Curse

Eonwe · Nov 03, 2005, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esuna

I'm not trying to be an elitist because honestly, I only play casters - never a warrior or a ranger, so I can't claim to give "expert" advice on the matter.

The words "elitist" and "pve" don't exactly mix.

Epinephrine · Nov 03, 2005, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

"Tanks are for taking hits so casters can do the 'real' damage."

The way I formulate any tank build involves a W/X with the power to nuke just as good as or if not, better than any caster.

So you don't understand what a tank is?

Quote:

Under Flurry, a Mark of Pained victim in the middle of a gigantic mob [which the warrior smartly aggroed] will suffer 30dps armor ignoring damage for 30s. If you do it right, and the enemy just won't go down, you're dealing 900 damage before Mark of Pain runs out [if you spam flurry]

Hmm, and if you do your job and sit there and flail away MY mark of Pain will do 52 (or54) DPS on everyone. Because I'm a caster. I'm aware that a warrior can do damage, but leave the MoP to a real necro, with 16 curses, awaken the blood and a +1/20% Curses staff for example.

Quote:

Formulate a tank that can nuke as well as take hits and I'm certain your team will like you that much more...

Not if it weakens his defense - I want him to use the least resources possible to keep him alive so I can have an extra nuker in the party. If you are a good tank I need fewer healers for you, and I can do more nuking/cursing for example. Mark of Pain is a great spell, but your attributes would be better spent beefing up your defenses so the monk isn't depleted keeping up with the damage on you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eonwe

The words "elitist" and "pve" don't exactly mix.

Seems like a fine mix to me. There are elitist PvE players, though you have to PvE to meet them. Most of them sneer at collector's weapons, laugh at anything but 15k or FoW armours and boast about their green weapon collections. Note that "elitism" doesn't mean that they are elite, merely that they are snobby, and view themselves as members of a special (and more important) class.

Esuna · Nov 03, 2005, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Hey no malice intended in my post, so don't pick apart my words, heh? And I thought claiming not to be an elitist would ease some flame, guess not. Well everyone has a reason for posting things, and I thought I made clear what mine was. Here it is again:

Sometimes I play a healer/protection monk, and recently, I've been doing SF farming - usually I do PvP in TA since not much in PvE interests me anymore. I don't really know much about tanking... or what warriors/rangers do for their tanking but I do notice that something has gone wrong when the soft targets like the casters in the back start taking damage - the aggro'd mob is in 5 different spots, and we closed in from the back far enough from the tank. Of course it is not always attributed to the tank's fault... but in one situation, the guy just sits near the front mob while we all died, and he was the last one living, running around like a headless chicken...

Furthermore, I don't mean to say the tanks don't or shouldn't do damage. But there's a tank should first and foremost, tank, no? If you can't block enemies or attract their attention.. then how are you tanking, besides being the one with the uber armor and dying last?

Also a question about luring the melee to the ranged monsters... if that is not a good thing to do, then how will those who deal AoE damage determine where to land their spells? Not only "nukers" but other AoE spells like spiteful spirit, chaos storm, mark of pain, etc? I have never done tanking before, but perhaps the tank can strafe towards and around the mob to re-block the path to the soft targets? I want to know, when I can spare a slot to make my W/R or R/W to unlock skills

striderkaaru · Nov 03, 2005, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esuna

Also a question about luring the melee to the ranged monsters... if that is not a good thing to do, then how will those who deal AoE damage determine where to land their spells? Not only "nukers" but other AoE spells like spiteful spirit, chaos storm, mark of pain, etc? I have never done tanking before, but perhaps the tank can strafe towards and around the mob to re-block the path to the soft targets? I want to know, when I can spare a slot to make my W/R or R/W to unlock skills

just offering some feedback.

being able to nuke everything at once is an ideal solution. if the melee are close enough to the ranged, then this is definitely possible. however, in most cases, it's not such a good thing to do because you run the risk of losing the melee aggro.

as racthoh mentioned, take the group out in parts. i say nuke their soft targets first while the tank holds the melee. or you could nuke the melee first. whatever the group decides.

in terms of the situation gone wrong that you described, you could have been hit in the back by a random patrol. there's a chance that the tank did the right thing by staying put. if he moved, he would have risked bringing over everything that he initially aggroed to the casters. casters have to realize how to move around when something goes wrong. it's been mentioned in other places before, but in order for the tank to do his job right, the rest of the team has to know what to do as well. you can't expect a warrior to run around and magically get aggro.

jesh · Nov 05, 2005, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

So you don't understand what a tank is?

