Curse

Crimson Eyes · Aug 24, 2005, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCS

TF Sucks for the above reason. No one uses obsidian flame and no one will hit me with it if they do. I've NEVER been hit with obsidian flame, I've been using a frenzy war for over a month. NEVER.

You are basing your opinion that tigers fury is useless just because YOU use frenzy and YOU havnt been targetted when using it?
any DECENT guild/team that finds that a warrior is using frenzy would (should) automatically call into vent/ts and let his team know who is using frenzy so that he/she can be killed for the stupidity of bringing frenzy against a good team.

it doesnt necessarily matter what skill is used against him, whether it be obsidian flame or lightning orb or anything else.

tigers fury on its own isnt anything special, judges insight/str of honour (or both) + TF works well however.

Eonwe · Aug 24, 2005, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crimson Eyes

any DECENT guild/team that finds that a warrior is using frenzy would (should) automatically call into vent/ts and let his team know who is using frenzy so that he/she can be killed for the stupidity of bringing frenzy against a good team.

Heh, and any *decent* player will hit sprint once he sees he's being spiked. I don't see your point. Wait, you don't have one.

stumpy · Aug 24, 2005, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Most warriors running frenzy are ready to be targeted ... i mean ... if I can take the aggro off of a teamate with less armor than me for what ... 8 seconds?? That 8 seconds tends to drag on and the enemies tend to purcue for a good 15 seconds. While I hold their attention you really think my protection or healing monk is gonna say 'oh yeah, go on superman I wanna see you die' (crosses fingers and hopes his guildies didn't see this thread, for arena humour) ...

Frenzy doubles, not only as a compliment to skills like eviscerate, but as way to draw the enemy on to you ... a warrior. You more likely to survive the 8 seconds then die.

Ensign · Aug 24, 2005, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saerden

Just ignore ensign, hes a nub.

=(

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saerden

It seems that frenzy does have a downside: in a spike-heavy environment, using frenzy might actually be dangerous since spike-oriented teams do not need to take out the monk first.

Right, but that downside is only really seen against smiting and other ignores armor spikers. Against attacks that go through armor Frenzy really isn't a huge deal.

For example look at Air Spike. Against a typical caster with 60 AL, Chain Lightning is going to deal 140 damage per hit. Against an Axe Warrior under Frenzy with the PvP stance shield, Chain Lightning is going to deal 168. So in general a Warrior under Frenzy is a bit more vulnerable than a typical caster but not so much that he'll just fall over dead if someone looks at him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saerden

How good are armor-ignoring effects like obs. flame?

Well there are two that you're really concerned about - Obsidian Flame, and Signet of Judgement.

Obsidian Flame can be dismissed without further thought, because the rest of the Earth line contributes nothing to an offense. There's a bunch of nice defensive stuff, but after Obs. Flame the rest of the attack skills in that line range from poor to unplayable (with a nod given to knockdown/Aftershock spiking, but you can't exactly ninja that). Couple that with the fact that you'll need *five* Obsidian Flame spikers to guarantee a kill, and you have a spike strategy that is simply not competitive.

Signet of Judgement / Smiting spiking is a bit deeper, but you just can't get one hit kills out of it. That build requires two volleys, and a good team of Monks can easily after the first hit to keep anyone from dying. It's fast and sustainable, though, so it is dangerous.

Now in fairness are you going to want to use Frenzy against either of these strategies? No, not really, and if you do only sparingly. Are you going to run into either of these often? No. The first is something you'll only see from bad teams so you shouldn't even worry about it, just smash them with your superior build - the latter is certainly playable, and if you're running up against it with a pack of Frenzy Warriors for your offense you're going to have problems. Of course you're going to have problems with it anyway because you're looking at getting pummeled with Signets of Judgement and Bane Signets anyway, which ruin a Warrior's day - smiting is not a fun matchup for a Warrior team, period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saerden

How considerable is the dmg increase while frenzied if you compare it to an usual target (monk)?

Double from ignore armor effects, ~20% from Air Spike, negligible from normal physical attacks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saerden

Are situations where the warrior cannot switch out of frenzy fast enough? Are these situations easy to force upon the other team and is it worth it in the end?

Sure there are situations where the Warrior cannot switch out of Frenzy, and when that happens you just suck it up and deal with it. You just run for a few seconds and the Monks do their thing - it's really not that big of a deal.

