Curse

minor · Apr 09, 2006, 09:54 PM // 21:54

First off thank you ensign for the wealth of information you, and some other intelligent posters, have discussed. I have started this thread to try and get a little bit different train of thought then the other threads. I may repeat points others have made please don't take offense.
Will people please refrain from arguing that eles don't need a fix, we ve seen enough of it. I am mainly focused on gvg so no comments on things like team arenas.
Now to the fix...hopefully

Eles can't out dps a decent warrior so they are not good as primary damage dealers. The easy fix of course is to up the damage and/or make some spells spamable. Spells could have reduced recharge or no exhaustion penalty. The question is does anet think its "balanced" for an eles dps to keep up with a warrior. I think they are againist eles doing comparable damage due to the "advantges" of casting spells from the backline as opposed to warriors who have to get in your face to attack. Its up to anet basic sense of game "balance", but it would be nice to have something besides warriors for dps.

The other supposed damage eles can do is aoes, but they have far too may drawbacks. They really need to have reduced casting times, in present form they are too easy to interupt. The other problem with the long casting time is that the cluster of players your trying to hit with an aoe has moved apart by the time you actually cast. Some Aoes are lacking damage, people aren't hurt by them enough to actually move. Besides simply upping the damage, perhaps other spells could be like meteor storm and have a secondary effect over time. For example firestorm could set you on fire for a few seconds if you remained in it for X number of seconds.

Eles have a some useful skills, but the dps and /or aoes need a boost to be useful.

Just a few ideas, put your own in, please stick to topic with suggestions and ideas for the ele "fix".

Goonter · Apr 10, 2006, 03:23 AM // 03:23

However it turns out, in my mind the following would round out the damaging capablities of the elementalist well.

-Attunments recharge faster.
-Possably increase the amount of area effected in certain AoE spells.

-Decrease the recharge of Area Effect DoTs but keep it at a longer casting time.
-Decrease the cast time of Area Effect "Spike" (high damage single shot) spells but keep recharge slower.
I go over a little bit of what I mean by that here:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3005911

-Energy Storage skills or even passive ablities that aid the elementalist in long duration combat without being elite.
A few ideas have been mentioned, for example:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

There should be 1) An ES skill (most likely Elite) that gets rid of your EX, or at least makes it desolve a bit quicker, and 2) A passive portion of the ES Attribute should be quicker EX recovery.

-General distruption ablities of the ranger class filling more situational roles.
-Buff to Glyph of Concentration
I went over that a while back with some disagreement. But I still hold that opinion for now:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...hlight=goonter

I dont even know if its possable with how the game may be coded from the ground up. But if it is so possable then it would seem fair that:

-Skills to subtract the energy from the energy pool after the action is complete.
This way distruption would not have the added secondary benefit of energy denial.

Lastly...

-Skills to have their aftercast in the skill description.
Not that important overall, but its something that I usually fail to factor in, and I general fail to understand the necessity of it in most situations.
So if descriptions were as follows: Cost 10, Cast 2, Recharge 15, Delay 1
I will understand that this skill cant be instantly chained with some other skill I thought would have been a cool follow up.

Other popular suggestions include increasing the damage per skill, rebalancing armor damage reduction for elemental damage and increasing the duration of secondary effects of spells.
These are also fine ideas and I support them if it equals increased elemental damage dealing.

cookiemonkie · Apr 10, 2006, 05:28 AM // 05:28

Start off with attunements recycle time and see what happens from there....
Also consider the fact that Me/E using ele skills are more effective damage output. Air spiking is long dead (unless taken by surprise), ele's don't need the long aftercast time they have now, reduce the aftercast delay time to what it was before the updates last August.

angshuman · Apr 10, 2006, 06:27 AM // 06:27

Here's an attempt to come up with a skill that transforms an Ele's damage from intermittent spikes to a more steady DPS. Please do not take the actual numbers to heart, they are just something I came up with somewhat arbitrarily. Instead, try to comment on what you feel about the concept of the skill. Do you think something like this would work? Or do you feel it would be inherently underpowered or overpowered with a potential to create irreparable imbalance to the entire skill line of the Elementalist?

Elemental Focus {Elite}
Enchantment Spell OR Stance OR Signet
Attribute: Energy Storage (to prevent fast-casting Mesmers from abusing it)

For 1-15 seconds, all your Elemental Spells are easily interruptible, deal 33% less damage, cast 75% faster, recharge 50% faster, and consume 10% less energy.

Once again, don't pay too much attention to the numbers, I came up with them envisioning an Orb + Strike spamming scenario. At any rate, I'm going to go ahead and wear my flame suit for this one.

