Curse

Elrodien · Dec 02, 2005, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenn_rolfe

Well if he doesn't I do.

I can spot any IWAY trapper by asking them to run an oath shot build.
I can spot any IWAY war by asking them to target call or run shock
I can spot any IWAY necro by asking them to run spiteful
I can spot any IWAY player by asking them to get on sb vent

Total ignorance. Basically what you are saying is IWAY players haven't a clue. Over-generalisation is not the answer in an intelligent debate. Try again

lishi · Dec 02, 2005, 10:22 AM // 10:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linkusmax

So you're a hypocrit then? nice.

You seem to think players who use IWAY are automatically gonna be crap, yet if you even spend a litle time researching those who use the mod builds you will find that most are good players.

why he should do that?

if you make a balaced build you will take someone you know do iway all day or someone you know run balaced build?

and i dont care to find a good player among iway i dont like waste 20-30 minute to find out if a person is decent or no , maybe if he a possible guildies or a friend but why i should to do that for unknow people?(sometime to fill a last spot i give a try to some less ranked people but this is not a duty like some people believe)

and about rank requirement , when i make a team i ask for rank6+ people (rank 3+ if i have some less ranked guildies) , after the invite i will make the build question rank 6 or no ... BUT i never asked to show me the emote ,

it look like the group who care more about rank are ranked iway , they always ask for emote ...

Navaros · Dec 02, 2005, 10:39 AM // 10:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenn_rolfe

Let's face it, no matter how you try and gloss it up, playing IWAY consitently carries serious baggage in this game because non-IWAY players (and by that I mean players running builds capable of winning and holding the halls) think that IWAY is a joke build, designed only for 1v1 gank. It's formula with a well known solution.

Ranger spike/rainbow spike/the old air apike/smiting etc. carry respect (even if a little formula driven) because those builds are/were strong builds designed around the map strategies.
IWAY isn't, and the longer you play it, the more rank and fame you brag about having from playing in it, the less respect the wider PvP community has for that player. That's just a fact. But if you're OK with that, you make that choice.

When did this thread become another IWAY thread? LOL

In regards to the quote here: I hold Halls practically every time my Guild runs a real build with me on the team (ie: every night or two). IMO, holding Halls is a joke. You get no fame bonus for holding halls, sigils are practically worthless now, most gold item drops on the HoH floor are garbage. So why waste 3 hours or so making a party to hold Halls when there is no worthwhile reward for doing so? Holding Halls is pointless, so wasting time trying to do it is illogical.

I have more respect for players who farm fame with IWAY (a trend I am proudly a leader in starting) than those who only insist on waiting a few hours for a decent party to be assembled, only to lose a few rounds in and then have that party disband after only getting about 4 fame points (ie: the fate of most r6+ PUGS nowadays).

Those who use common sense to realize that IWAY can be a much more profitable and sensible way to get worthwhile rewards from PVP should be respected for playing smart.

OneArmedScissor · Dec 02, 2005, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Can we stay on topic please?

My frustration with Tombs is finding people to get in groups with, obviously.
It is almost impossible to find a decent group. One person screws up and the whole team leaves. Wanna try a new build idea? Good luck getting compitant players to join.

I've done plenty of IWAY groups WAAAYYYY back in the day, but I guess I'm just gonna have to start joining these groups if I plan on actually having fun in Tombs.

The emote just causes discrimination in the Tombs community.
How on earth is a new player suppose to get to rank 3 when it's impossible to get a decent group in the first place?

Elrodien · Dec 02, 2005, 01:49 PM // 13:49

/agree

I think that the general consensus here is that it is IWAY that has caused the ranking system to skew so it can't be used as a guide to a players tombs experience. Whether this is true or not, the medium to good players demand a higher rank to join their group as getting to rank 6 with IWAY PUGs is not going to happen (or if it does, it will take so long you will have given up by rank 4). This then cuts off the players who want to start playing tombs across the board without prejudice. The old Catch 22 rears its ugly head. You can't get into a team without experience and you can't get experience without being in a team. The only way a new player can get into the tombs is with a PUG made up with new players. After the 6th time of getting slaughtered on the 1st map, do you think those 8 guys are going to want to play in the tombs? Nope, I don't either.

Sure, you can try a PvP guild, but PvP guilds much rarer than PvE ones and will a PvP guild want to accept a rank 0 with no fame? Granted, some will, but most will want to recruit experienced players that can slip into their build and systems easily.

