Curse

Siliconwafer · Jan 09, 2006, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Of course you can nerf IWAY. It was the same situation as smite, or air spike-just with a few different various positions to fill. The thing with a FOTM is that because it's easy to play, people can just play the positions of any FOTM.
IWAY is not the problem; it's more the tombs metagame.

So swing the bat. The swing it again when another FOTM becomes boring. And again...it's probably the only way to get people to run something different.

Former Ruling · Jan 09, 2006, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Nerfing everything that becomes popular will only repeat the cycle.

I say if it becomes a problem..make other stuff..better..never thought of that?

Siliconwafer · Jan 09, 2006, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Huh? Then that will repeat the cycle too, won't it? Making things more powerful? The builds based around the buffed skills would become FOTM.
I should have said "skill rebalance," not "IWAY nerf" anyhow. But both have the same effect.

Elrodien · Jan 09, 2006, 11:31 AM // 11:31

Nerfing IWAY isn't the answer. If it was nerfed, would new players to the Tombs get any less fustrated? I don't think so.

The whole Tombs system needs looked at and improved. Most of us don't have the time to stand around for 2 hours to get a group together before you actually play a single battle. No. A better system of finding players to suit a build would be much better, and there are lots of good ideas in this thread if you look back through it.

I'm not sure why this thread hasn't been locked by now, because like the FoTM debate, everything that is being said is just getting recycled.

Siliconwafer · Jan 09, 2006, 11:38 AM // 11:38

Why are new tombs players frustrated? Because their only choice, effectively, is IWAY-or so I've heard. Rank's another problem, but it's not really what this thread has evolved into.
What I was trying to say was that skillbalancing will force metagame changes within tombs, meaning that you get to play new builds-easily, without the giant wait otherwise-every month or so, which I consider pretty good.
I get the feeling that a lot of player matching systems would become diluted with the mass of players in tombs, and the fact that rank is used discriminatorily.

JR · Jan 09, 2006, 11:47 AM // 11:47

Play well, develop contacts, get into a good guild. It's as simple as that. I was GvGing in a fairly decent guild before I ever started tombing seriously. Why? Because if you are going to tomb, you can't beat doing it with a guild group.

Patrograd · Jan 09, 2006, 12:10 PM // 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siliconwafer

, and the fact that rank is used discriminatorily.

Couple of points on this.

Firstly, all the current high rank players started off as rank 0. They were discrimnated against, but got through it. We have a member of our guild who has gone from rank 0 to rank 6 in about two months, now he has no difficulty finding a good group to further bump his fame. He got there by partly playing in guild groups, and partly developing a good list of tombs friends that he has ranked with (we are more GvG orientated as a Guild).

Secondly, people often mistake rank as a symbol of player skill. this isnt why rank is (or should be ) used discriminately. Rank is used discriminately because what it is an undoubted symbol of is experience. I dont think you can get to tank 3 for example without having played on most, if not all of the maps in tombs, several times. You will almost certainly have lost more battles than you have won fame points, and so will have fought in something well over 350 tombs battles, probably across a variety of builds. You will have come across a variety of other builds, and seen what kind of skills and team builds are used. You will be aware of what is expected of you in your role in the team even if you have never personally played that role before, as you will have seen plenty of others playing it. You will know the successful tactics to be employed on each map without needing someone to hold your hand. You will almost certainly have voice comms and a working headset. it is natural that other rank 3 players will seek you out as a team member in preference to someone who hasnt been past the underworld more than a couple of times and doesnt know what vent is, let alone how to use it.

Once you reach rank 6 you will have spent quite a bit of time playing in decent rank 3 teams and will probably have guested on alot of good guild groups. You will almost certainly have won HoH a couple of times and will know the way that tombs works and the maps inside out, back to front. You can probably jump into any player build in any character class with ease and play it properly. Again, it is natural that other rank 6 players will want you on their team in preference to even a rank 3 player.

and so on and so forth up the ranking system.

It is a common complaint this one, and we have all felt the frustration of playing in low ranked PUGs. if you take it seriously enough, do as JR says in the post above. if you dont want to do that then you can hardly complain at being left behind in what is after all a fiercely competitive environment.

Only a game? Sure, but so is football.

Manfred · Jan 09, 2006, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Ah, but the reason i'm so pissed off at tombs is because you CAN'T fing a group that can beat IWAY. You can only find IWAY in tombs, maybe trapper groups or MFs if you're lucky. Making a pickup group, it is IMPIOSSIBLE to do anything else, people are just completely unprepared to try new things or think ahead.

If all the people in tombs are IWAY, it's impossible to get together a PUG to counter IWAY, and so it falls to the devs to break this stasis. Nerfwise if necessary. Heck, IWAY is a purely pvp skill anyways, it won't affect the balance of the game at all except for that one build.