I think you must be really new to these forums.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Hmm, and if you do your job and sit there and flail away MY mark of Pain will do 52 (or54) DPS on everyone. Because I'm a caster. I'm aware that a warrior can do damage, but leave the MoP to a real necro, with 16 curses, awaken the blood and a +1/20% Curses staff for example.

I have never seen a necro in PvE use mark of pain except my brother, and myself. If Yukito calls targets as he should, the necro can MoP something else and it would just be additional damage. That's called working together.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Not if it weakens his defense - I want him to use the least resources possible to keep him alive so I can have an extra nuker in the party. If you are a good tank I need fewer healers for you, and I can do more nuking/cursing for example. Mark of Pain is a great spell, but your attributes would be better spent beefing up your defenses so the monk isn't depleted keeping up with the damage on you.

Surprisingly, not all tanks use 14/16 tactics. I don't know where the hell else you would put your attributes if you wanted to tank. If you haven't noticed, the curses line has something called ENFEEBLING BLOOD. I think you would realize this if you play a necro as you claim to do. Curses necros aren't exactly super common, and using enfeebling blood is effectively giving the tank more armor. 80% less damage. There are other skills that a w/n can use as well in the curses line as well, quite benificially.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Seems like a fine mix to me. There are elitist PvE players, though you have to PvE to meet them. Most of them sneer at collector's weapons, laugh at anything but 15k or FoW armours and boast about their green weapon collections. Note that "elitism" doesn't mean that they are elite, merely that they are snobby, and view themselves as members of a special (and more important) class.

I don't know what this was supposed to mean. Green weapons aren't very good. The best weapons are still gold.

Think before you post.

Epinephrine · Nov 05, 2005, 03:10 AM // 03:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

I think you must be really new to these forums.
...
I have never seen a necro in PvE use mark of pain except my brother, and myself.

<--------
<-------- Sorry to have to burst your bubble, but look beside my post.
<--------

Hmm. My profile beside my post shows that I've been haunting this forum for 8 months now, with over 1000 posts, am a member of a previous Guild of the Week and have been playing my main toon as a necromancer. I started on TGH months before that, and have played since October WPE, I unfortunately was on vacation for the E3 for everyone or I would've been on then. Believe it or not, I know something about the game, including tanking, and especially necromancers. I can't believe you never see necromancers using Mark of Pain, you either play with henchies a lot, avoid other necromancers or don't play much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

If Yukito calls targets as he should, the necro can MoP something else and it would just be additional damage. That's called working together.

I work together very well with my tank, but I expect him to his job too. There is room for negotiation in roles, but when someone says that they are a tank that is outdamaging others they have missed the point of being a tank.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

I don't know what this was supposed to mean. Green weapons aren't very good. The best weapons are still gold.

I was mocking the "leet" players who seem to think that anyone with a collector weapon is a "noob"

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

Think before you post.

Do some research before you spout off.
I am not a new player, I know the skill list and I know how to play with a tank, and what makes a good tank, there are several in my guild.

Anyone who says that they are a tank aiming to deal damage is not taking tanking seriously. They may be tanking, thanks largely to a warriors natural armour and the efforts of their team, but that's not a "tanking" build.

Look at what he said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

The way I formulate any tank build involves a W/X with the power to nuke just as good as or if not, better than any caster.

That's patently absurd. Casters will do more damage with those spells, and diverting those points into curses isn't necessarily the best use of his energy or time. Anyone who posts that way is trying to brag, and it isn't a good one. He may well not need to be a very good tank, since he has good support, but if you are looking for real tanking you don't want him burning energy and attribute points on skills that don't contribute to survival, or can be provided better by another player. I'm not saying that it can't work; dropping the enemies faster helps the tank survive, but the claim that he can out nuke a nukler as a tank is just wrong.

jesh · Nov 05, 2005, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

<-------- Sorry to have to burst your bubble, but look beside my post.

I wasn't reffering to your post count. I was reffering to the fact that you must have never seen any of Yukito's builds, or you'd know he's not bragging or running at the mouth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

I can't believe you never see necromancers using Mark of Pain, you either play with henchies a lot, avoid other necromancers or don't play much.

Most necros that I end up with use minions or blood. Curses is definitely a rarity, even among necros, which are a minority among players. Like I said, me and my brother. As for not playing much, I've been on a 1800 hours now, and there's no afk time either. I'm on dial up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

I work together very well with my tank, but I expect him to his job too. There is room for negotiation in roles, but when someone says that they are a tank that is outdamaging others they have missed the point of being a tank.

