Curse

Warskull · Feb 22, 2006, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Yeah I meant Rend Enchantment.

Rend is better than Strip/Chillblains in this case because Rend strips more than 1 enchantment and IW mesmers usually have at least a cover enchantment (e.g. Channeling, SV, or Illusion of Haste)

Alternatively just cast well of profane, if there is a corpse, and stand inside it.

NO!

Well of the profane costs 25 energy, it is more of an altar map skill for tombs. Rend has a 2s cast time and is overkill. Chilblains is 25 energy and no good for removing a single enchantment.

Just take drain enchantment if you are worried about IW and it will be fine. That or kite the fool.

DarkSpirit · Feb 22, 2006, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheel

Otherwise, just kite their face off.

And pray they are not smart enough to use imagined burden too.

art_ · Feb 22, 2006, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheel

It's not that big of a deal once the battle gets going because I can maintain Veil on someone who's getting hexed at and remove it easily, but that's too much of a hassle when most of the time I'm the target getting hexed and attacked by Warriors.

I think your team loses to any half-decent curses necro if it has a couple of warrior/rangers on it. Without hex removal you are looking at skills like SS dominating you. Backfire isnt so much a problem, because either people notice it and stop casting or they are dead before u can really do much about it, but SS is either death to your team or total shutdown if you dont bring hex removal.

Obviously decent necros cover their hexes, but its always beneficial to remove that life transfer that newbie necro A casts on the first person to come near him at the start of the battle.

DarkSpirit · Feb 22, 2006, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by art_

Obviously decent necros cover their hexes,

Yes, parasitic bond is a favorite cover hex there.

Monks can always go around backfire by using signet of devotion to heal, which is not affected by backfire at all.

wheel · Feb 22, 2006, 05:25 AM // 05:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

And pray they are not smart enough to use imagined burden too.

That's what Divine Boon + Contemplation of Purity is for, hex removal. Imagined Burden has a nasty recharge time of 30 seconds. Believe me, IW mesmers do so little damage to me it's not even on the radar.

wheel · Feb 22, 2006, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by art_

I think your team loses to any half-decent curses necro if it has a couple of warrior/rangers on it. Without hex removal you are looking at skills like SS dominating you. Backfire isnt so much a problem, because either people notice it and stop casting or they are dead before u can really do much about it, but SS is either death to your team or total shutdown if you dont bring hex removal.

Obviously decent necros cover their hexes, but its always beneficial to remove that life transfer that newbie necro A casts on the first person to come near him at the start of the battle.

I can't trust warriors to communicate to me that they have SS on them before that the cover hex hits so that I can remove the hex in time. It's just a losing proposition. As far as backfire, CoP=GG. SS is shutdown, yes. Hex removal won't help because the hexes are covered so quickly. It's not really useful to remove a Life Transfer because it's not a disabling hex at all. You waste your Holy Veil on something that doesn't matter. Other-ally hex removal in Random Arena is not a necessity as a monk, at all. My resources are better spent keeping myself and my teammates alive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Monks can always go around backfire by using signet of devotion to heal, which is not affected by backfire at all.

CoP owns backfire.

art_ · Feb 22, 2006, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheel

I can't trust warriors to communicate to me that they have SS on them before that the cover hex hits so that I can remove the hex in time. It's just a losing proposition. As far as backfire, CoP=GG. SS is shutdown, yes. Hex removal won't help because the hexes are covered so quickly. It's not really useful to remove a Life Transfer because it's not a disabling hex at all. You waste your Holy Veil on something that doesn't matter. Other-ally hex removal in Random Arena is not a necessity as a monk, at all. My resources are better spent keeping myself and my teammates alive.
CoP owns backfire.

OK, that makes sense. But in random arenas can you really trust the warriors not to kill themselves with SS? If i see an SS necro i ping it like a million times and more often than not im completely ignored by the generic CA warrior. Also you can precast veil on the warrior(s) to remove it extra quickly. Add to this the fact that by no means all necros cover their hexes properly in CA and Hex Removal sounds tasty, even if it isnt always possible (when you come up against a good necro.)

About life transfer, it may not be directly disabling but when people see their health degenning at that speed the normal reaction is to kite or self-heal which obviously limits their input on the game.