JR · Apr 10, 2006, 07:46 AM // 07:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by angshuman

Elemental Focus {Elite}
Enchantment Spell OR Stance OR Signet
Attribute: Energy Storage (to prevent fast-casting Mesmers from abusing it)

For 1-15 seconds, all your Elemental Spells are easily interruptible, deal 33% less damage, cast 75% faster, recharge 50% faster, and consume 10% less energy.

Wow, it's the Flurry of the Elementalist line.

angshuman · Apr 10, 2006, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Wow, it's the Flurry of the Elementalist line.

Similar in appearance, but the goals are completely different. Flurry's intent is to keep your DPS exactly the same while helping build up adrenaline for a spike. Here the idea here is to increase the DPS significantly while reducing the spike potential and increasing the vulnerability to momentary shutdown. More like Frenzy than Flurry, I'd say, but I wasn't trying to steal ideas from a different proffession.

Vermilion Okeanos · Apr 10, 2006, 08:03 AM // 08:03

Aura of Burst (Elite) Energy Storage
For # of seconds, all your elementalist spell have no aftercast delay.

Elemental Burst (Elite) No attribute
For # of sec, your next 2 spells have 2 seconds delay before reaching target.

(Instead of making Ele into another warrior with ranged AoE DPS, might as well focus what they are decent with; spikes.)

New AoE spells that have 5 sec duration, but hit twice per second. Then again, maybe not... (HoH AoE FotM).

More spells like double dragon, except ranged.

Byron · Apr 10, 2006, 04:01 PM // 16:01

In response to the original thread:

There is one thing to be said about elementalists that I think we can all agree upon: wanding is a joke. Why is this the case, when elementalists are intended to conjure the forces of nature with mastery? Surely they can do something about their wand power.

So, its not hard: By increasing your attributes in an elemental spectrum, you increase your damage output with that element while wielding a corresponding weapon. That is to say, a fire ele using a fire staff would do more damage by wanding. If it worked the same math that warriors have for their weapon mastery bonuses, that would definitely help out a weary elementalist. (Of course wanding does no critical hits)

lishi · Apr 10, 2006, 07:49 PM // 19:49

ele are fine as they are.

sure if you look ensign thread and look at number you will see warrior does some more damage, but why 2 warrior ,1 ele work better then 3 warrior ?
becouse warrior damage are affected by A LOT of condition , look how many thing make a warrior miss , reduce it damage etc etc

Sha Noran · Apr 10, 2006, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Hey I got quoted. :-D

... guess I don't really need to repost that idea then.

Ensign · Apr 10, 2006, 10:20 PM // 22:20

I've posted a list of skill changes I'd like so I don't think I need to go over specifics again. The three step process for making eles effective damage dealers goes something like this though:

1) Spells need to be priced for their actual energy costs. Jacking up the price on everything because of Energy Storage and Attunements or Prodigy simply makes for a profession of overpriced skills, with an energy engine better suited for maximizing your secondary. If a mesmer or necromancer wouldn't be expected to pay 25 for a particular skill, an elementalist shouldn't either.

2) All skills are limited by their energy costs, cast times, and recharges. The best spells are generally constrained by only one of these. Good spells are oftentimes attractive because one of those constraints is effectively nonexistant. A significant majority of elementalist skills are held back by all three costs, making them very difficult to work with. Reduce or remove restrictions from skills to make them applicible for more builds without significantly increasing their output.

3) Make sure that important class functions can be handled without forcing you to use a specific elite. Sure you can make elementalists effective Ether Prodigy junkies, but since you've gone through the trouble of making this elite mechanic it would be nice if you at least, you know, let us explore it a little.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lishi

sure if you look ensign thread and look at number you will see warrior does some more damage, but why 2 warrior ,1 ele work better then 3 warrior ?

Because one ele can significantly disrupt the other team's warriors with Blurred Vision, Blinding Flash, and Ward Against Melee, while also helping your own warriors by snaring their target for them with water snares. Basically there's an awful lot of utility that you want to have in a build, and you can't afford to run three warriors most of the time because of it. Of course if you can you do it. =)

Damage potential alone won't cut it, you need to set up that damage. The key combination in this game is a good source of damage (warriors), plus removal to keep the damage coming (disenchants, Holy Veils, Draw Conditions, etc), plus a snare to keep your target in place (Crippling Shot or water snares).

Elementalists are not being used because they're better damage dealers - they're used because they are a combination of warrior shutdown, powered Heal Party support, and movement control. The modern water elementalist actually deals a pathetic amount of damage on his own. It's similar to why you use domination mesmers instead of more warriors, because setting up your own damage and disrupting the other team can be a much stronger play.

