Curse

cookiehoarder · Aug 27, 2005, 01:01 PM // 13:01

smite hex on #_!

FiveDisgruntledMonkeys · Aug 27, 2005, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Yeah. Another thing about Fragility builds (something I think smurfhunter touched on, but I want to make clear) is that they're -very- costly Energy-wise.
The standard Fragility-combo goes like this: Fragility + Phantom Pain + Shatter Delusions + Virulence.
That's 35 Energy with a 15 Recharge. Unless you somehow found room for Inspiration in your Attribute spread, you're going to be waiting on Energy regeneration for quite a while.
Energy Tap/Energy Drain/Ether Feast/Energy Surge/Energy Burn/Power Leak/Power Drain/Guilt/Signet of Weariness/Wither/Mailaise/Channeling/Ether Lord/Fear Me! ftw.

c h a v e z · Aug 27, 2005, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

PvPing... Fragility pops up, my ranger crumples and dies. Went from full health to dead in secs.

NERF Fragility!

Or tell me how to survive it...

Seriously, first time faced that. Devastating.

If someone makes a better build then me, instead of thinking up your own build to come around it, cry for a nerfing. Nice logic.

Quebec Osti · Aug 27, 2005, 06:42 PM // 18:42

well fragility + phantom pain + shatter desilusion + virulance is a great combo... But the fact its so easily countered, that the whole combo cost a lot of mana and the fact you cant be much use else than doing ur combo make this build far from overpowered imo. Also, fragility does NOT trigger if a condition thats alrdy on you is applied again. It just reset the timer without trigering fragility a 2nd time.

smurfhunter · Aug 28, 2005, 07:02 AM // 07:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quebec Osti

well fragility + phantom pain + shatter desilusion + virulance is a great combo... But the fact its so easily countered, that the whole combo cost a lot of mana and the fact you cant be much use else than doing ur combo make this build far from overpowered imo

its *not* easily countered in a TA/random arenas setting simply because in random you cant self heal it (unless you have some really weirded out build) and in team arenas you need to bring specific skills to counter it, although it is significantly doable in TA.

and really this discussion has nothing to do with air eles, they were just an example of a build that can maintain high damage output for the duration of the match.

fragility isnt supposed to support some nooby sword warrior. its supposed to do a quick frag. my point was that it is cost inneficient, which it is. end of story really.

arredondo · Aug 28, 2005, 08:47 AM // 08:47

Assisting a Warrior is an option, not a prime strat. It IS a team game, and those free opportunities come up (mega damage for only 20E).

As for its "cost inefficiency", that's just plain laughable. For the cost of 50% energy, an enemy dies or is left with a few morsels of health. The monk can save him, but the monk can save the victim of ANY offensive assault. Continue to forum theorize all you wish, but dead opponents are dead opponents on the actual playfield.

Man With No Name · Aug 28, 2005, 09:56 AM // 09:56

From my Warriors point of view...

I'm finding that this Fragility combo isn't quite as powerful as people make it out to be ( even with a complete motley crew of a team )

Infact the team that have a Mesmer that uses Illusion ( instead of the Domination/Inspiration route ) is usually the team that loses...

There's no doubt you'll likely die in an instant ( and maybe multiple times ) but I find a bit of quick rezzing usually wins the match.

Skills like Unyielding Aura (E) / Vengence -- usually work well as the Mesmer doesn't bring Shatter Enchantments -- with the former allowing a Full Health/Energy rez with no further DP ( although prevention is better than cure

)

After the first or second wave they tend to be done for -- By now I'm usually rezzed back up and that Mesmer has just labelled themselves P.E. #1

smurfhunter · Aug 28, 2005, 10:43 AM // 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

Assisting a Warrior is an option, not a prime strat. It IS a team game, and those free opportunities come up (mega damage for only 20E).