Former Ruling · Jan 09, 2006, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Ok, I could go with 1 nerf, make IWAY only effect dead teammates :\

Kabale · Jan 09, 2006, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

Couple of points on this.

Firstly, all the current high rank players started off as rank 0. They were discrimnated against, but got through it. We have a member of our guild who has gone from rank 0 to rank 6 in about two months, now he has no difficulty finding a good group to further bump his fame. He got there by partly playing in guild groups, and partly developing a good list of tombs friends that he has ranked with (we are more GvG orientated as a Guild).

Secondly, people often mistake rank as a symbol of player skill. this isnt why rank is (or should be ) used discriminately. Rank is used discriminately because what it is an undoubted symbol of is experience. I dont think you can get to tank 3 for example without having played on most, if not all of the maps in tombs, several times. You will almost certainly have lost more battles than you have won fame points, and so will have fought in something well over 350 tombs battles, probably across a variety of builds. You will have come across a variety of other builds, and seen what kind of skills and team builds are used. You will be aware of what is expected of you in your role in the team even if you have never personally played that role before, as you will have seen plenty of others playing it. You will know the successful tactics to be employed on each map without needing someone to hold your hand. You will almost certainly have voice comms and a working headset. it is natural that other rank 3 players will seek you out as a team member in preference to someone who hasnt been past the underworld more than a couple of times and doesnt know what vent is, let alone how to use it.

Once you reach rank 6 you will have spent quite a bit of time playing in decent rank 3 teams and will probably have guested on alot of good guild groups. You will almost certainly have won HoH a couple of times and will know the way that tombs works and the maps inside out, back to front. You can probably jump into any player build in any character class with ease and play it properly. Again, it is natural that other rank 6 players will want you on their team in preference to even a rank 3 player.

and so on and so forth up the ranking system.

It is a common complaint this one, and we have all felt the frustration of playing in low ranked PUGs. if you take it seriously enough, do as JR says in the post above. if you dont want to do that then you can hardly complain at being left behind in what is after all a fiercely competitive environment.

Only a game? Sure, but so is football.

There it is, ladies and gentlemen, quoted in all it's glory.

On a side note, I don't remember actually complaining about not getting into groups when I was rank 0-2. Maybe some people here are just not competitive/persistent enough to work their way up...

Wolvine · Jan 09, 2006, 02:37 PM // 14:37

I believe that an IWAY group is a good test bed for a new play to PVP as it gets them used to the leam playng aspect more and the volatility of the team based area.

At the end of the day the rank system is the only way for a pure pvp player to show there experience and if you think of it for PVE player we have a variety of status symbols like weapons 15k arour etc which pvp players do not have easy access to.

Yes and before you ask I am an PVE player with 15k armour with over 1000 hours of pve gameplay and I am now starting to get into tomb and I have attained rank 1 after 10 days of perservering with iway build now I am starting to get better and hopefully will expand into other roles when I decide which pve char I am deleting.

on average it take me about 15 to 30 mins to get into a team in tombs and at the end of the day you need to perservere to get any where on life as we are not all born with a silver spoon in our mouths.

Suvat · Jan 10, 2006, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kabale

On a side note, I don't remember actually complaining about not getting into groups when I was rank 0-2. Maybe some people here are just not competitive/persistent enough to work their way up...

That's equivalent to saying to your kid: "In my day, I was caned for misbehaving at school and don't remember ever complaining, but now you come home sulking because your teacher made you stand in a corner"

I'm not saying such reasoning is completely wrong, since many people blame some of the problems of society on the fact that harsh disciplinary procedures some of us have been brought up on have been banned, but the human race should move forward and just because some of us have gone through some suffering does not mean that its only fair if those after us should endure the same thing.

Another example was the fact that I bought a superior expertise rune for 15k to complete my final character a few days before the rune trader was implemented, after which the price immediately plummeted to around ~1k. Although I may feel it was 'unfair' that newer players have a much easier time than me, the implementation of the rune trader was generally a change for the better.

There is little doubt that the current tombs ranking system is flawed, but coming up with a fair system which does not lock out newbies while at the same time rewards dedicated players is much easier said than done.

Turnpike · Jan 11, 2006, 08:19 AM // 08:19

I'm glad I stumbled on this thread, I spent a considerable amount of time tonight trying to get some HoH rounds in and it is very frustrating trying to get in a group. I've been playing this game on and off since beta (mostly just random arena for fun) so I don't have much tombs experience, but I want to join a mature (I'm 25 yo) guild for some pvp action. I play strictly a monk pvp (most skills unlocked) and have a few years of online competitive gaming experience so I'm very familiar with vent/ts/irc, etc. Sorry for my shameless self promotion but shoot me a PM if ya got a guild willing to coach a monk a lil bit.