This observation of his is more based on how elementalists think it's alright to spam flare, and the average PvE tank takes mending and sprint. It's not hard to outdamage people like that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Anyone who says that they are a tank aiming to deal damage is not taking tanking seriously. They may be tanking, thanks largely to a warriors natural armour and the efforts of their team, but that's not a "tanking" build.

You know what, just go here. Look at some of the builds that Yukito has posted in the past. I hope one thing will pop out at you quickly: He uses curses for a warrior skill called Victory Is Mine. Do you know what that does? Do you know what Enfeebling Blood does? Throwing in Mark of Pain on top of that hardly seems like a waste of attribute points.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

That's patently absurd. Casters will do more damage with those spells, and diverting those points into curses isn't necessarily the best use of his energy or time. Anyone who posts that way is trying to brag, and it isn't a good one. He may well not need to be a very good tank, since he has good support, but if you are looking for real tanking you don't want him burning energy and attribute points on skills that don't contribute to survival, or can be provided better by another player. I'm not saying that it can't work; dropping the enemies faster helps the tank survive, but the claim that he can out nuke a nukler as a tank is just wrong.

You never replied with what he would be better off spending points in. There's not that much of a difference between 10 and 13 tactics.

LightningHell · Nov 05, 2005, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

This observation of his is more based on how elementalists think it's alright to spam flare, and the average PvE tank takes mending and sprint. It's not hard to outdamage people like that.

Sorry, some elementalists (about 35%, including me) don't think spamming flare is a "good" strategy. I'm just pointing something out, I'm not disagreeing with you.

Mark of Pain and Enfeebling Blood are decent additions to a warrior.

I use a Ranger as a tank :P

Racthoh · Nov 05, 2005, 04:38 AM // 04:38

Enfeebling blood is all and good for reducing the damage from mobs that attack, just happen to be realatively close together, AND there isn't anything around that will interrupt this 2 second spell. Or, I can throw on Dolyak Signet which makes every melee enemy outside of an aatxe do next to nothing if not 0 damage, plus reduces the damage from spells which is really where a warrior needs to worry about damage reduction. If you're combining the two it does seem like a waste of attribute points since Watch Yourself would once again reduce the damage from both spell and attack, and regardless of secondary it is available to your warrior. Enfeebling Blood won't help me much against casters, and they're the only reason I ever fall.

If it is used for the sole purpose of triggering ViM, I would question the 15 second recharge. Given the fact that the attribute distribution at this point is curse, weapon of choice, tactics, and I would assume strength because Dolyak Signet is far too good to pass up IMO, I'm curious as to how enough enemies are gathered to be hit by the enfeebling blood to begin with. Also, that tactics is a high enough level to be able to provide enough health through ViM to survive.

Basically, I'm not sure how you do it Yukito, but it seems to work for you.

If you're using a sword, there is a difference between 10 tactics and 13 tactics. Riposte and Deadly Riposte. Applying them to block skills like gash, crushing blow, and dismember makes a world of difference.

Epinephrine · Nov 05, 2005, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Look, I'm not going to argue with you forever. His build might be fine for you, but his claim and statement were wrong. Any nuker worth his salt is doing more damage than the tank is. Trying too hard to make a tank deal damage reduces effectiveness, end of story. The prevalent attitude that tanks must be out there dishng out hits is what gets the whole Wa/Mo population in trouble in the first place - if you could go with no weapons and deal no damage at all but keep every enemies' attention on you I'd rather that than a guy who deals damage but doesn't draw aggro well or dies too fast. Tanking is about tanking.

I have no beefs with the curse line - I play a curse necro (well, actually I play every necro, but a rpreference for curses), and a N/W with curses in PvP sometimes (on a few builds), and have a W/N character too, on my second account. Using enfeebling blood is good - it's a tanking skill; Shadow of Fear would be another good addition to the lineup. I used a W/Me tank who has sympathetic visage as a skill, it works wonderfully - people forget about these amazing skills, it's true. ViM healing and energy regen are staples and Enfeebling Blood is as good a way as any to set up a condition.

Nonetheless, I think posting that you outdamage nukers is just wrong, and encouraging players to try to build nuker-tanks is probably why we have so many lousy tanks in the first place - they all want to see big numbers popping up, but they don't bother with defending themselves. Yukito may have good builds (it didn't open link) but I still disagree with his statement, and stand by the fact that a good tank is concerned more about minimising damage and preventing strain on the healers than dealing damage. If he was simply referring to outdamaging crappy players, fine - that's easily done; I play mostly in guild parties, and we don't tend to have any problems with damage output from the damage team.