As for its "cost inefficiency", that's just plain laughable. For the cost of 50% energy, an enemy dies or is left with a few morsels of health. The monk can save him, but the monk can save the victim of ANY offensive assault. Continue to forum theorize all you wish, but dead opponents are dead opponents on the actual playfield.

you need fragility on someone to do anything. a condition to start virulence. you need virulence to do damage. thats the entire frag. doing half of that doesnt do anything. actually what you just said strongly reminds me of forum theory... have you ever actually done what you said ...^ ?

...you are being difficult here a frag. *requires* a certain combination of skills for it to work. this separates it from a simple high damage attacker because an ele simply has to cast a spell to do damage, a fragility mesmer needs the entire setup to work. were going in circles here, with you pretending you can do a frag as many times as you want without running out. i suggest you actually *try the build* in TA once, maybe?

one final point - assuming you are at < max energy and you do a "partial frag" (which doesnt exist but ill pretend it does for the sake of argument), you will be at 0 energy. now you can only wand people.

fragility mesmers use alot of energy, and have little way of bringing it back. = ineficiency. i dont intend to say that again, ive said it several times and if it doesnt stick, your loss.

Rajamic · Aug 28, 2005, 11:13 AM // 11:13

I don't see why you think they have few options for regaining energy. Fragility and Phantom Pain are both in Illusion. Shatter Delusions is in Domination, and Virulence is in Curses. For this to work, you need Curses to be low, and the Damage from Shatter Delusions is just icing, not the cake. So at this point, you've spent in Illusion, and at least some in Fast Casting to keep your opponents' windows of opportunity small.

How is getting Inspiration up to say 9 at this point hard?

arredondo · Aug 28, 2005, 11:42 AM // 11:42

It's not hard to accomodate that line if needed. He just wants to be contrary for the sake of being contrary, theorizing on the forums instead of playing the actual game. I've never had to add energy options because energy is never a problem. I wait for skill recharges like everyone else, but energy is rarely a concern.

Say your propaganda all you want. Say it a hundred times. It won't take an ounce away from your ignorance. Ignorance = "not knowing". I've done this build (besides many others) for months. I can't even estimate how many matches. With PuGs I've gotten 20+ win streaks about five times -it ain't rocket science. I'd say at least 80% of the time, the full combo attaches and kills with ease on a chosen target. We can list all the counters we wish, and several are effective as I've repeatedly explained, but while you theorize from your cushy forum theory chair in threads like these, all I can do is state results.

I've filled the experience bar with a PvP-character Fragility build several times to find out that the earned skill points are wasted. Anytime I need a quick 2K-3K Faction, this build gives it to me with ease. Dead opponents send PMs cursing me as "cheap" after they've been booted from the arena, and several PuG teammates have put me in their friends lists with offers to play again in the future.

That's the difference between the two points of this debate... you are posting from fantasy land about what you THINK are problems, I'm simply correcting the mistakes of you and others by sharing what I know happens on the field from real experience. Yes, you may be able to stop it 99% of the time. So can I. Any build can be stopped, that's no news at all. But the fact is, there are tons of players, in CA and TA, that quickly die from Fragility combos. I've lost on plenty of teams due to this build simply because I happend to be using a build that couldn't stop him from killing my team members. I can survive, but it's hard winning 3v4 at times, especially when a build like this is reloading to take out another team mate.

Reread the first post in this thread to wake you up to reality. He practically blinked and he was dead. For every one prepared player that at least can handle it (interrupts, HB, key removals, heals, etc.) there are ten others that fold away like lawn chairs. If I can't take out one target, I go for their team mate and usually its all good. I've been shut down completely by maybe eight or so players. Most losses (which does happen often enough) are usually a result of my random teammates not taking care of business as I'm causing mayhem.

I myself have taken on equipping Hex Breaker ONLY because of this build. No other Hex build has ever repeatedly forced me to deal with them in this manner before. If I can't fit Hex Breaker or an interrupt (etc.) in my experimental builds, I warn my team to be careful and I will keep my distance from a MeNe until I'm sure he can't kill me with Fragility. I can accept reality. Otherwise, he's usually my first order of business to take care of as my mates go for the Monk or other high priority target if I can handle him solo.