Is it easy to try and force the other team into using Frenzy without Sprint charged? Sure, if you're really looking to get a spike on a Frenzying Warrior. But, again, unless you're running an ignore armor spiking team the benefits of switching to a Frenzying Warrior are marginal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

obs. flame is better than air spiking. its exhaustion, well done, but its 112 damage no matter what. therefore. 5 el/me and 3 mo/x, and with a small energy cost and short recharge, your laughing all the way to the bank. (unless prot spirit works on it).

Can't agree with this at all, for several reasons. First off, you *need* five guys spiking if you're going to get a kill, because even four guys with level 16 Obsidian Flame cannot guarantee a kill against a single target (four will hit for 472 damage which won't even kill a guy with a Superior rune if he has a Morale Bonus). That means you have no utility character, no one to drop Rends or Nature's Renewal to help with your spike. Second, your build has *no* offense besides Obsidian Flame. The rest of the Earth line is terrible for damage and you have a ton of your build devoted to it. Third, Exhaustion *devours* you. At 5 uses per 30 seconds, you're looking at completely exhausting yourself after 10 volleys and a minute, at which point it's GG. Even Air Spike, though vulnerable to energy denial, has better staying power. If they put up even a token defense, or put a Mesmer on one of your spikers, or heaven forbid a Fertile Season, it's GG.

Protective Spirit does work on Obsidian Flame. It's just a bad spike build. I like Obsidian Flame on what is otherwise a defensive character with Wards, so he can contribute to a key spike - but basing a build around spiking solely with that skill is just weak.

Peace,
-CxE

rii · Aug 24, 2005, 09:15 PM // 21:15

bah, armour ignoring should be enchant ignoring. . my wouldnt that be nice. obs flame < prot spirit? boo, not worth it. And hey, if you find me making a spike team with obs flame kill me quick before i do something else stupid. 'big spike' teams just are too full of holes to actually use, so i dont.

ICURADik · Aug 24, 2005, 11:01 PM // 23:01

A level 16 Obs Flame does 118 damage. That's 236 - 4 = 232 damage with frenzy on.

The thing you have to realize is that your cutting into the monks supremeness in healing>damage. 232 damage for 5 energy is farm more effecient than a monk 200ish heal other for 10 energy. The reason the typical team runs 3 monks is because that's all you need to outheal 5-8 damage dealers. Exhaustion sucks, but it can be dealt with.

Glyph of Energy is becoming increasingly popular, as are most energy management skills that excel under Zephyr. I often run 0 Water maelstorm, and 15 Earth Obsidian with wards on an ele.

The only hole in spike teams is fertile. That can be dealt with in certain ways.

Prot Spirit is generally too unwieldy to use especially if the other team is using Obsidian or Signet of Judgement.

Previously I only supported TF usage on Hammer warriors, but it seems as though Warriors generally have 10 dead attribute points from their secondary, and you might as well throw them into beast mastery.

rii · Aug 24, 2005, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Dead? Not really.
we all know what the damage is when doubled, the main argument is as follows:

'frenzy sucks because when someone uses it they get spiked with armour ignoring damage i.e. obs flame and therefore get owned'

reply:

' when we think were gonna get spiked (or do and are protted), we hit sprit and run away'

'but lol im going to repeat my first point again and again'

Eet GnomeSmasher · Aug 25, 2005, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Who the hell cares? If people want to use TF then let them. If you don't like it, then dont team with them. I don't get these threads. Making a thread to stop people from playing how they want is pretty silly.

Boofhead · Aug 25, 2005, 01:21 AM // 01:21

I still don't understand what's so bad about tiger's fury that makes warriors using it suck.

Downtime? 1 second max.
Less attribute points in strength? 3% armor penetration isn't going to win HoH for you.
Costs more energy? Take a zealous axe haft.
Can't take sundering? Yeah you can, just put it on your other weapon slot, then you can switch between them if you feel like a sundering axe haft is going to benefit you.

Another potential downside of using frenzy is that it requires more awareness - you have to be aware that you'll take double damage and be ready to switch to sprint to prevent this. Basically, the less you have to worry about, the easier it is to do your job (ie. kill people). Also, switching to sprint completely removes the attack speed of frenzy (it has a short cooldown so that's ok, but sprint doesn't). If you're having to switch away from frenzy to avoid the damage, then there's no real benefit to having it in the first place.

All this post is, of course, IMO.