Peace,
-CxE

KelvinC · Apr 11, 2006, 05:48 AM // 05:48

Damage over time AOE:
when I think DoT AOE I think doing damage on multiple targets effectively, however in practice people don't stand there. Also people move alot therefore having a long casting time means it is extremely difficult to hit more than 1 target. (in fact most skill here need to hit 3+ ppl to break even :OMG)

Therefore they need a buff.
I think the real problem is not their damage, but their effeciency.
Therefore I propose:

-decrease the recharge time
-decrease the cast time
-increase the Area of Effect

Water snare:
It appears to be a effective, however when considering the cast time they didn't earn much.

Cosider a cast-chase situation:
A player is fleeing and you want to stop him from fleeing using water:
When a caster is casting a spell he has 0% movment speed. It means when he is casting the enemy may already escaped further. Even if he is slowed, by the time you almost approach him he can move fast again. Meaning you are not earning anything really. Even if you do earn 1-2 seconds of relative movement distance the mana may already offset theadvantage and have a sum-zero yield.

Therefore to make it effective it must either:
-reduce the cast time

sandstorm should cast 1/4 sec and fly faster
ice spike should cast 1 sec instead of 2
deep freeze should cast 2 sec instead of 3

KelvinC · Apr 11, 2006, 06:01 AM // 06:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by angshuman

Elemental Focus {Elite}
Enchantment Spell OR Stance OR Signet
Attribute: Energy Storage (to prevent fast-casting Mesmers from abusing it)

For 1-15 seconds, all your Elemental Spells are easily interruptible, deal 33% less damage, cast 75% faster, recharge 50% faster, and consume 10% less energy.

Another elite??
Currently I think most must need skills for ele are elite, reducing it flexability.
We need some good skill that is NOT a elite.

Ka RaTae · Apr 12, 2006, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by lishi

ele are fine as they are.

sure if you look ensign thread and look at number you will see warrior does some more damage, but why 2 warrior ,1 ele work better then 3 warrior ?
becouse warrior damage are affected by A LOT of condition , look how many thing make a warrior miss , reduce it damage etc etc

Have you ever asked why all those things are constantly in play? It's because people fear warriors and do not fear elementalists as damage dealers.

In a lot of cases your example would not hold true. If it's directed warrior hate, then having less warriors would make it harder for your warriors.

Ka RaTae · Apr 12, 2006, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by KelvinC

Damage over time AOE:
when I think DoT AOE I think doing damage on multiple targets effectively, however in practice people don't stand there. Also people move alot therefore having a long casting time means it is extremely difficult to hit more than 1 target. (in fact most skill here need to hit 3+ ppl to break even :OMG)

Therefore they need a buff.
I think the real problem is not their damage, but their effeciency.
Therefore I propose:

-decrease the recharge time
-decrease the cast time
-increase the Area of Effect

I generally agree with this, but the problem is ANET would not want the ele skills used and abused by other classes. If they are to do this stuff they would need to tie it into energy storage so that only a primary ele get's the huge benefits.

cookiemonkie · Apr 12, 2006, 07:16 PM // 19:16

If they want to tie it to energy storage, than it should be the Ele that has the benefits of a reduced cast time / after cast time and energy regained for using an Ele skill. How is this a hard concept to implement? You should be the master of your primary, meaning the most effiecient at using Ele skills.

Nope doesn't work that way, you want efficient usage of Ele skills for damage output, go with a fast case Me/E. The only reason to use E/anything is for ether prodigy.

BahamutKaiser · Apr 13, 2006, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Casting times and getting interrupted aren't the hardest things to avoid realy, glyph of concentration does work pretty well.

The AoE need to be incease though that way it isn't so easy to scatter as soon as you see and elementist casting an AoE. And Glyph of concentration is only worth bringing if the damage or effect of your spell is strong enough to sacrifice an Skill slot and add an addition 5 energy and 1 second cast time to improve your spell, what is the point of that spell isn't significantly powerful. I would only take a little more damage on elementist spells to make the use of Glyph of Concentration and like skills worth using, but knowing your Rodgorts invocation is only going to hit for 55-60 damage and burn for maybe 18 damage isn't worth another 5 energy/1 second cast Glyph to ensure it isn't disrupted. There should be more powerful, significan't, useful spells for elementist to combine to make them worth protecting, even if the cast time is 5 seconds and it cost 40 energy, it would make preserving the spell worth it.

The AoE of some projectile spells I can understand being Adjacent target damage, even something like Pheonix, but most Area around yourself spells should be at least "in an area around you" and almost never adjacent foes.

