Curse

zehly · Aug 23, 2005, 12:25 AM // 00:25

I got slammed today in the Tombs for bringing rebirth with my monk. They were like "REBIRTH WTF THATS NOOB ROFL!!!111" Yeah, it sucked, until I used it to bring up another monk out of harms way, with only a 3 second down time (ty +16 prot prayers).

So, to begin the thread:

What skill is best for PvP Tombs? AND under what conditions do you bring it (i.e., which character, etc.)
- Res Signet
- Resurrect
- Rebirth
- Restore Life
- Vengence + Divine Intervention
- Unyielding Aura + Divine Intervention

Eonwe · Aug 23, 2005, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Monks shouldn't be carrying any ressurection skill, at all. The only res that we carry when we play are res sigs.

zehly · Aug 23, 2005, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eonwe

Monks shouldn't be carrying any ressurection skill, at all. The only res that we carry when we play are res sigs.

Do you mind backing this up with some kind of rationale?

smurfhunter · Aug 23, 2005, 12:34 AM // 00:34

my advice: listen to someone in a guild that wins hoh

my other advice is have everyone bring sigs except maybe one monk with restore life, in the off chance someone leaves him alive you can bring the team back. but normally there was a reason your team died in the first place, so it really doesnt matter.

listen to eonwe

*edit* you just posted asking about why.. its pretty simple: you waste time.

you waste about 5 seconds on ressurect, something you can do with a sig in about 2 secs, and your wasting time as a monk.

rebirth is especially horrible because it eats all yur energy

the res at a distance is never really used because you cant evade aggro like in pve. and restore life restores to almost max energy so its what i would use if you really want a perm res

Eonwe · Aug 23, 2005, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by zehly

Do you mind backing this up with some kind of rationale?

Bringing any type of ressurect skill on the highest priority target is just well... comepletly idiotic? Especially a six second pve rez in your case. That just screams "Interrupt me Please! Then kill Me!l

Sarus · Aug 23, 2005, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Here's why you don't put rezz on your monks ... even sigs.

Typical tombs teams have 3 monks.

Monks usually die first.

Monk A goes down.

You now have 2 monks left on your team.

Monk B stops to rezz Monk A and is no longer healing.

You now have 1 monk left on your team.

Either Monk B or Monk C dies while Monk A is in the process of getting rezzed since your healing "power" has just been cut by 66.6666%

You now have 1 monk left on your team

Monk C dies

you now have no monks left on your team and nobody to rezz them

--------------------
The above argument applies to all forms of rezzing on monks. The reason you got laughed out of tombs for bringing rebirth should be pretty obvious.

Rebirth takes 6 seconds to cast which means for 6 seconds you team is down a monk while you stand there and wave your arms around. Then ... when you rezz your fallen buddy he comes back to life with all his skills DISABLED. At 15 prot it's only 3 seconds but if you're rezzing a monk that means you're still a monk down for 3 seconds. So far your team has been down a monk for 9 seconds (assuming you have 15 prot which is a big IF). On top of that you loose ALL your energy. That means you're totally worthless. So in reality your team becomes down 2 monks! Finally, the guy you rezzed is gonna come back up with not much health, no way to heal himself, and you have no way to heal him either. The second people see rebirth they just run over to you and kill the guy you just rezzed.

EmperorTippy · Aug 23, 2005, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Yes rebirth was a bad choice as the other 2 posters said. As a monk bring a res sig. Most everyone should bring a sig (some times it wont fit on your char in a very specific build but this is not usally the case). An E/Mo can get away with light of dwanya but their the only ones who can because of the huge energy cost (25 energy 4 second cast 1 miniute recharge resses all in an area). A Me/Mo who is specced to be a quick resser should prolly bring restore life (or a sig recharging skill and res sig but it depends) but otherwise it is sigs all the way.

Ensign · Aug 23, 2005, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by zehly

I got slammed today in the Tombs for bringing rebirth with my monk.

In fairness, you should have. Bringing Rebirth into Tombs, particularly on a Monk, is arguably more nub than Warriors with Gladiator's Defense.

It's quite simple really. In a hard fight, a team of 8 will need 3 Monks to weather both the disruption and damage being thrown at a team. Now if a Monk goes down, you have 2 Monks trying to defend against the opposing offense, and while that's possible it's far from a stable situation.

So one of the remaining Monks starts to cast Rebirth. This has the following problems:

1) Your team now has *one* Monk trying to keep the entire team alive while you stand there casting a six second resurrection spell. Most teams don't have any problem whatsoever killing through one Monk.

2) The resurrecting Monk, after those 6.75 seconds of uselessness are up, has no energy whatsoever. Meaning that he isn't just ineffective for the time it takes to cast that res, but for several more seconds afterwards.

3) The resurrected Monk isn't exactly useful either, coming back not only with blacked out skills, but with *no* energy whatsoever, and only a token number of hit points.

The net result is 10 seconds spend bringing a nigh-useless character back to the fight who in all likelihood will promptly be killed again, as the team doesn't exactly have any way to protect him.

