Curse

Vindexus · Mar 02, 2006, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by romO

also vindexus, in the case of caster spike, your additional armor isnt going to mean anything. in that situation, you become the most vulnerable character because the warriors generally have the least health due to running a superior rune. many caster spike skills (shatter ench, shatter delusions, obs flame, shadow strike, vamp gaze, etc) ignore armor and when you are in there with the least life and farthest from the monks, its great for security. now of course that was more useful back when caster spike was the metagame, but you still see it every now and then, and there are still a number of teams with only one warrior whose other players can still coordinate a string of high damage.

True enough, but I'm not going to tweak my skill bar for obflame spike or even mixed caster spike.

tafy69 · Mar 02, 2006, 06:58 AM // 06:58

I dont know about other guilds but we certainly try and spike a warrior all the time. If we find out that he has no Endure Pain then our job is a lot easier.

Also their team is prob telling them to stop using frenzy since we keep trying to spike them.

So now their warriors put out a lot less dps and are much more weary of pushing too far into our backline, usually we manage to put a few deaths on the warriors and then its like were playing a different game.

wheel · Mar 02, 2006, 07:04 AM // 07:04

If a guild is running a semi-spike build, we'll have everyone push up forward so that the warriors can overextend even more to allow them to more easily pressure the offense. It's more easily said than done, but you don't just let them spike out your warrior if he doesn't have endure. You push forward and let your warriors do their job more easily. Against a spike, your positioning is less important, so you're able to push into them much harder.

tafy69 · Mar 02, 2006, 08:10 AM // 08:10

That leaves your monks open to spikes, semispike builds requires 2 warriors normally

Its then battle of who kills monks first, while your recieving added dps from some NPC'S if there are any around.

Greedy Gus · Mar 02, 2006, 08:26 AM // 08:26

I don't buy all this "the metagame isn't spiking" stuff. Most teams are running at least warrior adrenaline spike right now supported by a few casters, and are generally pressure with peaks. Some focus heavily on the peak side, popping off TTL to build adren even. And endure comes in really handy even against these "peaks" of damage, even if we're not talking about 321 caster/ranger-spike

JR · Mar 02, 2006, 01:41 PM // 13:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

I don't buy all this "the metagame isn't spiking" stuff. Most teams are running at least warrior adrenaline spike right now supported by a few casters, and are generally pressure with peaks. Some focus heavily on the peak side, popping off TTL to build adren even. And endure comes in really handy even against these "peaks" of damage, even if we're not talking about 321 caster/ranger-spike

I don't honestly think Endure is that great. If they are adren spiking you (a warrior), you should see it coming and kite back towards your monks if you aren't already within healing range. And then endure is not going to help you at all really, your health should not drop low enough for endure to matter. The only thing it is usefull for, is if you are seriously over-extended, and they have you snared... but that should not happen if you play well.

Poison Ivy · Mar 02, 2006, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

I spit on Endure Pain. If you keep dying because you keep overextending, play better. Here are some tips:

1. When their Warriors turn around and start running at you, go back.
2. When all of their casters lift their arms at the same time and turn towards you, go back.
3. Stop overextending.

Good post though.

Or...yell SH!T SH!T I'M FOOKED, monk, cursors on me into Teamspeak!!!! (That always seems to work)

Neo-LD · Mar 02, 2006, 02:22 PM // 14:22

What are the attributes for a warrior using both Gale and tactics things like To The Limit and Healing Signet? Tactics requires a good amount of points to make those skills work, so I dont think you would be able to get 9 air magic anymore, unless you took almost all your points out of strength.

Schorny · Mar 02, 2006, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

What are the attributes for a warrior using both Gale and tactics things like To The Limit and Healing Signet? Tactics requires a good amount of points to make those skills work, so I dont think you would be able to get 9 air magic anymore, unless you took almost all your points out of strength.

what do you need strength for anyway?

wheel · Mar 02, 2006, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by tafy69

That leaves your monks open to spikes, semispike builds requires 2 warriors normally

Its then battle of who kills monks first, while your recieving added dps from some NPC'S if there are any around.

With caster assisted adrenaline spikes, it's very easy to tell who is going to get spiked. That has nothing to do with global positioning on the battlefield. It does, however, have everything to do with relative positioning of your team in relation to each other in the local sense. In other words, spread out.

tafy69 · Mar 02, 2006, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheel

With caster assisted adrenaline spikes, it's very easy to tell who is going to get spiked. That has nothing to do with global positioning on the battlefield. It does, however, have everything to do with relative positioning of your team in relation to each other in the local sense. In other words, spread out.