If some people think there is nothing wrong with this then they are cutting their own throats. If the system stays the same, no fresh players will try the tombs and it will be left to around 80 hardcore rank 34330 geeks who do nothing else but eat, sleep and tombs.

Maybe they want it to be this way, but I don't think Anet do. Expect big changes in Chapter 2 guys...

asdar · Dec 02, 2005, 02:41 PM // 14:41

They could fix it easily just by having a decent group finding function. It wouldn't even need to be fancy. Just gather infor from across districts in the same way they know that a friend is on so that if you're building a new build people with the patience will find you and you'll be able to do it.

People would use it and come back. I've got every skill unlocked and tons of patience, I know I'd look to find a new build and work with whoever the leader was.

How do you find that group when you have to hope between 10 nearly empty districts and 3 full distracts being spammed by IWAY, Trapper or Minion teams.

Del12 · Dec 02, 2005, 04:09 PM // 16:09

IMO the problem isn't IWAY, its warrior damage. So by the fact that IWAY has 6+ of the highest dps characters in the game, the average pug isn't prepared for this and sadly gets farmed, which leads to above mentioned problem.

I make balanced groups in tombs, and when it comes to pure dps damage, theres only one option, the w/r (or r/w axe/hammer is good too). Either way, both really a warrior. There's no other character build that compares to this dps. Air ele? Not anymore with its 3 second over-nerfed chain lightning. Any kinda necro or mesmer? Nope, good for some AOE damage, energy denial, shutdown, but not even close to the dps of a good w/r. Smite monk? not even close. I used to have an air ele or two in almost every group, now I hardly ever take them. So I would hesitate to say axe warriors need a nerf, but they do. But of course now they'll make them attack like once every 5 seconds or so they become useless. /end rant

tafy69 · Dec 02, 2005, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Well I dunno about them needing a nerf, yes they are the best for dps but also have the most counters against them. Theres too many skills to gimp a warrior so nerfing warriors means u need to nerf anti warrior skills too.

I dunno tbh, my teams never have probs vs IWAY, just take some inti IWAY spells and ur ok usually.

IWAY Evolution :

1. 8 W/R
2. 7 W/R, 1 Orders
3. 6 W/R, 1 Order, 1 Tainted
4. 4 W/R, 1 Order, 1 Tainted, 2 Trappers

They mod it anymore there wont be any warriors left lol

Del12 · Dec 02, 2005, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by tafy69

Well I dunno about them needing a nerf, yes they are the best for dps but also have the most counters against them.

Good point, there are a ton of counters for warriors so I guess high dps is good to compensate.

But despite that fact, even with all those potential counters, I still choose warriors as my primary damage, as does every decent group except for spike groups and minion groups. I just think there needs to be more options for a balanced group's damage, i.e. buff air eles and smite monks or lessen warrior damage.

Next time your in tombs, look at every group except for those two types, and you'll see w/r as the primary damage dealer(s). This doesn't include the newb groups with a guy casting firestorm and a couple of henchies.

I may try 3 air eles next time, rather than warriors, but I bet we won't make it far. Speaking of counters, would you rather have a ton of different ones (as for warriors) or just one that is as devastating to dps as prot spirit is to air eles (which almost every prot monk carries btw). So in that perspective, I don't think the number of counters matters at all.

Rey Lentless · Dec 02, 2005, 09:33 PM // 21:33

I don't think warriors need a nerf, but I think it's been a pretty common opinion that eles could use a buff.

Navaros · Dec 03, 2005, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrodien

/agree

I think that the general consensus here is that it is IWAY that has caused the ranking system to skew so it can't be used as a guide to a players tombs experience. Whether this is true or not, the medium to good players demand a higher rank to join their group as getting to rank 6 with IWAY PUGs is not going to happen (or if it does, it will take so long you will have given up by rank 4). This then cuts off the players who want to start playing tombs across the board without prejudice. The old Catch 22 rears its ugly head. You can't get into a team without experience and you can't get experience without being in a team. The only way a new player can get into the tombs is with a PUG made up with new players. After the 6th time of getting slaughtered on the 1st map, do you think those 8 guys are going to want to play in the tombs? Nope, I don't either.

Sure, you can try a PvP guild, but PvP guilds much rarer than PvE ones and will a PvP guild want to accept a rank 0 with no fame? Granted, some will, but most will want to recruit experienced players that can slip into their build and systems easily.

If some people think there is nothing wrong with this then they are cutting their own throats. If the system stays the same, no fresh players will try the tombs and it will be left to around 80 hardcore rank 34330 geeks who do nothing else but eat, sleep and tombs.