The AoE on spells ranges from Adjacent (3 paces accross), Area around target (4 paces), Nearby (5 paces), and at that location (6 paces). Alot of spells need to be upped to Area around and nearby damage. All the DoT spells need to be at least location damage, and it would be great if there were spells that did even larger radius damage then location, perhaps twice as large, in an area around you for new DoT spells. Like a Firestorm spell which hits all targets in a radius around you, not for spells targeting enemies, those should be a maximum of 6 paces in diameter, but they could make DoT spells that did damage around yourself in a radius twice as large, the cost and casting time be damned, having powerful enough spells worth casting Glyph of Concentration and using your large energy pool is what Elementist need.

Another way they can make DoT spells alot more effective is to make them castable on allies and or yourself, this way spells like firestorm can be put directly over yourself to ensure they hit enemies around you instead of on a target who may run out of the way to ensure his teammates dont get hit, and put the DoT damage in a location they arn't occupying. They could also make some DoT spells which deal damage around you like Balthazars Aura, putting it on teammates might be too far into the support realm of smitting, but putting it around yourself seems neccessary to ensure enemies around you take damage wile you chase or run away from them, like lavafont. This is expecially important when your trying to earthquake a target near you to knock down several targets for an Aftershock, often if the enemy can't interrupt you he just runs away meaning the damage only hits him, and he is to far away to aftershock, wile other targets near you don't get hit at all, it would be much more effective if you were able to cast the spell on yourself ensuring that anyone who remains near you will get hit, and will be vulnerable to aftershock.

Xpl0iter · Apr 17, 2006, 05:14 AM // 05:14

For all i gotta say, by the number of threads i see over ele being gimps, and the request to make them stronger by such a vast number of players, which includes pro players like Ensign, ANET needs to pay some serious attention to these threads. Specialy when couple of people are actualy coming up with literall proofs that show what ANET describes ele as *Damage dealers* which is far from truth as Ensign proves in his thread of "Why Nuking Sux?"

By the way bahamut, i wouldn't take glyph of concentration with me which requires 1 second cast before any spell i want to force cast. I prefer mantra of resolve for that reason which is a mesmer line spell. Again, a mesmer spell becomes my choice over an ele glyph just to support my ele skills. Pathetic to be honest that current glyphs just have a huge cast time for what they should be saved for.

Regardz
An Elementalist.

cookiemonkie · Apr 17, 2006, 09:55 AM // 09:55

Noone is ever going to take glyph of concentration when there is mantra of resolve available... which is a mesmer stance and has no cast time or rediculous 0.75 second after cast time the ele skill would have.

From all the evidence presented. I don't think ANET bothered to play this game.

Ka RaTae · Apr 17, 2006, 12:38 PM // 12:38

I have suggested this in one of the other threads, but I'll redo it here since this is a fix thread. I don't think that all these ideas should be implemented together, but any of them alone could help out the current problem.

Greater AOE Range -

This could be handled several ways. The best way would not be to just pump up current ranges IMO, because then you still get way too many ME/ELE's. I would like to see a Glyph/Enchant/Stance that is under the Energy Storage attribute that once activated would increase your AOE ranges. It could be dependant on EStorage so that you get something like this. All AOE ranges are increased by x feet for y seconds. The increase should be something spectacular at 16 also. Now certain spells like Metor Shower should have their text changed to say they only receive half benefit from Range Enhancement.

Better Cast/Recharge for Pure ELE's -

Another problem everyone seems to agree upon is that it is currently hard to keep up anykind of descent pressure due to long eaisly interupted casts, and long recharges. Again I don't think it would be a good idea to just lower these so maybe EStorge could also effect an elementalists cast time and recharge rate of elementalists skills only.

Exhaustion -

Give eles a non-elite option to manage exhaustion if they so choose that is based in energy storage. Or have exhaustion wear off faster for higher levels of energy storage.

------------

This isn't so much a fix suggestion, but a question/ pondering. Why do Rangers and Warriors have better defenses against elemental attacks then the supposed masters of the elements? Wouldn't it make more sense to allow elementalists to have the best armor period against elemental attacks.

Shouldn't metal armor be more of a problem against fire attacks since it will heat up and continue to cause a problem? Shouldn't metal armor vs lightning cause more of a problem as well, like arcing? Shouldn't Metal armor vs Cold provide less protection so maybe more penetration? Seems to me metal armor should only work well against earth. Leather or Tatoo's should have different properties vs. different elements as well.

-----

Please ANET...do something to make ELE's fun to play in a damage role again. Stop relgating them to Heal Paty/Windboure/Gale/Wards/Blinding Flash.