Mighti · Jan 11, 2006, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Tombs are pissing me off...
Not because I can't get into a group(I only play with my guild anyway), not because i got no rank...it's just that every fight we have to face the same boring builds over and over. It really is time for a balanceupdate.
Right now 99% of all teams are running one of the following builds:

Iway
Rangerspike
Mesmerfotm (Dual Migraine/ESurge)
and the occasional Ele- or Mixedspike

I'm really glad about every round we don't have to fight one of those boring standards. Even though we win most of the time it's just plain tiresome after a while. I don't think I'll play much until they got that fixed. (As every retard has already got his rank 9+ by having played only one build, rank isn't worth anything anymore anyway)

EternalTempest · Jan 11, 2006, 07:57 PM // 19:57

I have an ele and have every skill unlocked on ele. If I were to start trying tombs (Guild is not large enough to pull this off yet).

I can install Vent/TS clients but have had bad luck with them due to how tight my firewall, I can open ports if need be.

Do any of the existing Fotm use ele's and what type's of builds will I be required to play.

Also Rank 0.

glenn_rolfe · Jan 12, 2006, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by EternalTempest

I have an ele and have every skill unlocked on ele. If I were to start trying tombs (Guild is not large enough to pull this off yet).

I can install Vent/TS clients but have had bad luck with them due to how tight my firewall, I can open ports if need be.

Do any of the existing Fotm use ele's and what type's of builds will I be required to play.

Also Rank 0.

Yeah, you can find eles in plenty of builds - we have a fall-back build (the build we play when our test builds aren't working out and we feel like a good run) that runs 2 eles.
You'll see plenty of people run earth, principally for wards, with a spattering or fire, and the odd air. There's obsidian flame spike teams running around still. Clever teams can use water eles.

At rank 0, well just jump in groups and start playing tombs, watch observer mode, and see what people are running. Pick a common profession to help yuo get in groups easier. My advice to you would be to start monking, prot monk as well, to help you get in more teams and become a real asset for others.

Sephir Demange · Jan 12, 2006, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Every new page of this thread is a rehash of what was said before. It would be impossible to have any type of ranking system without upsetting people. Why? Because some HAVE and others WANT. Whenever there is a situation like that, malcontent will run rampant. While having a team of high ranked people taking on the occaisional person tombs who may not know as much (i.e. lower rank) is possible, it isn't very smart on either the part of the party, or the new person. And the reason is most new people, and hell even most of the r3's and some r6's running around just don't know enough about tombs strategies yet. Rank helps, or I suppose was intended to help, get people of the same calibur together to tombs. To everyone trying to break into tombs, it IS possible, just make a friends list. Rank does in fact matter, because if nothing else you know that they've at least spent a good deal of time in tombs.

glenn_rolfe · Jan 13, 2006, 12:15 AM // 00:15

haha Seph, you got sucked in to posting in this topic again..............sucker

(oh crap, so did I)

minor · Jan 13, 2006, 12:42 AM // 00:42

this monster is from the back from the dead woot...lol
Same old song from me a rank 6 Iway all the wayer is leet

Someone who wins gvg and works their guild up the ladder but doesn't bother to do tombs much and get high rank is noob

O well i gave up on tombs and went back to gvg; just pop in to laugh at rank 6 iways demanding others be rank 6 to do normal iway with them.

DarkerHelmet · Jan 16, 2006, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

Yeah, i had a similar problem.
I didnt pve much since it sucked hard, so once stuff like air spike came around handing out fame to the idiots I fell behind, since i didnt have the skills unlocked (apart from occasionally going monk fi boon premade).
Once faction came into play i was too far behind in terms of fame to now get a group, and since i dont have a guild im not going to get any that way.
All in all it just flags up that fame is a random 'time played' addition that has no use besides annoying people like me.
Encouraging elitism doesnt seem what anet wanted, but among 90% of the people i talk to its just that (/fame spammer type people). I understand that some people think its pretty or something, but frankly either introduce performance based stats which define rank or get rid of it.

Yep that's what I've noticed as well. Ever since faction arrived I basically stopped entering the Tombs. It's so very annoying to be waiting to be accepted. I'm still rank 0 and I know I will never enter a group like this, I'm not trying anymore. I also agree that faction has nothing to do with skill whatsoever. Sure I didn't practice in a while but I'm very willing to make a teameffort and listen to strategies and implement them, I want to learn. This can't be said by a majority of players though even though many are high ranked.

I think the whole ranking idea should leave, otherwise only a select number of players will ever play the Tombs which can't be what ArenaNet wants. The ranks indeed bring out the worst in players; arrogance. As soon as you introduce some kind of statssystem people will play for that (also happens in BF2) and are not really concerned about playing for 'fun' anymore.

I know I could be an asset to any team if they just give me a chance, wich IMO will not happen soon with this ranking crap.