There's no doubt about it - Rebirth is *worse than useless* in PvP. Unlike the actually good resses, I never bother interrupting the Rebirth - the damage the Monk is inflicting upon himself by losing all energy, coupled with how quickly you can drop a newly Rebirthed foe (one hit in many cases) makes interrupting the skill *a mistake*.

Rebirth is not a combat res. It shouldn't even be used during combat in PvE outside of the most desperate of circumstances - I physically cringe whenever I see a Monk stop healing to cast Rebirth mid battle. Rebirth is your catastrophe plan. If all else has gone wrong and a team is wiped out completely in PvE, Rebirth will allow a running Monk to bring the entire team back over the course of several minutes. This situation is *not* relevant in PvP, because if you're the last one alive running away is not going to break aggro.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zehly

What skill is best for PvP Tombs? AND under what conditions do you bring it (i.e., which character, etc.)

Monks should *never* bring a Res. A Monk dies and there are two Monks, then one starts ressing and there is effectively one Monk, and within a matter of seconds there are no Monks.

Res Signet is the best PvP res in the game. It brings your ally back into the battle at full health quickly, and he even has a bit of energy so he can begin contributing right away. Every team should have a few Res Signets on it, preferably on lower priority targets who will tend to be the last ones standing, and who can afford to stop what they're doing for a few seconds to use it without the battle falling apart.

Some teams will want a 'hard Res' so they have a fallback plan in case all of the Res Signets have been used up. 99% of the time the right skill for this job is Restore Life. It's more obvious than most resses, but it's the only option available that will get an ally back into the battle, instead of bringing back a useless body that'll promptly be put back down again. Like Res Signets, the hard res is best used on a low priority target who can afford to stop fighting and res. Mesmer/Monks are good for this, too, as Fast Casting helps with resses immensely.

That's it. Res Signet and Restore Life are all the skills you're going to need for 99% of your PvP experience. The rest are either best used in PvE or are just plain bad and should never be touched by any serious player.

Peace,
-CxE

Morganas · Aug 23, 2005, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Sheesh, just because you have a res doesn't mean you use it in battle. Rebirth is obviously not a combat res, no one in their right mind would cast it in battle. Rebirth is still awesome for a monk to bring in tombs, because if you manage to retreat you can pluck your guys out one by one while the other teams duke it out.

wolfy3455 · Aug 23, 2005, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morganas

Sheesh, just because you have a res doesn't mean you use it in battle. Rebirth is obviously not a combat res, no one in their right mind would cast it in battle. Rebirth is still awesome for a monk to bring in tombs, because if you manage to retreat you can pluck your guys out one by one while the other teams duke it out.

Its not like people ever notice someone using an eight second cast right next to them.

Morganas · Aug 23, 2005, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Rebirth has an extremely long range, it's easy to res your guys out of a fight if the other team is under attack.

Scaphism · Aug 23, 2005, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morganas

Sheesh, just because you have a res doesn't mean you use it in battle. Rebirth is obviously not a combat res, no one in their right mind would cast it in battle. Rebirth is still awesome for a monk to bring in tombs, because if you manage to retreat you can pluck your guys out one by one while the other teams duke it out.

If the other teams let you get away and begin duking it out you're playing against fools. There's no way to be kind about that.

Often in the lower-tier Tombs maps we'll finish off 6 or 7 players on a team and as we're closing in on the final guy another team will come rushing in to try and take us out- there are few things more frustrating that watching the last guy get away because a third team has interfered. You can hardly call it a mistake on our part- it's generally a bad move to turn your back on a team of 8 to chase down one guy. Even if you get him, you've just given the enemy team free crits on you as you run away.

If the last guy does manage to rez his entire team (and it's happened when the third team has engaged us) what advantage does Rebirth really give you?
You act like it's so obvious...but it's not. Good teams wont let you get away. If you're the last guy alive on your team Rebirth vs Restore Life is an irrelevant discussion. You're either being ignored, and you'll have time to get off either rebirth or restore life, or you're being chased, and the difference between them doesn't matter as you'll die anyways.

All that, however, is still irrelevant. If you're playing a primary monk healer/protector, you don't have room on your skillbar to bring a rez, nor do you have time to use it. Instead of playing for what to do when you're the last guy standing, bring a skill that will help your team out while the battle is still going, so you don't ever have to be the last guy standing.

Zeru · Aug 23, 2005, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Are you going to waste a skill slot on a monk (who needs all the room they can get for healing/prot, anti-hex, or energy) for a situation like that which happens 1/100 matches at best?

It's not a wise idea to assume or hope that your opponents will be dumb so that something will work.

thaumaturge · Aug 23, 2005, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Rebirth is the best - bar none - PvE resurrect in the game, I can't count how many times it's saved a whole party because poor dumb AI can't see the res. Rebirth however is a poor PvP skill, not only does it Blackout the opponent for 2+ seconds it removes all of your energy and that's bad bad bad. Teleporting to your current location really isn't that much of an advantage. Res sig is the win, full health, 3 seconds and with energy and it can be restored in gvg battles if you get enough morale boost. I've tried using restore life as a warrior before and surprised that I was successful but really it paints a huge target on me saying interrupt me and I'm out of action and getting attacked for 8 seconds, I know whenever I see an opposing monk with the big swirling icon above there head I'm over there and skullcracking them to death. If you really need to res too many times anyway you are going to be in trouble in the long term.