So when I'm using it myself and I go after a target... what if the first pass not successful (maybe HB stopped Fragility)? Just like an Air Ele that's been Power Blocked, or a Smite Monk that's been disenchanted, I regroup and deal with what I have until I'm again at 100%. Fragility takes 15 seconds to recharge, and I have plenty of survival skills as I cast other mini combos about while I recharge.

You say 35%-50% combos here and there are nothing? Ignorance is quickly dissolving into stupidity. I guess the moral of your story is 100% damage or nothing? What is the point of ANY offensive build doing damage then if it doesn't kill everytime? All builds have to deal with not being able to do exactly what they want. Your attempts at making points from the forum theory lounge chair are failing.

In real action (you know, with the game actually turned on), 35%-50% damage makes its mark felt when opportunities are taken advantage of. And no, forum theory is wrong again as spending 20E for a "partial-frag" that does a lot of damage won't put me at empty. It's so obvious that you're trying to figure out all possibilities inside your mind as you throw out these misguided comments that I wonder if you've even seen this kind of build more than once or twice. I don't have to kill on the first pass because I won't be killed in between as I do supplemental damage. The kills will come in the majority of fights, and this build is flexible enough to accomodate most changes in plans.

Can great teams control/defeat this build and win? Absolutely. Happens to Fragility builds as with any offensive build. However the truth is, there aren't all that many teams out there to stop ANY decent team that includes a build like this. Is every team with an Air Ele victorious? Of course not. Most Air Eles are bad to average, and users of this build is no different. Most defenders on the field facing ANY powerful offensive setup are bad to average at surviving also.

The problem isn't stopping it I've agreed. The problem is that there aren't enough people on a given team that can do it properly. That's one reason why I'm correcting the mistakes of the haters here. If you are gonna offer advice, at least be correct. Continue to argue as you wish I guess. Results on the actual field of play don't change as often as forum theory does, but if it makes you giggle to be lost and confused, have at it.

Mhydrian · Aug 28, 2005, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Fragility needs to be tuned. Pointing out obscure solutions to counter one extremely overpowered build isnt really productive. In 4 on 4 arenas you are basically toast once fragility pops on you. Smite hex , if you are lighting fast might save you from some damage.

But when you have to fall back on monk skills to defend against a certain build, you have essentially placed a dependence on the monk class. I dont want to run a healing hands build exclusively. The Frag mes has to great an impact on PVP. Playing as my ranger or any build other than a monk I see fragility and I know I am dead.

Cntrl clicking the fragility doesnt do any good, monk more than likely cant save you. its a one shot kill in many cases.

smurfhunter · Aug 28, 2005, 06:26 PM // 18:26

...the fact that you have a 900 page reply im not even reading implies you take what i say seriously... this post has become a become a personal feud between me and arredondo, so ill just ignore you...

and yea Mhydrian you are essentially right. thats all there is to say on fragility anyway. ofcourse there are counters and ofcourse you can argue with arredondo all day about it, but its still just a build like any other, with the counters we all mentioned, healing seed, (HH works too but its not very usefull outside this), shielding hands, convert hexes... etc.

thats all there is to say about it really

arredondo · Aug 28, 2005, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Mhydrian: I don't think a nerf is the answer, but believe me I've been killed by it quite a few times to fear it myself if I don't have the tools to defend myself (usually from not having a Me in my build).

Just yesterday I was interrupting a MeNe's attempts to kill a PuG teammate (we made it to TAs), then proceeded to drain his energy. Unfortunately my damage dealers didn't get to him as they were on the monk. I didn't have room for HB, and my interrupts at key moments were enough to carry me.

He must've called his Warrior buddy on me because as soon as I started defending my self from the melee, he turned his wrath on me. The Warrior Sver Artery+Gash combo'd me, and I got Fragility+Virulence cast on me from the side (20E and .7+.75+.7= a 2.1 cast on average from my experience), and I was toast.