Maybe they want it to be this way, but I don't think Anet do. Expect big changes in Chapter 2 guys...

You are right with a lot of what you said here, however as you can see, IWAY is not the problem. Rather, IWAY is merely a workaround to the problem. It's a systematic problem with the lack of a decent in-game group finding system. Having to attract party members from the 15 - 20 others (too small of a number) in the same district as you, when they happen to read your soliticing spam, is casting far too small of a net towards potential players.

Also, your post is neglecting the fact that everyone started at 0 fame. All the problems faced by new players, were also faced by all the high-ranked players at some point. Those people have put in the dedication and committment to claw their way up the fame system; hence it is reasonable to deduce that they are deserving of the benefits that go along with that. ie: being able to get into non-crap groups.

dbgtboy · Dec 03, 2005, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenn_rolfe

Sorry, this couldn't be further from the truth. IWAY warriors don't learn how to call targets, switch targets, call condtion removals, run adrenaline spikes at the right time, understand how to act with what hexes on them (like hitting through spiteful spirit), know how to run relics - they just run around and bash and grind.
You pick up a war r6+ and ask them to run shock warrior build - no storm artifact, no frenzy, air magic about 4, no knockdown gauntlets, blah blah blah. To me, that is a ridiculous lack of knowledge at that level.

That is totally not true, i can play any type of warrior you want, i can call, i can switch targets (when the enemy has like 50 enchants on him), i dont attack through spiteful, i know when to run relics, i dont just bash and grind, if i see a trap being set down beside me I run away and let my pet take it and then go back in. This may be true for the average iway warrior but not MATH, before i even started iway i used to play ele, warrior, some monk, and ranger (i was rank 5 too, not even 1 fame was gained through spirit spam). Whoever doesnt know how to do adrenaline spikes is just... lol.

Rey Lentless · Dec 03, 2005, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

This may be true for the average iway warrior but not MATH

Yah, that's really the thing. I think you guys look at your own guild and see talent and skill, and think.. see.. people who play iway are fine. I have no idea about you guys because I haven't played with you, but I'm guessing you guys are an exception and not the standard when it comes to iway players.

Lews · Dec 03, 2005, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Oh stop complaining. Go join an iway team, get to rank 3, or 6, or whatever you need to do to get into PuG's these days, and then get slaughtered by a Guild Team that knows what they're doing.

dbgtboy · Dec 04, 2005, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lews

Oh stop complaining. Go join an iway team, get to rank 3, or 6, or whatever you need to do to get into PuG's these days, and then get slaughtered by a Guild Team that knows what they're doing.

if VIKI and Joke (guilds on first page of ladder) dont know what they are doing, then i totally agree with you.

glenn_rolfe · Dec 04, 2005, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

I don't think warriors need a nerf, but I think it's been a pretty common opinion that eles could use a buff.

Got to agree here and I think a lot of skills that have exhaustion should lose the exhaustion or reduce the impact of exhaustion.
And also reduce some of the casting times are just too long.

Eles in tombs for example have too little impact and are generally carried only for second class to keep foes, gale and windborne.

Livpooolsupafayn · Dec 04, 2005, 05:24 AM // 05:24

I agree that eles could use a buff. Earth eles are the only really usable primary class in a balanced tombs group. Infact I try to incorporate one into all my builds now. Water and fire eles youll hardly ever see and air eles have far to many skills that cause exhaustion (although they run pretty well in team arenas with blinding flash and gale, support spiking)

Warriors definately do not need a nerf. Try playing as a trapper or even a ward ele and youll see how vulnerable they can become. Cripple and kite, blind em, and theyre useless.

Ill admit that I played for some iway teams before I reached rank 3, infact I got 90 of the 180 fame in one run with a R3 + iway team that took me in, but since then the thought of playing in another iway team hasnt even crossed my mind. I dont understand why people who have their emote would continue to play iway, its so boring and noobish. Even Rank 6 +'s still playing iway?? wow time to expand your horizon a bit.

IWAY for me now seems really easy to beat, I cant remember the last time I lost to one. It really does limit your knowledge of the game as a whole. Believe me Ive learned 10 times more by playing in balanced builds than by playing iway. How all the class combos and skills sets should compliment each other and fit together to form a team build.

I think for the good of this game as a whole, they should not nerf iway, but get rid of the skill all together. Then people who rely on it would be forced to learn a real build for a change.

Its funny to me that there are guilds who specialize in iway tactics. Most people join guilds to get away from iway but meh, to each his own I guess.

