Curse

Vindexus · Mar 09, 2006, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Why is that you never seen two monk backlines in HA? Is it because it simply isn't viable, or is it because HA players just aren't all that good? In my opinion, you can fit A LOT of damage mitigation on 6 offensive characters, and most definetely some off monk heal parties, probably even some Aegis's. Has anyone besides iQ ever tried a two monk backline in HA? I was thinking a 6/2 hex build with two monks.

DarkCloud · Mar 09, 2006, 06:51 PM // 18:51

I think one of the reasons why people run three monk backline is for the holding potential. When you go into HA u dont run split to split damage, you dont run defense in your offense such as heal sig, distortion, and etc. And you also have to babysit a ghost that generally follows you. Running 2 monk backlines might not be necessarily a bad thing, I would love to see back in the old days when everyone ran 2 monk backlines. But, with the current HoH settings, I think you need 3 monks if u want to hold.

art_ · Mar 09, 2006, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Maybe because you inevitably will face IWAY against which a strong defense is nice.

icemonkey · Mar 09, 2006, 07:03 PM // 19:03

you ahve to hold off against 2 teams at once to win that requires 3 monks. Besides hteres no "battle lines" in HA like in GvG so everyone is vulnerable to a full front assault form the other team and 3 monks pretty much nescessary. In fact a lot of the builds that hold halls for a long time are very defensive teams, like 7 peopel with healing skills

Vindexus · Mar 09, 2006, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by art_

Maybe because you inevitably will face IWAY against which a strong defense is nice.

Defence != Monks.

I was thinking like a Water ele with Heal Party, Migraine mesmers with Aegis, a necro with Heal Party and warrior debuffs, a Warrior, and I couldn't decide for the last hexer. I was thinking of stealing Duck's smiting Mo/E or running a Scourge Healing Mo/N with Siphon and OoB.

JR · Mar 09, 2006, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkCloud

I think one of the reasons why people run three monk backline is for the holding potential.

Nail on head, imo.

Whilst other characters in your build can help mitigate damage, for a build that wants to realisticly hold I think you really need a three monk backline. I have little or no doubt that on the way too halls a good two monk backline could probably outperform a good three monk backline. Once you get there, that is the problem.

Also due to the nature of HA, positioning is far less of a factor. So relying partly on your monks being 'backline' characters for their defense is not such a great idea, thus you run three monks.

Calin Metallic · Mar 09, 2006, 08:59 PM // 20:59

I would say that 3 monk backlines would be more common since HA is almost entirley close-up combat. Unlike GvG when you can make a retreat and wait for your monks to rez (after you use your signets), but in HA the DPS is so much higher because its a non-stop fight in a map maybe half the size of a GvG map and the fight only ends once one side is wiped. Sometimes your versing multiple opponents also, again leading ot massive DPS. Aslo the fact that there is more chance of holding HoH with 3 monks rather than 2 , as previous posters pointed out.

Thats my view on it.

~Calin

Vindexus · Mar 09, 2006, 11:25 PM // 23:25

So from what I can gather, you run 3 monks to keep the Ghostly up, not to keep your team up.

Mr Fizzle · Mar 09, 2006, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Actully my guild has

and it worked pretty well we got to Hall of Hero's but lost against a IWAY.We did this after the update since they were less IWAY's around.You basically gotta have A Sb/healer and a SoD prot then have everyone else have a monk skill.As in our E/Mo had heal other and heal party.
Our N/Mo had Marty.It was REAL weak against e denial since we were spiking
rather than spliting on monks.

glenn_rolfe · Mar 10, 2006, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

So from what I can gather, you run 3 monks to keep the Ghostly up, not to keep your team up.

GvG front on fights are really 7v7. And many teams carry 2 monks with support monking, like heal party spam, convert hexes, etc to ease the load off monks and give support if they are being shut down or restricted.

Tombs is 8v8 (+ghost). Do the numbers, You get to 3 monks.

Try and hold without it. You won't.

Vindexus · Mar 10, 2006, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenn_rolfe

GvG front on fights are really 7v7. And many teams carry 2 monks with support monking, like heal party spam, convert hexes, etc to ease the load off monks and give support if they are being shut down or restricted.

