Curse

Algren Cole · Jul 27, 2005, 05:30 PM // 17:30

isn't this thread...or atleast the first part of your post...simply saying /* can't do anything as good as */ can do it. a R/Mo can't heal as well as a Mo/R....an Mo/Ele can't do as much dmg as a Ele/Mo...are you to say that we should just completely ignore the secondary class...or are you just pissed that people believe a ranger can tank and that takes away your role in PvP? The first part of your argument makes little sense as the only thing you pointed out is that your secondary isn't as strong as your primary.

btw: a ranger properly using a mix of Warrior Skills and Interupts can shut down a monk with ease..making it impossible for him to heal.

carnivore · Jul 27, 2005, 05:50 PM // 17:50

whats the point of this thread? you say urself that a r/w can win a 1v1 against a warrior(not that i need you to tell me that). so end of story, that statement alone makes it a viable character. what are u trying to prove? are you thinking there are to many r/w's running around and that warriors are getting neglected and insulted? if an r/w can be done and be affective, thats no reason to go and say, "you idiot, be a w/r, you'll be much better"

i myself run with a r/w build. usually i do really good but sometimes i run into a set of necros/mes and they degen the hell out of me. nothing i can do about it. but i can go head on against warriors easily. but i can massacre spell casters. if they try to get away, simply hamstring them and theyre done.

and even if you are right that w/r's are just as affective, but more effecient then you're right. so what? i like the style of a r/w. i dont look like a giant oaf but a slick ranger with a sword.

and finally, i do think the class is getting to popular, its not unique anymore. so i might abbandon it. i've also seen some other good sword wielders, mo/w and n/w i liked the most

Zelc · Jul 27, 2005, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creed

I will ask a question: Has anyone else noticed a sudden rise in R/W's?

I've been bewildered by the sheer amount of them.

I have, as well. In fact, I've noticed some good guilds like Fear Me running with Hammer R/Ws. I assume it's for a reason, although I'm not quite sure what reason (maybe Tiger's Fury + Expertise?).

JackOften · Jul 27, 2005, 06:13 PM // 18:13

The one reasonable point is probably the Armor Penetration from strength - which is a 7.5% damage bonus on AL 60 for every 10 points in strength or 10% vs AL80 (warrior, assuming you have an ele mod). After that you get up to 15% from having your weapon attributes at 16. By the amazing powers of addition, we conclude a W/x has a 22.5%-25% physical damage bonus - for which he gives up apply poison and a significantly higher rate of +damage skills (whose additional damage goes unmodded by armor, and is hence more efficient at ALs > 60).

So in conclusion, in raw damage a Warrior can probably outdo a ranger versus casters - albeit by a small margin, once you take into account skills. Against anything else, the R/W wins - so there you have it (plus his ability to keep up a 33% damage boost more easily than a Warr). The shield argument is bogus too, seeing as R/Ws are tactics meleers anyway - the puny boost from strength is highly overrated (especially if you're going with JI, where it sinks to an unimpressive 5% per 10 levels in str).

Enigmatics · Jul 27, 2005, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Spirits are some of the only benefits I see for ranger parimes. Nature's Renewal and QZ are some of the more popular ones for R/W to use. Warrior/rangers, however, can't cope with the high energy costs of good ranger skills, so they use garbage like apply poison and troll unguent; otherwise ignoring their ranger side completely. While TF is very useful against casters, for warriors you'll be doing a stream of 5 damage hits without armor penetration.

JackOften · Jul 27, 2005, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Meh, I should have probably mentioned how small the numbers are that you're dealing with modding on 1h weapons most of the time - but eh.

Neo-LD · Jul 27, 2005, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Hmm, nice discussion so far guys. I think many people misunderstand- W/Rs are quite possibly the worst type of secondary for a warrior. This is not R/W vs W/R, it is R/W vs any warrior in general.

When you play a R/W, your goal is to cause large melee damage - the same goal of neearly any warrior. Thus one would hope that a R/W could break even with the good warrior builds, not just the bottom-of-the-barrel W/Rs. The simple fact is that 16 point weapon + strength + secondary = much more damage for the warrior.