People love to to hate on it as if it isn't anything more dangerous than any other build. Wrong. It's one of the top three or four death-dealers in the game. Any build can be stopped, and organized crews won't have trouble unless the team with a Fragger or two also is organized with their own advanced strategies as well.

arredondo · Aug 28, 2005, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by smurfhunter

...the fact that you have a 900 page reply im not even reading implies you take what i say seriously... this post has become a become a personal feud between me and arredondo, so ill just ignore you...

and yea Mhydrian you are essentially right. thats all there is to say on fragility anyway. ofcourse there are counters and ofcourse you can argue with arredondo all day about it, but its still just a build like any other, with the counters we all mentioned, healing seed, (HH works too but its not very usefull outside this), shielding hands, convert hexes... etc.

thats all there is to say about it really

I'm preventing players like the OP from dying due to false information from haters, as well as informing Fraggers about ways to cover up any holes in their builds as best possible. Battling forum theory with actual experience takes a few words sometimes. With that said, I have no disagreement with your recent post.

thekolman · Aug 28, 2005, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mhydrian

Fragility needs to be tuned. Pointing out obscure solutions to counter one extremely overpowered build isnt really productive. In 4 on 4 arenas you are basically toast once fragility pops on you. Smite hex , if you are lighting fast might save you from some damage.

Obscure solutions? What are you talking about. Mend ailment is one of the most common monk spells in the game. After phantom pain gives you deep wound, just mend it and bam, you have completely destroyed his fragility chain. Or, just distract any of his fragility chain spells (distracting shot, distracting blow, mesmer interrupts). Or smite the damn hex. In no way does fragility need to be tuned at all.

It's true that if you are running in random arena without any counters to fragility then ya, you'll probably die really fast. But that will happen against any high damage build without proper defense.

smurfhunter · Aug 28, 2005, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

I'm preventing players like the OP from dying due to false information from haters, as well as informing Fraggers about ways to cover up any holes in their builds as best possible. Battling forum theory with actual experience takes a few words sometimes. With that said, I have no disagreement with your recent post.

you confuse me; what i said in the previous post was all i ever said. the FACT that it takes alot of energy and is limited to several uses is fact, not forum theory or misinformation, sorry if that disturbs you...

thekolman · Aug 28, 2005, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

People love to to hate on it as if it isn't anything more dangerous than any other build. Wrong. It's one of the top three or four death-dealers in the game.

I agree with you there, but also it is one of the top three or four most easily countered builds in the game, which in my opinion makes it balanced.

smurfhunter · Aug 28, 2005, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by thekolman

I agree with you there, but also it is one of the top three or four most easily countered builds in the game, which in my opinion makes it balanced.

what really balances is it is the fact that its totally useless in 8-8/tombs, 3 monks must be really distracted/crappy to let someone die from it.

arredondo · Aug 28, 2005, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by thekolman

Obscure solutions? What are you talking about. Mend ailment is one of the most common monk spells in the game. After phantom pain gives you deep wound, just mend it and bam, you have completely destroyed his fragility chain. Or, just distract any of his fragility chain spells (distracting shot, distracting blow, mesmer interrupts). Or smite the damn hex. In no way does fragility need to be tuned at all.

It's true that if you are running in random arena without any counters to fragility then ya, you'll probably die really fast. But that will happen against any high damage build without proper defense.

Mend Ailment is .75 and Virulence with decent Fast Cast points is .7 to cast. So while it is nowhere near a guarantee that a Monk can time the removal of DW for you when a focused Fragger is timing his Virulence at the same time, the skill still works well because it will remove Poison instead if it is late and give a decent health bonus for the remaining three (two Fragility triggers after that). MA is a nice, nice skill.

arredondo · Aug 28, 2005, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by smurfhunter

you confuse me; what i said in the previous post was all i ever said. the FACT that it takes alot of energy and is limited to several uses is fact, not forum theory or misinformation, sorry if that disturbs you...

#52 is the post I agreed with. The stuff before it was filled with false forum theory that will misinform the masses.

Quote:

what really balances is it is the fact that its totally useless in 8-8/tombs, 3 monks must be really distracted/crappy to let someone die from it.

The same can be said if they allow a quick death from almost anything.