Warskull · Feb 22, 2006, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Really veil in RA is a matter of personal preference. CoP+Boon is plenty to keep any and all hexes off your character. Veil is undoubtly a good skill. The problem is often times your allies simply aren't worth removing hexes from. That braindead warrior who attacks through spiteful spirit probably isn't very useful while he is alive anyway. I like veil for its general utility.

glountz · Feb 22, 2006, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Don't forget CoP affect yourself and that's all. A SSed warrior/IW if he stops maintaining pressure on enemy monk/necro then you can say goodbye to your victory as a team. In 4v4, having your two warriors/IW SSed means defeat for sure if you are unable to remove it, wether they attack or not. If they sit back, you can say goodbye to your pressure and damage dealing so ennemy team will have plenty of time to kill you, if they attack you're done as they will kill themselves. A good way to do generally is to split the two warriors so they cannot kill each other with SS but only damage themselves, and then attack time to time while healing themselves. Asking for them to sit back and stop their pressure, whatever you're saying, means sure defeat for your team. Unless you are capable to kill a whole ennemy team being only a Boon prot CoP monk, that is.
However, the big answer to IW is Drain Enchant and Cripple/kiting. SS works also very well, as they will use Flurry so they will kill themselves in a matter of seconds, if they forgetted to bring the ultimate Hex removal for a mesmer: shatter hex (and being Illusion it is almost always the case). So yes SS owns IW pretty well in most cases, more than Warriors due to HoD helm.
Beeing a monk, you will have hard time except by kiting to stop an IW guy from acting.

wheel · Feb 23, 2006, 06:08 AM // 06:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Being a monk, you will have hard time except by kiting to stop an IW guy from acting.

I realize that CoP affects me. It really is a matter of preference as to whether you want to bring CoP or not. I choose not to.

As a monk, I do bring bring Drain Enchantment (look at the first page for my build). It's not hard to sit on his face once every 40 seconds and drain his enchantment. You're saving yourself a lot of healing plus giving yourself 8 energy. It's a win-win.

max gladius · Feb 24, 2006, 04:54 AM // 04:54

The big thing with IW build is that they r very powerful against many builds, can with slight modifications can easily take down other builds that are against them... i know some ppl say they can own them, and r talking about backdoors, but thats how every build is.... there are no perfect builds, the topic is what works best agains certain things... like protecting monks, wouldnt it suck to have ignorance and powerblock on you at the same time.... works well, all u can do is run around in circles till they both were off, so were talking 15 secs or so..... plenty of time to take all ur eng and kill some of the party...

Oh about the rip off the enchantment comments... if a mesmer is close enought to enemy to be interupted or striped before cover is up, then thats their fault....

wheel · Feb 24, 2006, 10:30 AM // 10:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by max gladius

The big thing with IW build is that they r very powerful against many builds

What builds are those?

Quote:

Originally Posted by max gladius

Oh about the rip off the enchantment comments... if a mesmer is close enought to enemy to be interupted or striped before cover is up, then thats their fault....

So the IW mesmer is supposed to get out of cast range before he enchants himself, then go into battle? Yay, more time wasted for him and more damate mitigated for me. I can prekite before he gets anywhere near me.

Warskull · Feb 24, 2006, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by max gladius

The big thing with IW build is that they r very powerful against many builds, can with slight modifications can easily take down other builds that are against them... i know some ppl say they can own them, and r talking about backdoors, but thats how every build is.... there are no perfect builds, the topic is what works best agains certain things... like protecting monks, wouldnt it suck to have ignorance and powerblock on you at the same time.... works well, all u can do is run around in circles till they both were off, so were talking 15 secs or so..... plenty of time to take all ur eng and kill some of the party...

Oh about the rip off the enchantment comments... if a mesmer is close enought to enemy to be interupted or striped before cover is up, then thats their fault....

Yes, all builds can be countered. However IW can be countered without any skills at all. I just have to kite the IW mesmer. In addition a single drain enchant (which you should have anyway because it is awesome) defeats their build. IW is very easy to counter.

Numa Pompilius · Feb 24, 2006, 11:37 AM // 11:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheel

What builds are those?

Any build which has any kind of problem with wars. An IW mesmer does 40 points of armor-ignoring damage per swing, and he'll be bringing a snare, some attack-speed enhancer to increase damage output, plus of course distortion (meaning they're difficult for warriors to kill, because the other wars never get their adrenaline up).

When not functioning as an IW mesmer they've got enough slots left that they can do decent normal mesmer jobs, e.g. interrupting, backfire, shattering hexes & enchants.