I will say that the one thing I forgot in my original post, which many people have pointed out, is the use of spirits. I agree, R/Ws make better spirit users than W/Rs. But few of those spirits are of much use. QZ, Natures Renewal, and Frozen Soil are the only useful ones, but I ask, if you want to use spirits, why the heck not just be a Bow ranger instead? Expertise affects bow attacks much more since they cost more, and bow also gives you acess to much better preps than Apply Poion. Better damage, better range, I cannot see why they are useful in that respect either.

So basically, if you want damage, go warrior. If you want damage with spirits, go with an archer ranger. For those of you who like R/W because hes more fun, sure, I wont argue with that. Though for me, winning is fun too.

Oh, one person said they dont like playing a warrior cus they are big oafs. Just make a female warrior with 15k knight armor. They look cool.

carnivore · Jul 27, 2005, 08:49 PM // 20:49

i guess this thread no longer applies to me. i play the r/w for the fun and uniqueness of it.

but the general feeling i get from to thread(and your posts) is that u want to change everyone who plays a melee r/w into a warrior or just be a normal ranger. thats just my feeling tho.

ElderAtronach · Jul 27, 2005, 08:56 PM // 20:56

The point of a R/W is *not* about raw damage. If it were - then I totally agree with you that W/* would be better in melee.

Think outside the box. R/W is not a cookie cutter build, it's very specialized in what it does, and it does that much better than a warrior primary can. There are several types of R/W builds that I have seen, and all of them are successful without relying on max raw dps.

carnivore · Jul 27, 2005, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElderAtronach

The point of a R/W is *not* about raw damage. If it were - then I totally agree with you that W/* would be better in melee.

Think outside the box. R/W is not a cookie cutter build, it's very specialized in what it does, and it does that much better than a warrior primary can. There are several types of R/W builds that I have seen, and all of them are successful without relying on max raw dps.

errr...what exactly does he do then?

as u said a r/w can be played many ways, i'd just like to know what you mean by that

Neo-LD · Jul 27, 2005, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by carnivore

i guess this thread no longer applies to me. i play the r/w for the fun and uniqueness of it.

but the general feeling i get from to thread(and your posts) is that u want to change everyone who plays a melee r/w into a warrior or just be a normal ranger. thats just my feeling tho.

I want to explain to people why Warriors and 'Normal' Rangers are better. Weather they conitnue to play them is totally their business. I wont complain if they use them, hey, itll be an easier win for muah.

ElderAtronach- Please dont speak in so many generalities. Saying that Rangers are "specialized" and "can be done many ways" doesnt really tell me or anyone else anything. Be more specific and you might be able to prove yourself right.

carnivore · Jul 27, 2005, 10:13 PM // 22:13

i guess all the r/w's are growing big heads arnt they. otherwise why would you care if ur better or not? unless you for some reason have a personal dislike of the build and just wants to discourage everyone. you say that warriors are better, but u also admit that a r/w could hand a warrior his own ass. then you said a warrior wouldnt worry about a r/w because he would ignore him and go for the monk because any damage done can be healed every 10 seconds. heres where i get confused. if the warrior gets healed, then that means theres a monk on his team, so why would the r/w be wasting his time tryin to hack away at someone that cannot die when he could go for the monk just like the warrior is doing?

Neo-LD · Jul 27, 2005, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Because it has often been suggested that R/Ws are supposed to stick to the enemy warriors like glue and try and make their lives miserable with blind and cripple. If the R/W is only going to go for the monk, like any other warrior, then you are REALLY better off with a war primary.

And yes most R/Ws I meet are very arrogant, and very dead.

carnivore · Jul 27, 2005, 10:23 PM // 22:23

well i've never heard that but i can see your point now. however suggesting that you would be better with a war primary just shows that you pick your builds on the dps. i, however, like the idea of actually surviving, which you said yourself r/w's are better at.

but i dont think most people play the r/w defensivly. they stack themselves with energy skills and spam away. this just show some versitility in the build.

Tuna · Jul 27, 2005, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tellani Artini

Can a W/* stay on increased attack speed constantly without sacrificing damage output or taking double damage?

