Curse

Jamaz · Mar 29, 2006, 03:41 PM // 15:41

I'm a very fresh player with only 4 weeks under my belt, but recently I've gotten into a lot of GvG and HA. Usually I play a warrior build, so my guild puts me in charge of calling targets and spiking on Teamspeak... which I've had no experience with outside of spacebar...

I know the basic countdown but picking out good targets in the heat of battle kind of overwhelms me. Usually I go for the monk, low armor caster, or overextended warrior and try to make it not-so-obvious but lots of time it's a lot more complex.

Like what if their monks have an almost unlimited supply of protection and healing? Or if I get black-outed, blinded, a ward is up, the player has started running away, or I lose my adrenaline do I call off the spike. There's just been one too many situations where I've tried to kill a caster by calling a spike and having it live through 3-4 attempts which could have been vital. I was just wondering if people could give advice and show tips for good opportunities for selecting targets; Kind of classic examples of what's a good move if you see a weakness to exploit or avoid.

JR · Mar 29, 2006, 04:10 PM // 16:10

There are a number of questions you might want to ask yourself when target calling:

- How far you will have to extend to reach them?
If your monks are going to have to move forward into a very risky position to heal you as you spike, then you may want to consider a closer target.

- How much are they bothering your team?
Is there a warrior in your backline bothering your monks? That's your next target. Even if your spike does fail, it will force them to kite back out towards their monks. Is there a mesmer giving your casters serious problems? That's another priority target, etc.

- Is your team ready?
It can take a while to get used to, but eventually you will subconciously remember the length of time it takes for your build/team to recover from spiking one person and be charged and ready to attack someone else. This is usually why the warrior with the longest adren build up will be the target caller; by the time they are ready to spike, so is everyone else.

The other issue here is has anyone involved in your spike been disabled through hexes, conditions, edenial etc.. If so, how long will that that take to clear up? How much damage does that person contribute to the spike? Is it worth just going ahead and trying a spike anyway?

If you are adren spiking with a 'balanced' build, then most of the time as a warrior your damage is crucial to the spike. If that is the case, then you should temporarily call off the spike if you or the other warrior aren't able to participate. Unless of course your build is front-loaded enough to still have the ability to drop people without you, but it doesn't sound like it.

- Do they have a very front-loaded build without much in the way of utility defense (wards/traps etc)?
You may consider playing very aggressively and attempting to drop one of their monks. (This also relates to the first point about extending, weighing up the risk vs benefit.)

- What is the DP of the target?
If they are already fairly DP'd, they will be easier to drop again. This not only forces to team to burn out their Resurrection Signets, but if you can DP someone out (particularly a monk or warrior) that is a huge blow to your opponent as long as you control morale.

How predictable is the target?
If you have just tried to spike someone down and failed, it is generally a good idea to move onto someone else instead of trying again. The monks will tend to be slightly more vigilant with the original target character.

Admittedly I normally play monk or flag runner, not warrior, so I may be a tad off on some things. I'm sure if I am Vindizzle will correct me.

icemonkey · Mar 29, 2006, 04:35 PM // 16:35

calling in HA and GvG are different, but there are a lot of similarities. I would also say that calling a adrenaline spike is the most difficult spike to call(unless you get rediculous with something). So don't get frustrated it takes time to get an inate feeling for the game. Also, the other team is not interested in you spiking them down so you will always have to deal with protected targets, kiting and wards. Practice will help you overcome these obsticles.
JR- is right on with his analysis, except that in HA some of those things do not apply, things like overextension dont really come up. Also in HA if you are up against a gimmik build or a build you know, their entire team might hinge off of one player and taking them down will totally gimp their offense. For instance spiking the orders necro against a ranger spike.

also if you try to spike something and they make it through or somehow your spike is inneffective it might be better to give up on that target for the time being and recharge for another spike. You can spike the same target again but jsut trying to maintain a constant attack against one guy gets pretty easy to heal.

moriz · Mar 29, 2006, 04:36 PM // 16:36

since we're talking about a spike build, you might also want to consider this:

if the target doesn't drop within 10-20 seconds, try another target.
if your spike was efficient and the target doesn't drop with 10-20 secs, it's usually means that the target could somehow minimize the damage from your spike, or that someone is protecting/healing him enough to hold off the spike. continuing to spike that target will simply be a waste of energy on your team. pick a softer target.

JR · Mar 29, 2006, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

since we're talking about a spike build, you might also want to consider this:

if the target doesn't drop within 10-20 seconds, try another target.
if your spike was efficient and the target doesn't drop with 10-20 secs, it's usually means that the target could somehow minimize the damage from your spike, or that someone is protecting/healing him enough to hold off the spike. continuing to spike that target will simply be a waste of energy on your team. pick a softer target.

I would say if the target doesn't drop within 5 seconds then they are already healed and protted up enough to make it useless to continue. At that point you may aswell just call to back off again. If you ARE still beating them down fairly well, then you can decide whether to push on and go for a kill, it's not generally the case though.

moriz · Mar 29, 2006, 04:47 PM // 16:47

yay, JR- agreed with me! at least in part.

anyways, in that situation, it might be a good idea to switch targets really fast and apply a few "partial" spikes on different targets. hopefully that will force the monk/protector to waste more energy and/or mess up his concentration.