Savio · Aug 25, 2005, 01:22 AM // 01:22

I think the OP was trying to actually HELP people who use TF. He saw a trend going wrong.

Dead attribute points from secondary? Why aren't you putting them into the primary skills?

As for spiking, Ensign already stated the answers to that. A lone Ob Flame spiker won't kill fast enough, and he'll just switch to Sprint. And Ob Flame won't hold up after a minute.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boofhead

Downtime? 1 second max.
Less attribute points in strength? 3% armor penetration isn't going to win HoH for you.
Costs more energy? Take a zealous axe haft.
Can't take sundering? Yeah you can, just put it on your other weapon slot, then you can switch between them if you feel like a sundering axe haft is going to benefit you.

\
3% can translate into a lot, damage-wise and over time. Technically since Sundering is 10% AP 10% of the time, Sundering would have an average value of about 1% AP. 3% is triple that.

Quote:

Another potential downside of using frenzy is that it requires more awareness - you have to be aware that you'll take double damage and be ready to switch to sprint to prevent this. Basically, the less you have to worry about, the easier it is to do your job (ie. kill people). Also, switching to sprint completely removes the attack speed of frenzy (it has a short cooldown so that's ok, but sprint doesn't). If you're having to switch away from frenzy to avoid the damage, then there's no real benefit to having it in the first place.

If you aren't "aware" while playing GvG or the HoH, then what are you doing there? And you mostly likely won't be the target anyway. Anything else I haven't said (and what I have said), it's been said over and over again in this thread.

Boofhead · Aug 25, 2005, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

I think the OP was trying to actually HELP people who use TF. He saw a trend going wrong.

Dead attribute points from secondary? Why aren't you putting them into the primary skills?

As for spiking, Ensign already stated the answers to that. A lone Ob Flame spiker won't kill fast enough, and he'll just switch to Sprint. And Ob Flame won't hold up after a minute.

But he doesn't have to kill you, just hurt you a lot so that puts more pressure on your monks. More healing required for you = less energy for your monks = less healing for other members of your team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

3% can translate into a lot, damage-wise and over time. Technically since Sundering is 10% AP 10% of the time, Sundering would have an average value of about 1% AP. 3% is triple that.

Let's translate it then.
If you're hitting a 60AL player with 10% armor penetration that = ~54AL
If you're hitting a 60AL player with 13% armor penetration that = ~52AL
That means if you've got 13% AP you will probably hit for an extra ~4% damage over 10% AP.
If you hit them for 50 dmg, that means 13% will make it 54 and 10% will make it 51.
If you hit them for 100 dmg, 13% will make it 108 and 10% will make it 102.

Enough extra damage to make the difference? You decide.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

If you aren't "aware" while playing GvG or the HoH, then what are you doing there? And you mostly likely won't be the target anyway. Anything else I haven't said (and what I have said), it's been said over and over again in this thread.

It's not about how aware you are, it's about making your job (and your monks' job) easier.

(I'm a strong believer in the KISS principle: Keep It Simple, Stupid.)

MCS · Aug 25, 2005, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Another potential downside of using frenzy is that it requires more awareness - you have to be aware that you'll take double damage and be ready to switch to sprint to prevent this. Basically, the less you have to worry about, the easier it is to do your job (ie. kill people). Also, switching to sprint completely removes the attack speed of frenzy (it has a short cooldown so that's ok, but sprint doesn't). If you're having to switch away from frenzy to avoid the damage, then there's no real benefit to having it in the first place.

Thats not a downside, you should be aware of whats happening anyway. People targeting you isn't a bad thing. You lose 33% attack speed for a while but you've just got all their damage dealers to attack you. It's more than a good enough trade off.

Quote:

But he doesn't have to kill you, just hurt you a lot so that puts more pressure on your monks. More healing required for you = less energy for your monks = less healing for other members of your team.

It doesn't put preasure on the monks it takes preasure off of them. You're not going to hit the warrior with multiple double damage hits and there is the time between switching targets, the extra armor, the time to switch back to the monks. A couple double damage hits is a small price to pay.

Besides all of this is pointless, no one targets warriors frenzy or otherwise period. I don't care what you claim you do people don't target warriors.

Savio · Aug 25, 2005, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boofhead

But he doesn't have to kill you, just hurt you a lot so that puts more pressure on your monks. More healing required for you = less energy for your monks = less healing for other members of your team.

Only if they're spiking you. And if they're spiking you then the rest of the team doesn't need healing. If they're just normally attacking you as a warrior, you probably won't have problems beating them.