That's exactly what I'm proposing to do in tombs. I'm not suggesting just running 6 offensive characters who's only goal is damage, I'm talking about 6 offensive characters with defensive capabilities, such as Wards, hexes, snares, interupts, hex removal, and heal parties.

Tombs is 8v8 (+ghost). Do the numbers, You get to 3 monks.[/quote]

Actually, I get to 8 players per team.

Quote:

Try and hold without it. You won't.

And is that because

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

you run 3 monks to keep the Ghostly up, not to keep your team up.

njay · Mar 10, 2006, 07:48 AM // 07:48

My guild always runs a 2 monk backline (if you can call it a backline) in HA. Basically we split the damage mitigation across a few of the offensive characters much like Vind was proposing. Currently we have an air utility elementalist with blind/heal party and a warder who carries Shield of Deflection* or Healing Hands*. We've had a lot of success with it even though it is just our GvG build with some tweaks for HA. Even managed to hold halls a couple times with only 2 monks (well not really hold, we let them kill our ghost and then recapped).

ayanaftw · Mar 10, 2006, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

So from what I can gather, you run 3 monks to keep the Ghostly up, not to keep your team up.

umm way to twist words.
if ur so eager to run a 2 monk 'backline' in HA then do it and u'll see way u cant hold hoh.

BannyD · Mar 10, 2006, 06:25 PM // 18:25

ive ran two monk backline before..1 boon prot and 1 WoH monk. With that kind of setup you need to have your offensives split their skills with defense as was said...for me...i chose to run a trapper and other heavy/guarenteed condition builds, simply to fuel a very handy Victory is Mine. Sometimes I was able to get 60+ energy from ViM and a good 400 health or so..just make sure your trapper is on vent and is calling out when traps are being used.

i do want to try that build out more though and am thinking of running something like..

the 2 monks
1 trapper
1 Tainted necro
1 warder
1 fire nuker
2 warriors

lishi · Mar 10, 2006, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by BannyD

ive ran two monk backline before..1 boon prot and 1 WoH monk. With that kind of setup you need to have your offensives split their skills with defense as was said...for me...i chose to run a trapper and other heavy/guarenteed condition builds, simply to fuel a very handy Victory is Mine. Sometimes I was able to get 60+ energy from ViM and a good 400 health or so..just make sure your trapper is on vent and is calling out when traps are being used.

i do want to try that build out more though and am thinking of running something like..

the 2 monks
1 trapper
1 Tainted necro
1 warder
1 fire nuker
2 warriors

your build miss

1) spellbreaker , your ghost never gonna cap against a team who know how to interupt
2)a decent condition removal , ever condition team or even 1 team with a trapper gonna destroy you

the previus 2 lack also make the relic run very hard.

SaintGreg · Mar 10, 2006, 08:02 PM // 20:02

My guild has started to run a 2 monk build in HA with much better success than our older 3 monk builds. We are using an ether prodigy ward/heal party ele which is mostly defense though, so it sort of counts as 3 monks.

wheel · Mar 10, 2006, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Go watch The Wandering Wolves Jpn right now in HoH.

They were running an E/Mo guy with Party, N/Mo with Life Bond on both monks. They held for a few rounds. It's viable to run 2 monks, just not easy.

Joe Martin · Mar 10, 2006, 08:46 PM // 20:46

They lost, but they did hold their own just fine.

Ensign · Mar 10, 2006, 10:32 PM // 22:32

You need a stronger backline because there aren't battle lines, particularly in the hall. Everything is all mixed up, they're going to get hits in on your monks and you can't just pull back to defend yourself. Also there's no need to run flags, so they always get a full brunt offensive on you, instead of a usual 7v7.

You can run a 2-backline (well, elementalists might as well be monks given how they're run, but we'll ignore that for the moment) and have good matchups on a few maps (the 1v1s in particular) but you're at a distinct disadvantage on dais or relic maps, where being able to spread defenses around is much more valuable.

The hall in particular is a mess because offense is irrelevant once you've capped. Hence if you want to be a 'pro' HA guild your goal is to squeeze as much defense into your build as possible while still allowing you to take the hall with some regularity. Hence the popularity of all of the 7 monk + 1 fertile spammer builds, as long as you can spike out bad teams along the way and sneak your hero onto the dais, you're in good shape to hold indefinitely.

Peace,
-CxE