In a perfect world every member will see the warriors coming and pre kite the spike, but that will never happen.

Pressure/Spike builds are succesfull as they pressure the monks and spike continuously untill the monks start to fail to save the target. The monks dont sit there looking where the warriors are running with their fingers on the rof/infuse key, well maybe if there are 3 monks...

JR · Mar 02, 2006, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Sounds like you play with bad monks.

tafy69 · Mar 02, 2006, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Sounds like you play with bad monks.

Sounds like you havent faced a pressure/spike build or been in one yourself.

Vindexus · Mar 02, 2006, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by tafy69

Sounds like you havent faced a pressure/spike build or been in one yourself.

JR is right.

Greedy Gus · Mar 02, 2006, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I don't honestly think Endure is that great. If they are adren spiking you (a warrior), you should see it coming and kite back towards your monks if you aren't already within healing range. And then endure is not going to help you at all really, your health should not drop low enough for endure to matter. The only thing it is usefull for, is if you are seriously over-extended, and they have you snared... but that should not happen if you play well.

What does playing well have to do with getting snared or galed while overextended? We spike out warriors when we play anyone, top 100 guilds included, and if they have endure we rarely can spike them successfully (because as many have mentioned, it's relatively easy to see if you're going to be spiked, and with the warriors the spike takes long enough to slap on endure). And if we have enough pressure damage and disruption focused on the enemy monks, it's not trivial for them to save people even if they kite back into range.

JR · Mar 02, 2006, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

What does playing well have to do with getting snared or galed while overextended?

Knowing to push up with your warriors, knowing to pre-prot your warriors when they push in, your warriors knowing to be cautious, knowing to shut down whatever is snaring them if possible, knowing not to call targets that you will have to extend to get to.....

Greedy Gus · Mar 02, 2006, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Hence the usefulness of endure pain. It lets you overextend much more easily with relative safety, without relying on pre-prot shatter-bait. Sure you can be extremely cautious with regard to overextension, but are you doing it just because of some random aversion towards taking one skill that is arguably more useful than healing sig in many 8-player builds? I don't understand the line of thinking that "healing sig is for pros and endure pain is for noobs" that has become more common, especially in the mid to top rank guilds who want to emulate the elite guilds, in particular the top korean guilds. Healing signet is a fantastic skill in certain parameters, mostly in regard to the team build as well as the team playstyle, and endure pain is exactly the same. But for some reason, endure gets "spit on" lately, due to some strange moral compunctions.

JR · Mar 02, 2006, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Hence the usefulness of endure pain. It lets you overextend much more easily with relative safety, without relying on pre-prot shatter-bait. Sure you can be extremely cautious with regard to overextension, but are you doing it just because of some random aversion towards taking one skill that is arguably more useful than healing sig in many 8-player builds? I don't understand the line of thinking that "healing sig is for pros and endure pain is for noobs" that has become more common, especially in the mid to top rank guilds who want to emulate the elite guilds, in particular the top korean guilds. Healing signet is a fantastic skill in certain parameters, mostly in regard to the team build as well as the team playstyle, and endure pain is exactly the same. But for some reason, endure gets "spit on" lately, due to some strange moral compunctions.

I will not argue that Endure was a much more powerfull skill in the spike metagame. Now however, untill I see a build that succesfully stop warriors from kiting AND spike them, I will run heal sig. Simply because it is better against pressure style builds. But the simple fact is that in the last fifty plus GvGs I have played, the warriors just haven't needed endure.

Greedy Gus · Mar 02, 2006, 10:30 PM // 22:30

"Needing" endure is a different subject. I would most certainly not argue that position. However, I feel that at least in the builds we run, endure increases the usefulness and ease of effective play for our warriors. Again, it's a whole 8 person team. Don't have a heal party spammer to effectively mop up enemy degen? Don't have martyr to deal with poison/disease? Maybe healing signet might be better.

JR · Mar 02, 2006, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

"Needing" endure is a different subject. I would most certainly not argue that position. However, I feel that at least in the builds we run, endure increases the usefulness and ease of effective play for our warriors.

Indeed, but with limited skill slots you have to ask yourself if anything else merits the use of that slot more than Endure. And I think Heal Sig does.