Funkinmofo · Nov 05, 2005, 06:21 AM // 06:21

To tell the truth I mostly farm alone these days, but when i get a whisper or a pm from Divine Gal or Savio for a group I jump at the chance.
He is an amazing puller/aggro'r. I rarely ever want to play my Ele, but I will load him up in a heartbeat only because the times I group with Savio/Divine Gal, et al. It is always productive and fun as hell.

Still remember the time he singled out and pulled a monk boss out of a mass of about 20 dredge, just for the hell of it

jesh · Nov 05, 2005, 06:24 AM // 06:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Sorry, some elementalists (about 35%, including me) don't think spamming flare is a "good" strategy. I'm just pointing something out, I'm not disagreeing with you.

Mark of Pain and Enfeebling Blood are decent additions to a warrior.

I use a Ranger as a tank :P

I'm so sorry, I should have put "most" in there somewhere.

I know there are some eles that know what they're doing.. but they're just as rare as any other people that know what they're doing.

As for the tanking ranger, that's all well and good unless you're facing a mob that spams wild blow. That's why I prefer not using stances on my warrior for defensive purposes.. I more go along with what Racthoh said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Enfeebling blood is all and good for reducing the damage from mobs that attack, just happen to be realatively close together, AND there isn't anything around that will interrupt this 2 second spell.

(wary stance, riposte, deadly riposte, etc)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Or, I can throw on Dolyak Signet which makes every melee enemy outside of an aatxe do next to nothing if not 0 damage, plus reduces the damage from spells which is really where a warrior needs to worry about damage reduction. If you're combining the two it does seem like a waste of attribute points since Watch Yourself would once again reduce the damage from both spell and attack, and regardless of secondary it is available to your warrior. Enfeebling Blood won't help me much against casters, and they're the only reason I ever fall.

If it is used for the sole purpose of triggering ViM, I would question the 15 second recharge. Given the fact that the attribute distribution at this point is curse, weapon of choice, tactics, and I would assume strength because Dolyak Signet is far too good to pass up IMO, I'm curious as to how enough enemies are gathered to be hit by the enfeebling blood to begin with. Also, that tactics is a high enough level to be able to provide enough health through ViM to survive.

Basically, I'm not sure how you do it Yukito, but it seems to work for you.

Defy Pain, Watch Yourself and Dolyak Signet are now pretty much staples on my bar for tanking. I don't use anything but minor runes.. so I miss out on 2 seconds for the Dolyak Signet. I think the rediculous amounts of hp make up for it though.. I also love to carry Enfeebling Blood and Mark of Pain, I have 9 in curses. Unlike Yukito though, I use only Bonetti's Defence for energy gain, and Enfeebling Blood is mostly to support teammates who think they're tanks.

I've tried the ViM+Blood combo before, and it is possible, and simply amazing when you use it right. I love how I get more hp than my max when I.. *shuts mouth* It is a lot more situation than most builds, and takes a skilled player, but I can personally vouch that it works.

Epinephrine, you're right about the caster/tank thing, I was never disagreeing with you. However, I find that adding a skill to my bar like Mark of Pain can definitely turn the tide of battle, and it comes at no loss to me, seeing how I've maxed my strength, which is where I get my defense from, and adding points to tactics does just about nothing for me. So I dump 9 in curses, and I can contribute more by supporting my party, both damage dealing and prevention wise. I have 3+1 in my weapon attribute, by the way. How's that for dedication?

:EDIT: Oh, by the way Racthoh, the part that matters to me about deadly/riposte is the blocking. The damage is what's raised by tactics, and if you don't care about that... then it kind of loses sweetness after a while. Max tactics is nice for stance tanks, but I have my own reasons for not doing that.

Manfred · Nov 05, 2005, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Mop is not a skill I would want to be casting as a tank with its 2 second cast time unless I was covered by a stance. Enffebling blood, same thing, it's way happier to either keep fast skills or to grab one defensive stance to cast your couple of opening spells under.

jesh · Nov 05, 2005, 08:20 PM // 20:20

They're both *spells*. Meaning they have spell range. So cast them at a range! Or you can use a stance to cover yourself, or deadly riposte/riposte. I never said you'd run up to a mob and try to cast point blank with no cover.

You can also do other things, like throw up decoys to attract the interruptions from a mob, before you cast the spell you really need. Then you don't even really need cover.