Byron · Mar 29, 2006, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Admittedly I normally play monk or flag runner, not warrior, so I may be a tad off on some things.

Your points are very correct for Guild battles IMHO. I've had some extensive experience calling targets in HA, so I'll compose my own list here for that spectrum.

In order of priority:

<1. Will I die getting there?
Yes, you just might. So switch to the next-best target.

1. Designation and build of the team
With the amazing amount of specialization in HA, this should be the first thing on your mind. Since your concerned with calling targets, I'll assume that you play balanced builds. Typically, mesmers will call their targets to shut down, and you as the warrior will direct your damage on another target. The ele and/or ranger and/or additional warrior will probably follow your target. So, if the mesmer is shutting down the prot monk, that means the infuser is an easy target. If all the enemy monks are being shut down, hit the enemy mesmers, as monks seems less likely to sacrifice their own skins for an ally. This should become common sense after a while.

2. Softness
This counts for actual armor level, current health, as well as prots and bonds on the target. If you see a monk in judges armor and a prot spirit over his head, then he is a bad target at the moment. Switch targets often if need be, as the team can't protect everyone.

3.Position and composition
This depends on the organization of the enemy team as well as defensive measures. Look for players that have overextended from their monks' range, as well as softies who have ventured outside their wards.

4.Importance of target to enemy team
This is a big deal. Working in unsion with the first point, this should be your main concern against super-specialized builds like IWAY.
Against IWAY = spirits first, everytime. Without their spirits IWAY's power is halved. Your mesmers should be on the trappers, but if they aren't, and you have a warder, then they should be your first call. If you have no martyr, tainted gets second priority.
Against spikes = Bonder, depending on the build. If you have only 1 mesmer on your team, then you will have to call a spiker and help to interrupt spikes. Keep the enemy occupied with healing the bonder and they won't be able to spike much. Otherwise, take out the infuser, followed by spikers themselves.
Against balanced = Depends on the call of your mesmers, use softness point.

This is the basics, I'm afraid. The whole science of calling can only be learned through experience.

A few tips:
-Be mindful of the situation. When I'm calling, I rarely release the ctrl button. Tab-check for hurting enemies whenever possible. Seeing the status of enemy targets can be the difference in the battle.
-Switch targets as often as you need to. Good teams will kite and prot heavily, so you have to adapt. Don't continue to engage when it's not doing your team any good.
-Call your target every 10 seconds, even if its the same target. This keeps your teamates informed and active on the offense.
-Ask for help if you need it. Through vent, a quick typing, or with pinging.

Wasteland Squidget · Mar 29, 2006, 07:42 PM // 19:42

The above is some excellent advice on how to spike, though the other question that hasn't been as touched on is when to spike.

If you're running a build with a couple warriors that does adrenal spikes you probably don't want to be spiking with all of yours warriors all the time, since good monks will notice you're doing this and start pre-protting whenever you converge on a target. Instead, switch between spikes and applying pressure. Monks are a lot less capable of reacting to a spike if they're focused on keeping their team alive and getting off crucial heals to several different characters.

Typically as a caller I'll start off by applying some pressure and unloading adrenaline on different targets, then call a spike once we've beaten some energy out of their monks. This approach allows us to get a kill with the spike more often, since their monks aren't expecting it as much and even if they see it coming they'll still often use up all their energy protting their target. Once our mesmer shatters a few enchantments and our warriors don't let up we'll often still get the kill, and have drained their monks enough that the next few kills aren't nearly as difficult.

The other question is exactly how you want to call your spikes. Typical method is counting from 3 or 5, but we've been experimenting with use of the clock to time spikes. Our caller will say the time they want to spike (usually about 10-15 seconds from the current time) and call the target every few seconds up until then. The other characters on the team all know their roles in the spike and are watching the clock, so they can be where they need to be when the time comes. This approach accounts for Vent lag a little better and avoids issues where the caller has to constantly check with his team to see if they're ready for the spike.

tafy69 · Mar 30, 2006, 03:00 PM // 15:00

I have done a lot of adrenaline spike in GvG and yeah its hard, JR has put a lot of good points there for you.

I dont know about your team but I never countdown to a spike, Just tell your team to get ready to spike then find a target. "SPIKE THIS GUY! GOGO!".

If the target is a backline character then you gota tell your offence to push forward before the spike, making sure they are in casting range of the target.

The reason I dont countdown is because its just too slow, opertunities pass and the countdown doesnt help that much really when 2 warriors are involved.

Oh and target wise, I often try and spike a warrior (like every 1/3 spikes), as JR mentioned altho you may fail it will make them less agressive generally. and if you manage to kill the warrior just remember his number so you can try spike him again after a few spikes. A warrior with high DP is easy win.

JR · Mar 30, 2006, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by tafy69

The reason I dont countdown is because its just too slow, opertunities pass and the countdown doesnt help that much really when 2 warriors are involved.