Morganas · Aug 23, 2005, 01:36 AM // 01:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scaphism

If the other teams let you get away and begin duking it out you're playing against fools. There's no way to be kind about that.

Often in the lower-tier Tombs maps we'll finish off 6 or 7 players on a team and as we're closing in on the final guy another team will come rushing in to try and take us out- there are few things more frustrating that watching the last guy get away because a third team has interfered. You can hardly call it a mistake on our part- it's generally a bad move to turn your back on a team of 8 to chase down one guy. Even if you get him, you've just given the enemy team free crits on you as you run away.

If the last guy does manage to rez his entire team (and it's happeend when the third team has engaged us) what advantage does Rebirth really give you?
You act like it's so obvious...but it's not. Good teams wont let you get away. If you're the last guy alive on your team Rebirth vs Restore Life is an irrelevant discussion. You're either being ignored, and you'll have time to get off either rebirth or restore life, or you're being chased, and the difference between them doesn't matter as you'll die anyways.

All that, however, is still irrelevant. If you're playing a primary monk healer/protector, you don't have room on your skillbar to bring a rez, nor do you have time to use it. Instead of playing for what to do when you're the last guy standing, bring a skill that will help your team out while the battle is still going, so you don't ever have to be the last guy standing.

Wait, what?
You say only fools would let us get away, and then rant about how you were forced to let teams get away because you were attacked as they fled and it's not your fault?

Exactly half of your contradictory post is true. Often times even a good team will have to let some of you escape to fend off an attack from a third party (who often stand at the sidelines to kill the victor as soon as such a thing happens).
Rebirth is invaluable in these instances. And no, restore life won't work. Your rezed teamate and you will die if you try and use any other res in the middle of a battle between two other teams.

ComMan · Aug 23, 2005, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Light of Dwayna casts faster than Frozen Soil and can rez multiple allies (in theory), but you have to be in the line of fire.

Rez. Sig casts faster than Frozen Soil and is the most powerful rez, and everyone can take one.

Unyielding Aura/Vengence cast faster than Frozen Soil, which doesn't matter since they work with it down, and bring the dead back to 100%.

IMO, have a /mo take Vengence, Ressurect, or Light if you really want a rez, but not your healer for reasons listed above.

Restore Life is overrated.

smurfhunter · Aug 23, 2005, 01:38 AM // 01:38

usually if you are the last one on your team thats alive its because 1) someone else ran in and attacked, 2) it that annoying burial mounds ish map with the doors, 3) someones trying the fabled hoh trick.

and if your team died, its not like some magical fist crushed you. its because the other team is *better*. so even if you do res, your dp wont help you fight a clearly superior team. res is really only an in battle kind of thing, used by non monks.

but dont be discouraged, you learn from your mistakes. see what would happen if you never used rebirth, and hence never figured out it was a bad idea, you would have used it when you were in a good team and totally messed them up. better to learn sooner rather than later

Scaphism · Aug 23, 2005, 01:42 AM // 01:42

If you weren't so quick to try and contradict me you might have caught some of what I said.

Good teams don't let you get away. Good teams are sometimes forced to let the last target get away because a bad team engages them before the fight is over, AND lets the last target get away.

We've lost due to that before- the guy who got away rezzed his entire team and they wiped both us and the third team out- after we'd beaten them 1v1 before. I've rarely laughed as hard, or as bitterly.

However, you missed the entire point of these posts. The difference between Rebirth and Restore Life is irrelevant in that situation. I don't know how to explain it any more clearly. You either have abundant time to get off your hard rez, in which case you're playing against at least one idiotic team, or you're about to die. In neither case will a monk be the last one left alive (or see point A again- you're playing against idiots), and monks shouldn't be carrying rez skills.

If you didn't follow any of that, feel free to ask about it. Otherwise you end up claiming Rebirth is a good skill in PVP.

White Designs · Aug 23, 2005, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morganas

Sheesh, just because you have a res doesn't mean you use it in battle. Rebirth is obviously not a combat res, no one in their right mind would cast it in battle.

A non-combat res has no business being anywhere on a team. Think about why res sig is good. In battle, although ideally no one dies, you must account for spikes of damage or slightly slower reflexes, etc. So you res someone quickly and hope to recover. Out of battle, who cares? If you're the last person running away, and even if you do manage to res your entire team, its rather likely that you will simply get beat up again if you lost originally. The only situation where it could possibly matter is if you got double-teamed, yet managed to escape...a very sketchy situation.

smurfhunter · Aug 23, 2005, 01:59 AM // 01:59

man were all beating up on the original poster. thats not nice