With regards to rank, I used to also think the same as you guys, "oh this one time I beat a rank 3 + group so I must be better than them and they must be elitest pricks for not accepting me into their group" Not the case. Once you get your emote rank, something that hopefully you'll have worked hard to earn, then you'll very quickly develop a similar attitude that you used to hate. Not because you've become an elitest prick, but because you dont want to waste your time and effort on someone who 90% of the time has no idea what he's doing, dragging down the rest of the team with them and very quicky disbanding the group that took a half hour to form. True there are some Rank 3 noobs still out there who cant follow simple instructions like "ball up on 1" or "open the gate on the other side so we can get through."

Stop complaining and get on with it, rank 3 may seem like a long ways away but it wouldnt be as satisfying once you reach that level if it was'nt. Once youre at rank 3 you'll have no problems making fame anymore, and I guaruntee you wont want to be taking in any rank 0's or 1's that think theyre good because they beat the pve part of the game (which after you start pvping all of a sudden becomes much much easier) Then when you get onto rank 6 + groups you'll start winning and holding halls on a consistent basis.

Its too bad that the sigils are now worthless, I bought the game not that long ago and I heard they used to be worth 25-30 k each but now theyre like 1k and I have a whole collection of them.

Slick Blade · Dec 04, 2005, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Im just another bored of pve frutrated i cant find a group pvp player so im no expert but i think iway needs to be nerfed. I used to go to tombs and find a group pretty easily. Sure we got smashed half the time and beaten most of the time but it was still enjoyable. Since iway took over its a lot harder to find a group and when you do you usually come up against iway and with little experience and almost no organisation u can never win. So unless a pvp guild will take me in i geuss its time to give up GW.

I have finished pve with a monk, blood necro, air/water ele and hammer warrior. Although that helps for little in pvp i have a basic understanding of those chars and have a big set of ears for listening to people and following instuctions. I can kill pretty good in ca so if anyone is looking for someone to pvp with my ingame names are Slick Blades, Ahlana Bloodbane and Monkee Magix. Thanks

Lorien of Mandos · Dec 04, 2005, 04:47 PM // 16:47

I am in awe that this thread has made it to 10 pages. With so many of you on here complaining about how hard it is to get in group without R3 it seems like there should be plenty of non-ranked players in tombs lfg. If you are all so good and just being discriminated against for lack of rank instead of lack of skill, you should have no trouble joining forces and beating the crap out of the R3+ team you saw forming in your district.

Get together, form a team, be willing to stay on the team even if you lose and work with the other people on your team to de termine where the weaknesses lie and ways you can improve, get on TS/Vent as this will make it much easier to communicate with your team (plus you will need it if you ever hope to land on a R3+ team). Also try to come up with an experimental build to try - you may be suprised when forming the group and find some high ranked players willing to join to try out your new build. If you feel daunted by trying to come up with an 8-person build, try developing a 4v4 build 1st and go try it out in TA so you can gain faction to unlock more stuff and increase the chance that you actually have the skills and runes needed to run on several more advanced tombs builds.

For god's sake stop crying about it and make an effort to circumvent it. All the effort that has been wasted complaining about the elitism in tombs could have instead been channeled into taking the steps needed to gain experience in tombs and prove to the PvP community that you are a worthwhile addition to their team.

[EDIT] I think what it really boils down to is patience. Good players understand that forming a team does not stop with having 8 players in your party. Time must be spent prior to going in to coordinate skills, communicate strategy, define roles, etc. If you really want to evolve your skill in tombs and gain that R3, you must be willing to stay patient even in the face of defeat. If your team loses, dont just quit and assume that the team was full of idiots, work with the players in your group and try to find a fix for why you lost. This is the only way you will ever actually become a skilled player, and you will be suprised at how easy it is to gain fame if you stick with your team and concentrate on trial and error vs. just quitting the group because they lost and then trying your luck with another random PUG.

glenn_rolfe · Dec 04, 2005, 10:48 PM // 22:48

I would have thought that people would be more frustrated with keeping groups together than actually forming groups.
Forming groups never seems like much of a problem but keeping them together is a bit more tricky.

I agree with a previous post, the higher level you get the less patience you have for lower ranked players. Now that sounds elitist, but once you are skillful enough to be a halls holding player for example, you accept nothing less when you go in. Otherwise you really feel like you're wasting your time. I don't mind going down to better players, and builds, or map tactics, but not because there's been weak links in the group. That's just the natural progression you make as a player.

Once you've had chocolate, you don't want vanilla