We do countdown spikes if we have trouble dropping people easily. Compressing the damage dealt into a smaller time frame allows for fewer heals, and the count-down helps co-ordinate your team to get the most out of that. It also helps to make sure nobody goes too early and gives the target away.

The scariest example of this that I have seen, is iGi. They were/are running a build that spikes with two rangers and two warriors. Despite there being two melee characters in there, it was such a well coordinated spike that people were literally dropping in less than a second, to a massive amount of damage.

wheel · Mar 30, 2006, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Te is running a very nasty physical damage Orders spike right now as well. 2 Ranger spikers + 2 Hundred Blades/Protector's Strike Warriors. Nasty.

dansamy · Mar 30, 2006, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheel

Te is running a very nasty physical damage Orders spike right now as well. 2 Ranger spikers + 2 Hundred Blades/Protector's Strike Warriors. Nasty.

Things like this make me glad that I don't play infuse. Since we've switched to a 3 monk backline again, I get to play pure prot, which makes me perfectly happy.

Bazooka · Apr 07, 2006, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Once you get the basics of calling down and you find you actually like it, the next level is to become a student of popular builds. This knowledge will make the targets you call actually have an affect over and above killing more of the enemy before they can kill more of you.

Some builds rely heavily on coordination, killing a member of this coordination disrupts them.
Some builds rely heavily on a specific player for healing,buffing,defense..etc
Finding this "weak link" could mean a quick victory

Learning these nuances is the difference between "kill the monk" callers and the "damn i want that guy on my team" callers.

The cool part, theres yet even another level to target calling. When you get on a really good team of people you know and trust there is not just one target caller. These advanced players can use calling to coordinate a spike,indicate when someone is vulnerable,time the use of an ability/skill/spell .etc

But thats another story

3lite · Apr 07, 2006, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

The scariest example of this that I have seen, is iGi. They were/are running a build that spikes with two rangers and two warriors. Despite there being two melee characters in there, it was such a well coordinated spike that people were literally dropping in less than a second, to a massive amount of damage.

Could of sworn it was 1 war, 2 rangers but i could be wrong...but ne ways my guild runs a build like taht but with an orders nec...and i play the war...i will say taht inorder to spike u must have a countdown so taht it makes the spike almost unhealable

Elrodien · Apr 07, 2006, 03:49 PM // 15:49

My guild ran a 'mini' spike that used 1 axe war and 2 air eles. It worked very well too, but required a LOT of co-ordination and team work, and to honest, the build succeeded on the experience and knowledge of the W/E caller. Because we have quite an active guild, the caller changed from time to time and the lesser able guys (no offense!) tended to lose the gvg while the more experienced won them.

The morale of that story is, a good caller is vital for gvg. My advice to you would be to go to TA with your guild and practice calling there. Then you can move up to gvg when you are more comfortable with the idea of calling.

Timmeh · Apr 11, 2006, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Or you can just practise it in gvg. Who cares if you loose a few battles, as long as you come out of it stronger right?

As for calling, I found that calling on a caster is way easyer then on a warrior because you have to focus way less on the positioning etc. (casters dont wander of all that quick

)

As for calling:
- Go for squishies (=eles, mesmers, necro's, monks)
- If a warrior wanders off to far, kill him

- In a spike (or semi-spike) keep hitting the same target.
A person with 40%+ dp is more-or-less useless to a team, effectively knocking him out. Also, he dies faster, meaning the other team will use more res sigs, untill they run out

.

And just keep practising on counting down, positioning etc.

a cadet · Apr 11, 2006, 10:27 PM // 22:27

To me the hardest part of calling is managing to find the least uncomfortable way of hitting about 3 keys at once. I mean seriously, you have to hit the hotkey for Vent, then you have to hit ctrl-space to call the target, then you have to hit the hotkey for whatever skill you're using. And forget about using two hands; not only is that cheating but you would also need (physically) look around the map to see whos overextended or something.

Oh and you need to quickly transition from the awsd keys to the ctrl-space-3-shift, which was my set up i think.

I mean not that its impossible, its just that if you do it too long your left hand starts to unconsciously move around too much and it feels like you're typing in klingon (not to be racist).

Other than that, the trick is to make sure you have someone to blame for messed up spikes. Thats always a bonus.

But seriously, all you need to do is make sure your spike actually works (in more than one limiting case), and that your team is attentive and awake. Beyond that it gets too complicated with who you call, etc. My advice is sort out the basics before you start thinking too hard; usually if you think too much about strategy you tend to miss some key things like... talking on vent, or counting too fast, or accidentally rebooting while spiking... you get my point. I hope.

Farin · Apr 12, 2006, 02:09 AM // 02:09

I would say that's just a minor problem. I'm usually the one calling spikes when playing in GvG, I also am the warrior most of the times. It goes like this, Shift+Ctl+Spacebar for call, relase ctrl and Spacebar, shfit is my push-to-talk key. use my WASD to get close and start counting down, I move around a little and diguise the spike and once it reaches the imaginary 0 I spike. It's a little difficult at first but you get used to it.

My main are Warriors if the spike is strong enough, if not I'll usually go for mesmers or necros, monks if theyre close enough.