..MORE hits...MORE attacks = MORE hits..do the math...bye

dude hes on your side. the point that both sides appear to agree to is that BOTH a war and R/W are really screwed by ward against melee, and while TF can help to an extent, it really cant overcome the ward to any significant degree.

Irresistable blow can punch through wards yes, but warriors can use almost as often and to greater effect. But all of this ward talk is really moot becuase the best solution for both characters is to go attack someone who isnt inside a ward.

ICURADik · Aug 15, 2005, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ender Ward

I use Read the Wind in spike QS builds, because it benefits from Judges Insight (unlike Kindle). But if there is no JI in the build, then there's no longer any reason to use RtW. With me so far?

You wanted sustained DPS, so it has to be a build with the most damage for the least amount of energy. QS at 12 Marksmanship, buffed by Kindle Arrows, Favourable Winds and nothing else, is it.

When I want QS Spike damage that hits for 60-80 on AL60, then I'll use Read The Wind.

Clear enough on this point now?

P.S.
Oh yeah, I'm done with the thread. People repeating the same debunked argument = waste of my time.

People with long winded ill thought out arguments using incorrect and misleading facts are what ruined the thread. I guess you still think Favorable and RtW stack?

MuKen · Aug 15, 2005, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Hey all, I haven't ever played a R/W, but I find this discussion pretty interesting. I think there's really only one way to truly settle this. The Pro R/W side has to show a build that can serve some purpose better than any other build to validate the class combo, or the anti R/W side must counter with an alternative build that does everything that build does better.

As it is now, I'm seeing too much hand-waving and generalizations to really be swayed by either argument.

bwookie · Aug 15, 2005, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by MuKen

Hey all, I haven't ever played a R/W, but I find this discussion pretty interesting. I think there's really only one way to truly settle this. The Pro R/W side has to show a build that can serve some purpose better than any other build to validate the class combo, or the anti R/W side must counter with an alternative build that does everything that build does better.

As it is now, I'm seeing too much hand-waving and generalizations to really be swayed by either argument.

What for? The people who want to use R/W will continue to. And there are good reasons to do it which have already been expressed.

If you don't like the reasons given don't use the build. That simple. All this debating to convince people on to their way of thinking is what made this thread retarded.

S H I N O B I · Aug 15, 2005, 05:53 PM // 17:53

I can understand why alot of W/x are anti-R/W... because a R/W's usefullness in pvp threatens a W/x usefullness in pvp. I guess its kinda like if someone new in your company whose potentially better has his eyes set on your job title... Hell, i'd be pissed off and try to talk shiet too hehe. Seriously though, if alot of successful guilds use R/W's on their team setup, there must be an advantage to it... How come they're not using the "supposedly" better W/x??? So that they can prove that they can win with a crappy build? How can you be sure that is their intent?

ICURADik · Aug 15, 2005, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by S H I N O B I

I can understand why alot of W/x are anti-R/W... because a R/W's usefullness in pvp threatens a W/x usefullness in pvp. I guess its kinda like if someone new in your company whose potentially better has his eyes set on your job title... Hell, i'd be pissed off and try to talk shiet too hehe. Seriously though, if alot of successful guilds use R/W's on their team setup, there must be an advantage to it... How come they're not using the "supposedly" better W/x??? So that they can prove that they can win with a crappy build? How can you be sure that is their intent?

They are both used in high level guilds. R/W are meant for teams that rely on wearing down the other teams monks then throwing a couple knockdowns to seal the deal. W/x is designed more to knockdown a taget for a solid 5 or so seconds along with a nice spike and hopefully finish them.

Unless QZ and NR are changed, I find the R/W to generally be more effective.

Ender Ward · Aug 15, 2005, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

People with long winded ill thought out arguments using incorrect and misleading facts are what ruined the thread. I guess you still think Favorable and RtW stack?

Keep on trolling.

And since you've latched onto RtW + FW (yes, they stack), I'll assume you've conceded all the other points. Good, finally.

/done.

ICURADik · Aug 15, 2005, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ender Ward

Keep on trolling.

And since you've latched onto RtW + FW (yes, they stack), I'll assume you've conceded all the other points. Good, finally.

/done.

Your so pathetic. I fukin agree that Quickshot is a great build, but RtW and FW damage does NOT stack. Why do you continue to think they do?

There is no point in arguing anything else if you can't understand this simple fact.

S H I N O B I · Aug 15, 2005, 08:35 PM // 20:35

That's the thing... Why are people trying to disprove the effectiveness of the R/W despite the fact that high level guilds are winning with R/Ws on their team setup... Doesn't that mean that R/W is just as effective as W/x on other high level guilds? Are these high lvl guilds with W/x owning high lvl guilds with R/Ws or something?

Neo-LD · Aug 15, 2005, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Ok I dont know Ive never tested extensively, and i dont know how either ender or ICURADik can be so 100% sure, but I dont see exactly why RtW and FW wouldnt stack. Its not like they are 2 preps or 2 stances. Its a spirit and a prep. And they both add damage directly to the arrow. Just sayin, its not immedeately apparent to me why they wouldnt stack, and if they dont, its probably a glitch that should be fixed so they do.

I could care less either way, since I use mainly kindle

back to topic, as has been said before in this thread, the fact that top level guilds win with R/Ws proves more that high level guilds are good enough to win with sub-par characters than that R/Ws are good. R/Ws may be a bit better at attrition than a war/*, but if you ask me a bow ranger is even better than that (Quick Shot, Debilitating Shot, Distracting Shot, Oath Shot, any of those) So if your playing a hammer your goal shouldnt really be to play attrition anyways.

Tuna · Aug 15, 2005, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by S H I N O B I

That's the thing... Why are people trying to disprove the effectiveness of the R/W despite the fact that high level guilds are winning with R/Ws on their team setup... Doesn't that mean that R/W is just as effective as W/x on other high level guilds? Are these high lvl guilds with W/x owning high lvl guilds with R/Ws or something?

In most cases W/X is going to be better. However, if your build is based around energy skill spam, by all means, go with the ranger. There are arguments for longer chain attacks with rangers but they all base around the "fact" that frenzy sucks and tigers fury pwns. If you're looking to do something special r/w might be for you, but I wouldn't recommend it unless its a last resort.

S H I N O B I · Aug 15, 2005, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

back to topic, as has been said before in this thread, the fact that top level guilds win with R/Ws proves more that high level guilds are good enough to win with sub-par characters than that R/Ws are good.

Why is it more evidence of the guild being good at a sub-par character then evidence on R/W's being effective? Why don't they use Ranged Rangers or W/x instead?

ICURADik · Aug 15, 2005, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Ok I dont know Ive never tested extensively, and i dont know how either ender or ICURADik can be so 100% sure, but I dont see exactly why RtW and FW wouldnt stack. Its not like they are 2 preps or 2 stances. Its a spirit and a prep. And they both add damage directly to the arrow. Just sayin, its not immedeately apparent to me why they wouldnt stack, and if they dont, its probably a glitch that should be fixed so they do.

I could care less either way, since I use mainly kindle

back to topic, as has been said before in this thread, the fact that top level guilds win with R/Ws proves more that high level guilds are good enough to win with sub-par characters than that R/Ws are good. R/Ws may be a bit better at attrition than a war/*, but if you ask me a bow ranger is even better than that (Quick Shot, Debilitating Shot, Distracting Shot, Oath Shot, any of those) So if your playing a hammer your goal shouldnt really be to play attrition anyways.

Why don't you test it yourself for a third opinion? Just go outside Ascalon, use RtW and attack something(it auto crits 90% of the time on monsters this low). Now put down Favorable Winds. No damage increase.