Racthoh · Nov 05, 2005, 09:32 PM // 21:32

I refuse to have any enchantments cast on my warrior. A shatter enchantment almost steals 1/4 of my health (in the later areas of the game) and obviously if I brought any enchantment (or if a monk cast it on you) they're banking on that spell to aid you in some way. Well, nothing worse than not even being at the mob yet and already close to 75% health.

Enfeebling Blood again can be cast before the mobs recognize you, but in how many instances do patrols stay nice and close together? Again, unless they're melee mobs they aren't going to stay bunched up on your tank. Wary Stance seems like a complete waste of a slot if it's sole purpose is to prevent an interrupt consider the ugly recharge on that skill. Also it won't do much good against Cry of Frustration for example, or any knockdown spell (unless you bring along Balanced Stance or Dolyak Signet). Plus the weakness won't last for 60 seconds while you're attempting another cast on Enfeebling Blood. Also given in that time any mobs using Disrupting Chop will have built the adrenaline to use it. In which case, you need to rely on Shield Bash, Riposte, and Deadly Riposte to ensure the spell goes through considering the number of times from my own experience I've had a Savage Slash hit my one second spell while I had a 75% blocking stance up.

Okay... prehaps that situation is far too limited to say Mountin Trolls and Stone Summit Carvers, but still a Wary Stance would be the only way to stop a Distracting Shot from one of numerous enemies that use it religiously.

jesh · Nov 05, 2005, 09:50 PM // 21:50

What you say makes sense, but I've never had problems using those spells. *shrug*
Maybe w/n get interrupted less.

Anyway, if you've read my other posts, you'd know I use Enfeebling Blood mainly as an aid to my teammates that are getting banged on, not for me. I'm quite comfortable with all the 0s, thanks.
Mark of Pain, it doesn't really matter when you cast it, I've done it in almost every situation imaginable. The recharge time gets to you when it does get interrupted, but I'd say my odds are 9/10 it won't, even if I'm not using cover. Maybe the interrupts go to the real casters. As for Wary Stance being a waste of a slot, I could easily throw that in instead of Bonetti's on my build... I rarely use it anyway.

LightningHell · Nov 06, 2005, 07:28 AM // 07:28

In PvE, warriors should try attracting everyone (enemy) in the vicnity to him, then let the nukers (or damage dealers, in any case) do the job. Of course, you can still dish out a little damage on your own.
It's impossible to get anybody to focus on the Warr. in PvP, unless your opponent's a total idiot. There's some kind of magnetism that a Monk makes. (lol)

malus · Nov 06, 2005, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Yea Hi now i play mainly support char (nec/monk monk/mes) but i do have a wa/ranger and it is very hard to block ppl i mean i give my upest respect to those who can aggro all the enemys mobs as well but i do get most frustrated when you get a tank run ahead when all his caster have no energy

Battle Torn · Nov 07, 2005, 02:32 PM // 14:32

A good tank is all about survivability no matter how you look at it and the best are usualy W/Mo as they can self sustain while attacking. I would call a high damage build a berserker build as they kill quickly but depend on how good the monk is to be effective for long. Therefore I dont usualy think of any other build other than W/Mo being a true tank it just isnt possible without that precious healing support.

Racthoh · Nov 07, 2005, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battle Torn

A good tank is all about survivability no matter how you look at it and the best are usualy W/Mo as they can self sustain while attacking. I would call a high damage build a berserker build as they kill quickly but depend on how good the monk is to be effective for long. Therefore I dont usualy think of any other build other than W/Mo being a true tank it just isnt possible without that precious healing support.

I'm not sure I would consider this the viewpoint of some players. Generally the large population of warriors have that secondary of monk and immediately have the same thought. This is some sword swinging warrior with mending and healing hands. Some of the worst warriors I have seen are w/mo as they generally have that mentality of being invincible, and are rather arrogant. I prefer to play with someone who is more party friendly, and doesn't whine when they aren't revived immediately after their after, or complain when they don't get healed.

The healing support provided by the monk class is lacking, and some people will tell you that healing prayers just aren't the same without divine favor. Also when you look at the available healing spells that can target the self, the best being healing touch, it needs that divine favor to provide maximum potential. Healing Breeze requires 10 seconds to get it's full potential, and it doesn't take that long for a mob to drop some warriors. Orison? Looking at a maximum of 60 health and any warrior with maxed healing prayers needs to remember their place. The keyword here is support, as a warrior has tools to keep him/herself alive.