Yes because if they don't take any damage there is no damage to double

Of course, I only speak from a PvP non-aoe point of view.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Jul 27, 2005, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Because it has often been suggested that R/Ws are supposed to stick to the enemy warriors like glue and try and make their lives miserable with blind and cripple. If the R/W is only going to go for the monk, like any other warrior, then you are REALLY better off with a war primary.

And yes most R/Ws I meet are very arrogant, and very dead.

I have never ever heard that. Where the heck did you hear that? Anyone who suggests that ANY class go for the warrior first is an idiot. You can't really take what they're saying seriously.

And that's the first that I've heard that R/W's are arrogant. Maybe you've mistaken their defensiveness from so many people putting them down as arrogance. You certainly can't blame them. It's strange that you have such prejudice for a class combo.

I have to agree with Carnivore in that you do seem to want all R/W's to convert to Warriors instead. All discussions about which is better aside, would you rather see more cookie cutter Wa/Mo builds instead?

Vindexus · Jul 27, 2005, 11:05 PM // 23:05

R/W can solo the Warriors. Woopdeedo, only noobs duel other melee characters in PvP.

Frenzy > Tiger's Fury. "OMG Duble DMG" you say? I say, what's double zero?

If you want to spam spirits, go bow Ranger with Oath Shot.

ICURADik · Jul 28, 2005, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Because it has often been suggested that R/Ws are supposed to stick to the enemy warriors like glue and try and make their lives miserable with blind and cripple. If the R/W is only going to go for the monk, like any other warrior, then you are REALLY better off with a war primary.

And yes most R/Ws I meet are very arrogant, and very dead.

I've never heard this. Sticking a R/W on another W is stupid. There are far better counters to other warriors than a R/W.

R/W has a more efficient, mantainable speed buff, with 0 drawbacks. Along with For Great Justice, R/W will have more adrenaline than a W of any type. For a hammer user who focuses on knocking down above damage this is a much more effective combo. The ability to use Irresistible Blow every other attack also means you will do similar if not more dps. I've tried with a Warrior, you simply don't have the energy to maintain the constant speed buff along with your attack skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

R/W can solo the Warriors. Woopdeedo, only noobs duel other melee characters in PvP.

Frenzy > Tiger's Fury. "OMG Duble DMG" you say? I say, what's double zero?

If you want to spam spirits, go bow Ranger with Oath Shot.

The way damage reduction works, doubling a 10 damage hit to 20 damage will actually lead to a 300% increase in damage taken. Normally that 10 damage would be reduced to 5(-2 knights, -3 sup. absorbtion). The 20 damage hit is still reduced by 5 and you take 15 damage. In an extreme case where, for example you are only taking 1 damage(6 before reduction). Using Frenzy leads to a 700% increase in the damage you take. Pointing out the intricacies of damage reduction actually weakens the case for frenzy.

carnivore · Jul 28, 2005, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

R/W can solo the Warriors. Woopdeedo, only noobs duel other melee characters in PvP.

Frenzy > Tiger's Fury. "OMG Duble DMG" you say? I say, what's double zero?

If you want to spam spirits, go bow Ranger with Oath Shot.

you think wanting a 1v1 melee on melee is stupid? clearly you dont play the game as i do. 1v1 always interests me, i always try to get a warrior to go one on one with. its about proving your worth and having a real duel to me. working in teams is only a burden because there is no 1v1 arena. cant say i dont like a monks help tho =P

anyway as for the the whole "r/w are suppose to stick to warriors" thing. i do that only if its a hammer warrior. my damage against them is a lot better and by the time they finally decide to take me on, theyre nearing half health.

Vermilion Okeanos · Jul 28, 2005, 12:39 AM // 00:39

I am starting to think this thread is really stupid to even go on...

wtf are you people telling others "you can only wear black shoes"? what's next? warrior/** vs mesemer/warrior? Give me a break... they got different ability, focus on different things... that was the whole point about GW.

Others don't drink water in the same way as you doesn't mean their method is worst than yours.

Let this thread drop...