Quote:

Let's translate it then.
If you're hitting a 60AL player with 10% armor penetration that = ~54AL
If you're hitting a 60AL player with 13% armor penetration that = ~52AL
That means if you've got 13% AP you will probably hit for an extra ~4% damage over 10% AP.
If you hit them for 50 dmg, that means 13% will make it 54 and 10% will make it 51.
If you hit them for 100 dmg, 13% will make it 108 and 10% will make it 102.

Enough extra damage to make the difference? You decide.

10% armor penetration only happens 10% of the time with Sundering, and that's with a perfect mod. So, making a rough estimate of how much it affects overall damage, 10% x 10% = 1%. 3% armor penetration, always, does more damage than a perfect Sundering. Wasting attribute points in a skill line for one skill that saves you from non-existant damage does not compare to doing more damage.

Quote:

It's not about how aware you are, it's about making your job (and your monks' job) easier.

(I'm a strong believer in the KISS principle: Keep It Simple, Stupid.)

Monks usually have to worry about themselves more than the warriors.

Boofhead · Aug 25, 2005, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCS

Besides all of this is pointless, no one targets warriors frenzy or otherwise period. I don't care what you claim you do people don't target warriors.

Unless you get caught in a putrid explosion or smiting or some other AOE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Only if they're spiking you. And if they're spiking you then the rest of the team doesn't need healing. If they're just normally attacking you as a warrior, you probably won't have problems beating them.

Maybe you're right, maybe it won't make a difference until your monks are dead. But maybe not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

10% armor penetration only happens 10% of the time with Sundering, and that's with a perfect mod. So, making a rough estimate of how much it affects overall damage, 10% x 10% = 1%. 3% armor penetration, always, does more damage than a perfect Sundering. Wasting attribute points in a skill line for one skill that saves you from non-existant damage does not compare to doing more damage.

Sorry, I should've made that clearer: 10% AP is from 10 Strength you will have if you're using TF, 13% AP is from 13 Strength you will have if you're using Frenzy - the Sundering mod was not included in those calculations.

Kurow · Aug 25, 2005, 02:15 AM // 02:15

im pretty sure kiss stands for knights in the service of satan... but i might be wrong?

Savio · Aug 25, 2005, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boofhead

Unless you get caught in a putrid explosion or smiting or some other AOE.

Putrid? If you were paying attention, you wouldn't get caught in it. Smiting? Same as spike.

Quote:

Sorry, I should've made that clearer: 10% AP is from 10 Strength you will have if you're using TF, 13% AP is from 13 Strength you will have if you're using Frenzy - the Sundering mod was not included in those calculations.

Good - I was hoping you weren't bringing up Sundering. So let's drop it.

If you're a warrior, you'll probably use skills a lot and try to deal as much damage as you can. According to your calculations, that 3% AP translates into 6% more damage, which is substantially better than worrying about damage on a warrior. Warriors reducing damage on themselves has no place in GvG or the Tombs.

ICURADik · Aug 25, 2005, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

I think the OP was trying to actually HELP people who use TF. He saw a trend going wrong.

Maybe he's the one that needs help.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Dead attribute points from secondary? Why aren't you putting them into the primary skills?

12+4/10/8+1 seems pretty damn standard to me. I guess you could get 4 more points into str for a net benefit of total crap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

As for spiking, Ensign already stated the answers to that. A lone Ob Flame spiker won't kill fast enough, and he'll just switch to Sprint. And Ob Flame won't hold up after a minute.

So one ele with obs flame can completely limit your warrior to 33% less damage? Seems like a good trade. Even one ele occasionally blasting your warrior at will for 230+ damage will begin to tax your monks.

Eonwe · Aug 25, 2005, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

Maybe he's the one that needs help.

No.

Quote:

So one ele with obs flame can completely limit your warrior to 33% less damage? Seems like a good trade.

No.

Quote:

Even one ele occasionally blasting your warrior at will for 230+ damage will begin to tax your monks.

No.

Did I miss anything?

Bast · Aug 25, 2005, 04:17 AM // 04:17

No.

12345

MCS · Aug 25, 2005, 04:22 AM // 04:22

Read the entire thread and all points you people are making have already been gone over and proven incorrect. Hell half of them were explained in my OP.

If ignorance is bliss then a lot of you are more happy than Rossie O' Donald in a WNBA locker room.