IW mesmers aren't some sort of uber build, but it's a perfectly viable build in random arena, because they ARE annoying to deal with one-on-one if you've not got enchant removal.

glountz · Feb 24, 2006, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

and he'll be bringing a snare

Yes, that's where I don't really agree with all this "I have just to kite".
I did an IW mesmer but with my PVE Me/N. Didn't have any attack speed enhancement so my damage output was just correct.
However I used Illusion of Haste+Plague sending, and had never any kiting problem.

DarkSpirit · Feb 24, 2006, 03:55 PM // 15:55

I don't think "I just have to kite" because I have skill or I just use drain enchantment on him is a fit-all solution for this discussion.

I mean if you just have to kite, this thread wouldn't have existed in the first place unless the thread originator never thought of kite. Are you saying he just stood there like a dummy or that he doesnt have the "advanced" kite skill that you have?

My favorite IW build is from a competitor website which I am not allowed to post the link to. I use a R/Me build:

Illusionary Weaponry(E)
Illusion of Weakness
Tiger's Fury
Troll Onguent
Charm Animal
Call of Haste
Maiming Strike
Rez

Most people dont strip enchantments in RA but I can also switch to my wand, tiger fury away, and let my pet do the damage when my enchantment is stripped.

Two April Mornings · Feb 24, 2006, 04:06 PM // 16:06

just bring drain enchant as a mo/me mantra of recall boon prot

max gladius · Feb 24, 2006, 04:31 PM // 16:31

If the build was totaly useless, as some of you think, then why does it work so well? I love doing random as me/mo, change out my build between IW, anti monk, anti warrior, anti caster.... ppl keep seeing my name and think they know what to expect.....

And the dmg with 16 illusion is 42, and if u run a rockmolder as i do, u can get 44....

and when i was talking about out of range, i ment for inital casting on urself, odviously u cant just run out of a battle to re-enchant urself...

And i agree, they r not an uber build u can kill anything with... But 1 on 1 in an arena, i am very effective against most builds.... rangers r my worste to go 1 on 1 against, cause they can do good dmg while keeping me away from them...

Third Quarter · Feb 24, 2006, 06:08 PM // 18:08

As long as you don't waste energy, RoF spam destroys Illusionary Weaponry:

A single booned RoF completely negates about 6 strikes from IW: Divine Favour and Boon amount to about 120 health, plus another effective 80, as the next strike heals instead of doing damage.

wheel · Feb 24, 2006, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Yes, that's where I don't really agree with all this "I have just to kite".
I did an IW mesmer but with my PVE Me/N. Didn't have any attack speed enhancement so my damage output was just correct.
However I used Illusion of Haste+Plague sending, and had never any kiting problem.

That's becasue PvE mobs virtually never kite unless there's some sort of AoE affecting them. They just stand there while you bash their face in. I've seen IW builds that purportedly solo UW or portions of it. That, I'm not surprised at.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I don't think "I just have to kite" because I have skill or I just use drain enchantment on him is a fit-all solution for this discussion.

I mean if you just have to kite, this thread wouldn't have existed in the first place unless the thread originator never thought of kite. Are you saying he just stood there like a dummy or that he doesnt have the "advanced" kite skill that you have?

Very few people know how to kite very effectively. It's not an easy skill to master. Especially in GvG when you have all kinds of positional nuances to worry about, but in Random Arena it can still be difficult for some players. IW is an effective arena build, yes, because many players simply cannot kite well enough to avoid the damage, and becuase most players don't bring enchantment removal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by max gladius

If the build was totaly useless, as some of you think, then why does it work so well? I love doing random as me/mo, change out my build between IW, anti monk, anti warrior, anti caster.... ppl keep seeing my name and think they know what to expect.....

And the dmg with 16 illusion is 42, and if u run a rockmolder as i do, u can get 44....

and when i was talking about out of range, i ment for inital casting on urself, odviously u cant just run out of a battle to re-enchant urself...

And i agree, they r not an uber build u can kill anything with... But 1 on 1 in an arena, i am very effective against most builds.... rangers r my worste to go 1 on 1 against, cause they can do good dmg while keeping me away from them...

The reason that IW works in arena is that most players are not very good, and there is little coordination within the teams is less than stellar. There will always be one enemy that the IW mesmer can absolutely own because they don't know how to kite. It's very effective against stupid players, and you can usually count on at least 1-2 stupid players on the other team. That said, it is a poor competitive build because of its disgusting recharge. I am much more afraid of a good Gale warrior or a Dom mesmer than IW. IW isn't even on the radar.

On the whole thing of cover enchantments, like I said, You'll have IW drained before you have a time to put up a cover enchantment if you face a good player.